2021 LPGA Drive On Championship (Mar 04 - 07)

[Golf Dino]

56 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

For a year yes. It is very good. For a single round? It is good but not great. Not in a round with just(for a pro) 12 greens hit.

 

To see how it all correlates see the link below. Most of the record lowest putts for one PGA tour event were not great finishes.

 

https://www.pga.com/archive/fewest-number-of-putts-in-72-hole-pga-tour-event

 

Of course ... you missed the point of the conversation about 28 putts in one round for Henderson ... Of course, some of the best putting rounds statistically speaking are the result of lots of missed greens ... how else would you have so many one-putts -- either through a smoking hot putter/round or lots of 1 putts via chips etc. from missed greens. 

 

 

[18majors]

7 hours ago, Golf Dino said:

how else would you have so many one-putts -- either through a smoking hot putter/round or lots of 1 putts via chips etc. from missed greens. 

 

 

Precisely!

[Argonne69]

All the more reason to tour should have scrambling stats on their websites. I don't need to know who leads the tour in aces. Pfffttt. 

 

[Shilgy]

9 hours ago, Golf Dino said:

 

Of course ... you missed the point of the conversation about 28 putts in one round for Henderson ... Of course, some of the best putting rounds statistically speaking are the result of lots of missed greens ... how else would you have so many one-putts -- either through a smoking hot putter/round or lots of 1 putts via chips etc. from missed greens. 

 

 

That was the point in the Henderson round. She missed 6 greens and was 8 putts better than par (two per hole). Even with a couple par fives in two that’s only 4 better than par. 

[Golf Dino]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

That was the point in the Henderson round. She missed 6 greens and was 8 putts better than par (two per hole). Even with a couple par fives in two that’s only 4 better than par. 

 

Again, you skimmed by the point.  Specifically, 28 putts statistically speaking is a good round of putting.  Consider that number on its own.  That's the entire point.  Hence, a putting average of 28.00 per round is excellent! Or more specifically, if you could make 28 putts per round for an entire season, you'd be one of the best putters on tour year in and year out.  

[Stooch]

I stayed out of this one as I hate 3-putts more than anything and when you have 2 of them in a round, I find it hard to make any positive case about putting.  That said on this round I would say Brooke's putting was a net neutral, meaning the putter didn't help her score but also didn't really change it.

 

Lets start with getting the facts of the round correct, I followed every hole that round on the scorecard.

So Brooke was:

9/18 greens in reg.

28 putts

7/9 scrambling

nine 1 putts

two 3-putts

4 bogeys and 2 birdies

only failed to get up and down 1 time that round ( I guess you can argue 2 but the putter had nothing to do with 1 of them)

 

So an even par round should have had 27 putts, theoretically.  She was one over that.  I call her putting net neutral this round cause yes she was +2 with the 3-putts but her scrambling was close to 80% well above her norm.  Maybe I'm going out on a limb but I'm going with yes she lost 2 strokes putting with the 3-putts but I'm thinking she made them back scrambling with at least 2/7 being putts she doesn't normally statistically make to save her pars that round.  Again IMO, it was the iron and wedge play that was the problem, the putting just did nothing to help her on this day.  I actually don't even think this round was her worse putting round of the week. lol

[Golf Dino]

5 hours ago, Stooch said:

I stayed out of this one as I hate 3-putts more than anything and when you have 2 of them in a round, I find it hard to make any positive case about putting.  That said on this round I would say Brooke's putting was a net neutral, meaning the putter didn't help her score but also didn't really change it.

 

Lets start with getting the facts of the round correct, I followed every hole that round on the scorecard.

So Brooke was:

9/18 greens in reg.

