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PA = penalty area.  So my ball was next to, within 2", of the upward protruding 4" cement wall which marked the PA.  The ball was in the general area, but i could not stand in the GA and take a shot to the green.  I could stand on the wall, entirely in the PA, but with some danger as the drop off into the water below was 8 feet.  I could hit the ball by standing in the GA, but shoot the ball away from the green; this only by a left handed shot.

Do i get free relief from the PA wall, an Immovable Obstruction.?

 

And secondly, if the ball had been laying in the GA but also touching the PA wall, would i get relief in that case?  

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It is a rock solidly correct ruling. You can argue the words in/on  but it will be to an empty room.  The key word is touches.     See Rule 17.1a: When Ball Is in Penalty Area A

It also depends on where the ball lies.  If the ball is not in the PA, and the wall has not been defined as integral, and the player is not using an abnormal stance or stroke, and nothing else prevent

47 minutes ago, jobin said:

PA = penalty area.  So my ball was next to, within 2", of the upward protruding 4" cement wall which marked the PA.  The ball was in the general area, but i could not stand in the GA and take a shot to the green.  I could stand on the wall, entirely in the PA, but with some danger as the drop off into the water below was 8 feet.  I could hit the ball by standing in the GA, but shoot the ball away from the green; this only by a left handed shot.

Do i get free relief from the PA wall, an Immovable Obstruction.?

 

And secondly, if the ball had been laying in the GA but also touching the PA wall, would i get relief in that case?  

 

I think it depends on the status of the wall and/or where it is (in or out of the PA).

 

Were there any red stakes or red lines defining the PA ?

 

You call it a "PA Wall". Does the course/committee define the wall as the PA boundary ?

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2 hours ago, jobin said:

PA = penalty area.  So my ball was next to, within 2", of the upward protruding 4" cement wall which marked the PA.  The ball was in the general area, but i could not stand in the GA and take a shot to the green.  I could stand on the wall, entirely in the PA, but with some danger as the drop off into the water below was 8 feet.  I could hit the ball by standing in the GA, but shoot the ball away from the green; this only by a left handed shot.

Do i get free relief from the PA wall, an Immovable Obstruction.?

 

And secondly, if the ball had been laying in the GA but also touching the PA wall, would i get relief in that case?  

 

1. If your ball is not in the PA, you may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction which is in the PA.  

2. If your ball is in the PA you do not get relief from an immovable obstruction whether in or outside the PA.

3.  If your ball is touching a stake, line  or in this case wall defining the margin of the PA, it is in the PA not the General Area.

 

There are circumstances whereby you can be denied relief as mentioned above, but these three basic points give the answer yes to your first question and no to your second.

 

 

Edited by Colin L
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That # 3 item concerns me.  For example, if a ball  rests obviously on the green, but is touching a leaf that grows from the margin (off the green) but that leaf extends on towards the green and is touching the ball, then you will tell me the ball is 'off the green'? 

I see that in my case, the ball obviously is resting in the GA but is touching a PA boundary indentifier obstruction, therefore my ball is in the PA?  IMO, not a good ruling.

I guess we can argue the word "in/on".

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If the ball is touching anything defined as PA then there is no relief, it is that simple. Getting into putting green issues is unrelated and unhelpful discussion. If the ball is not touching the wall and not in the PA, then relief is available unless something other than the wall prevents a stroke being made.

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51 minutes ago, antip said:

If the ball is touching anything defined as PA then there is no relief, it is that simple. Getting into putting green issues is unrelated and unhelpful discussion. If the ball is not touching the wall and not in the PA, then relief is available unless something other than the wall prevents a stroke being made.

All of this.

 

PA on a putting green? Please. 

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I used to belong to a Pete Dye designed course that, typically, used a lot of railroad ties. The course was good about marking PAs and the railroad ties were within the margins of the PA. Due to "too much confusion" as to when relief was or was not permitted, they made all railroad ties integral to the course eliminating relief under any circumstances. For any fairly serious golfer there was no "confusion", ball in the PA no relief, ball outside the PA relief permitted.

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7 hours ago, jobin said:

That # 3 item concerns me.  For example, if a ball  rests obviously on the green, but is touching a leaf that grows from the margin (off the green) but that leaf extends on towards the green and is touching the ball, then you will tell me the ball is 'off the green'? I see that in my case, the ball obviously is resting in the GA but is touching a PA boundary indentifier obstruction, therefore my ball is in the PA?  IMO, not a good ruling.

I guess we can argue the word "in/on".

It is a rock solidly correct ruling. You can argue the words in/on  but it will be to an empty room.  The key word is touches

 

 See Rule 17.1a:

When Ball Is in Penalty Area

A ball is in a penalty area when any part of the ball:

  • Lies on or touches the ground or anything else (such as any natural or artificial object) inside the edge of the penalty area, or
  • Is above the edge or any other part of the penalty area.
Edited by Colin L
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7 hours ago, jobin said:

That # 3 item concerns me.  For example, if a ball  rests obviously on the green, but is touching a leaf that grows from the margin (off the green) but that leaf extends on towards the green and is touching the ball, then you will tell me the ball is 'off the green'? 

 

 

I wonder where you got that idea from. Not from Colin's post, that's for sure.

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7 hours ago, jobin said:

I guess we can argue the word "in/on".

The Rules are pretty specific in defining the various areas of the course, exactly where the limits of each one are, and how to decide where the ball lies.  There's really no room to argue.

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