28 putts

7/9 scrambling

nine 1 putts

two 3-putts

4 bogeys and 2 birdies

only failed to get up and down 1 time that round ( I guess you can argue 2 but the putter had nothing to do with 1 of them)

 

So an even par round should have had 27 putts, theoretically.  She was one over that.  I call her putting net neutral this round cause yes she was +2 with the 3-putts but her scrambling was close to 80% well above her norm.  Maybe I'm going out on a limb but I'm going with yes she lost 2 strokes putting with the 3-putts but I'm thinking she made them back scrambling with at least 2/7 being putts she doesn't normally statistically make to save her pars that round.  Again IMO, it was the iron and wedge play that was the problem, the putting just did nothing to help her on this day.  I actually don't even think this round was her worse putting round of the week. lol

 

No.  You're right -- The next two rounds, her putts per round "ballooned" to 31 putts.     It was implied that 28 putts is not good.  My point is that 28 putts, when considered in isolation, is a good number for putts. Is 26 better?  Of course.  Is 20 putts even better?  yes, naturally.  The other point I was trying to make was that the rest of the game can cause the score to drop to below par or blow it up (as any Sunday recreational player can attest to)  ... but that 28 putts in and of itself was not the problem.  

 

Now the Brooke context was another matter. 

[ChronicSlicer]

17 hours ago, Golf Dino said:

 

Of course ... you missed the point of the conversation about 28 putts in one round for Henderson ... Of course, some of the best putting rounds statistically speaking are the result of lots of missed greens ... how else would you have so many one-putts -- either through a smoking hot putter/round or lots of 1 putts via chips etc. from missed greens. 

 

 

I know that missed green and low putt total oh too well..lol

[Shilgy]

55 minutes ago, Golf Dino said:

 

No.  You're right -- The next two rounds, her putts per round "ballooned" to 31 putts.     It was implied that 28 putts is not good.  My point is that 28 putts, when considered in isolation, is a good number for putts. Is 26 better?  Of course.  Is 20 putts even better?  yes, naturally.  The other point I was trying to make was that the rest of the game can cause the score to drop to below par or blow it up (as any Sunday recreational player can attest to)  ... but that 28 putts in and of itself was not the problem.  

 

Now the Brooke context was another matter. 

My only argument....well ok I had a couple lol...was the total score you calculated AND the fact you called a 28 putt round “very good”.  I agreed averaging 28 putts for a season would be very good however the 28 putt round, in isolation, would only be an average round for that player. They are not going to have 28 putts every single round so they would have some more and some less.

This whole idea , as has been discussed, is really nonsensical anyways. In isolation the total putts stat means absolutely nothing. 28 putts when hitting every green in regulation would be a good day on tour.  Having 28 putts on a day where only 6 greens were hit would not be good.

[Golf Dino]

21 hours ago, Shilgy said:

My only argument....well ok I had a couple lol...was the total score you calculated AND the fact you called a 28 putt round “very good”.  I agreed averaging 28 putts for a season would be very good however the 28 putt round, in isolation, would only be an average round for that player. They are not going to have 28 putts every single round so they would have some more and some less.

This whole idea , as has been discussed, is really nonsensical anyways. In isolation the total putts stat means absolutely nothing. 28 putts when hitting every green in regulation would be a good day on tour.  Having 28 putts on a day where only 6 greens were hit would not be good.

 

Yes, @Shilgy ... I must really stop rushing through some things ... and as mentioned before, I did on this occasion ... I don't usually make these errors, but since I've come back from the covid illness (being such a long layoff), I am swamped and have been trying to get so much done is so little time ... and I paid a price for it.   

 

As for considering putts only in isolation ... there is some merit to considering in isolation as it is a single "variable" that one can focus on and improve, but context is important too simply because of all of the other factors.  Again, the point I was making was that it was implied that 28 putts (in and of itself or in isolation) was a poor round of putting on Henderson's part.   I have been very vocal over the years that her putting is not only her Achilles heel, its her Achilles back!    

 

[Shilgy]

23 minutes ago, Golf Dino said:

 

Yes, @Shilgy ... I must really stop rushing through some things ... and as mentioned before, I did on this occasion ... I don't usually make these errors, but since I've come back from the covid illness (being such a long layoff), I am swamped and have been trying to get so much done is so little time ... and I paid a price for it.   

 

As for considering putts only in isolation ... there is some merit to considering in isolation as it is a single "variable" that one can focus on and improve, but context is important too simply because of all of the other factors.  Again, the point I was making was that it was implied that 28 putts (in and of itself or in isolation) was a poor round of putting on Henderson's part.   I have been very vocal over the years that her putting is not only her Achilles heel, its her Achilles back!    

 

Well said, and wishes for good health going forward.

[Argonne69]

Lol. We probably need a separate thread to discuss the rocket science calculations regarding putting and scrambling without scrambling and/or proximity to the hole data from the tour.

 

Again, this would be so much easier with scrambling data, and/or proximity to the hole. Is a player a poor putter, or simply leaving themselves low percentage putts? Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

Lol. We probably need a separate thread to discuss the rocket science calculations regarding putting and scrambling without scrambling and/or proximity to the hole data from the tour.

 

Again, this would be so much easier with scrambling data, and/or proximity to the hole. Is a player a poor putter, or simply leaving themselves low percentage putts? Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

That's a place where the PGA tour could help the LPGA.  Have the contract with Shotlink extended to include the LPGA.  Advanced metrics would add a bit of interest to the ladies play.

[Argonne69]

16 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That's a place where the PGA tour could help the LPGA.  Have the contract with Shotlink extended to include the LPGA.  Advanced metrics would add a bit of interest to the ladies play.

 

I could have swore that the LPGA was going to have a Shotlink(-type) data stream this year. I recall reading about it, but perhaps the pandemic blew that out of the water. 

 

I also recall having an email conversation with an LPGA official who said that scrambling stats were going to be available with an updated website design. Still waiting. They have the data, so I have no idea why we don't get it on the website. 

 

[Golf Dino]

 

When recently asked, both Beth Ann Nichols and Sophie Walker about being the new LPGA Commissioner and what they would focus on.  

 

Besides more and improved TV coverage, etc., one of Beth Ann's biggest issues was the paucity of data on the LPGA tour ... and the need for Shotlink or something similar.  Sophie mentioned something about the LPGA looking into a partnership with Arccos Golf.  

 

Regardless, the data is long overdue.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Golf Dino

[Stooch]

17 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

 

I could have swore that the LPGA was going to have a Shotlink(-type) data stream this year. I recall reading about it, but perhaps the pandemic blew that out of the water. 

 

I also recall having an email conversation with an LPGA official who said that scrambling stats were going to be available with an updated website design. Still waiting. They have the data, so I have no idea why we don't get it on the website. 

 

 

The only reason why IMO is with the top it's probably fine but maybe the bottom 2/3 to 1/2 of the players these stats aren't very flattering when compared to their PGA counterparts.   This kinda bares out when they hit a very windy event, you end up with almost 2/3 of the field getting embarrassed, just look at last season's Volunteer's of America event as evidence.

[MagicClassic407]

53 minutes ago, Stooch said:

 

The only reason why IMO is with the top it's probably fine but maybe the bottom 2/3 to 1/2 of the players these stats aren't very flattering when compared to their PGA counterparts.   This kinda bares out when they hit a very windy event, you end up with almost 2/3 of the field getting embarrassed, just look at last season's Volunteer's of America event as evidence.

Sooo...... c'est la vie.🤷‍♀️

[Argonne69]

2 hours ago, Stooch said:

 

The only reason why IMO is with the top it's probably fine but maybe the bottom 2/3 to 1/2 of the players these stats aren't very flattering when compared to their PGA counterparts.   This kinda bares out when they hit a very windy event, you end up with almost 2/3 of the field getting embarrassed, just look at last season's Volunteer's of America event as evidence.

 

Well, the driving distance stats are probably less than flattering compared to the PGA. Lol. They still have them on the website. 

[Stooch]

41 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Well, the driving distance stats are probably less than flattering compared to the PGA. Lol. They still have them on the website. 

I guess if you expect women to hit as far as men on average, then yes it could be perceived as unflattering.  To me scrambling is kinda gender neutral sorta skill.  What I'm really saying that's different from the PGA, is on the LPGA outside the Top 50 (unless you're on the rise) talent difference between top and bottom is night and day.

[Argonne69]

3 hours ago, Stooch said:

I guess if you expect women to hit as far as men on average, then yes it could be perceived as unflattering.  To me scrambling is kinda gender neutral sorta skill.  What I'm really saying that's different from the PGA, is on the LPGA outside the Top 50 (unless you're on the rise) talent difference between top and bottom is night and day.

 

Honestly I'd need to see the LPGA stats to draw that conclusion. In 2019, the 125th ranked player in scoring average had an average score of 72.54, but averaged 12 GIRs. One doesn't average a hair over par with only 12 greens a round without a decent short game.

 

[18majors]

29 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Honestly I'd need to see the LPGA stats to draw that conclusion. In 2019, the 125th ranked player in scoring average had an average score of 72.54, but averaged 12 GIRs. One doesn't average a hair over par with only 12 greens a round without a decent short game.

 

 

 

I totally agree with you!

 

I followed Rory McIlroy (TV, Shot Tracker and TOURcast) and Yealimi Noh (LPGA.com data) on almost every hole of every tournament they played.  I know Rory is in a slump but he's world No. 1 as recent as one year ago.

 

There isn't a question who scrambles better, and it isn't Rory.  Grantly, the sample size is small and the roughs around the greens are not the same but it gives some ideas.

 

By the way, it's easy to get scrambling data just by comparing the number of greens missed and bogeys made.

 

[Argonne69]

12 minutes ago, 18majors said:

 

By the way, it's easy to get scrambling data just by comparing the number of greens missed and bogeys made.

 

 

Close, but not exact. Doesn't account for a GIR and 3 putt.

[18majors]

43 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Close, but not exact. Doesn't account for a GIR and 3 putt.

 

 

LPGA.com media guide provides 3-putt information everyday.

 

Also, I knew when Yealimi 3 putted by following her stat hole by hole.  I'm sure @Stooch does the same with Brooke.

 

But in any case, most players have two or less 3-putt holes for all four rounds.  Brooke's six 3-putts at Drive On is a very unusual exception.

Edited March 13, 2021 by 18majors

[Argonne69]

17 minutes ago, 18majors said:

 

 

LPGA.com media guide provides 3-putt information everyday.

 

Also, I knew when Yealimi 3 putted by following her stat hole by hole.  I'm sure @Stooch does the same with Brooke.

 

But in any case, most players have less than two 3-putt holes for all four rounds.  Brooke's six 3-putts at Drive On is a very unusual exception.

 

Even a single three putt can significantly change the percentage. For example, a player misses four greens and gets up and down four times. Scrambling is 100%. However, a single bogie due to a three putt changes makes it appear that they only got up and down three times for 75%. 

 

Also, a player can have a missed green and a three putt when they score double or worse. 

 

The tour has the scrambling stats. Publish it already so we don't have to muck around. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Argonne69

[18majors]

18 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Even a single three putt can significantly change the percentage. For example, a player misses four greens and gets up and down four times. Scrambling is 100%. However, a single bogie due to a three putt changes makes it appear that they only got up and down three times for 75%. 

 

Also, a player can have a missed green and a three putt when they score double or worse. 

 

The tour has the scrambling stats. Publish it already so we don't have to muck around. 

 

The only thing I can say is all data are there if you’re interested to find out.

[Stooch]

1 hour ago, 18majors said:

 

 

 

 

By the way, it's easy to get scrambling data just by comparing the number of greens missed and bogeys made.

 

Yes, but also very inaccurate.  I tend to define scrambling as getting up and down, meaning a chip/pitch and a putt, that may not be correct but it's how I define it.  Down thread you had mention in the Brooke putting discussion she had 8 one putts which is a logical conclusion if didn't follow hole by hole.  On the par 5 12th, she had a 1 putt bogey (12th was master par 5 replica hole), now I'm not sure about the mess made whether she hit in the water or not but she did hit the green with her 5th shot and then made a putt, so that's getting up and down and scrambling well but I'm sure others will disagree.  It also could be she miss hit her 4th around the green but couldn't stay on it which is a failed scrambling attempt, which sorta proves the inaccuracy.  Plus say on a par 5 you hit your 3rd in the bunker and get up and down for par, you like me would probably assume the player 2 putt for par and we'd be wrong as it was a scrambling save.

 

[Titleist_PT23]

7 hours ago, 18majors said:

 

The only thing I can say is all data are there if you’re interested to find out.

I could never get this to tie out exactly.  I tried taking GIR, missed GIR, and solving for the save percentage on the missed GIR to get the scoring average to tie out (after taking birdie rate out of the GIR).  Eagles and doubles weren't accounted for though.  Neither were three putts if I recall correctly.

 

I also tried taking total putts - GIR x putts per GIR and estimating the save percentage based on missed GIR but it still didn't seem to work very well.

 

Maybe there's more data now or a better way to do it...

[18majors]

@Stooch , @agolf1

 

Let's go to HBS (Harvard Business School) and do some case studies.

 

Yealimi Noh at Drive On

Round 3                                         2 birdies, 4 bogeys and 1 double

Round 4                                         5 birdies, 1 bogey

 

According to LPGA Media Guide:

                                                                                           Round 3                                          Round 4

Fairways Hit                                                                         11/14                                                11/14

Greens Hit                                                                             9/18                                                10/18

Sand Saves                                                                            2/3                                                   1/1

Driving Average                                                                    248.5                                              256.5

Putts                                                                                       29                                                    25

GIR/Putts                                                                             17/1.89                                             16/1.60

3-Putts                                                                                    1                                                       0                                                                      

Score                                                                                      76                                                     68

To Par                                                                                    +4                                                     -4

 

Round 4

10 GIR's, 5 birdies:                                                  16 putts; four 1-putt birdies, one 2-putt birdie at a Par 5

8 Missed Greens, 1 bogey:                                     9 putts; seven 1-putt greens, one 2-putt 

 

Round 3

9 GIR's, 2 birdies and 1 bogey:                              17 putts, two 1-putt birdies, one 3-putt bogey

9 Missed Greens, 3 bogeys/1 double:                  12 putts, Six 1-putt greens (five for pars, one for bogey or double), three 2-putts

 

     

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by 18majors

[North Texas]

12 hours ago, 18majors said:

 

The only thing I can say is all data are there if you’re interested to find out.

 

Okay, tell us where it is 🙂

[Titleist_PT23]

1 hour ago, 18majors said:

@Stooch , @agolf1

 

Let's go to HBS (Harvard Business School) and do some case studies.

 

Yealimi Noh at Drive On

Round 3                                         2 birdies, 4 bogeys and 1 double

Round 4                                         5 birdies, 1 bogey

 

According to LPGA Media Guide:

                                                                                           Round 3                                          Round 4

Fairways Hit                                                                         11/14                                                11/14

Greens Hit                                                                             9/18                                                10/18

Sand Saves                                                                            2/3                                                   1/1

Driving Average                                                                    248.5                                              256.5

Putts                                                                                       29                                                    25

GIR/Putts                                                                             17/1.89                                             16/1.60

3-Putts                                                                                    1                                                       0                                                                      

Score                                                                                      76                                                     68

To Par                                                                                    +4                                                     -4

 

Round 4

10 GIR's, 5 birdies:                                                  16 putts; four 1-putt birdies, one 2-putt birdie at a Par 5

8 Missed Greens, 1 bogey:                                     9 putts; seven 1-putt greens, one 2-putt 

 

Round 3

9 GIR's, 2 birdies and 1 bogey:                              17 putts, two 1-putt birdies, one 3-putt bogey

9 Missed Greens, 3 bogeys/1 double:                  12 putts, Six 1-putt greens (five for pars, one for bogey or double), three 2-putts

 

     

 

 

 

For any specific round if you have the detail you can do it.  But the season stats (at least on the website), don't have this level of detail.