Thoughts on setting up the round with a drive-able par4....

[bvan]

I like the idea of a drive-able par4 for each round, even the PGA is doing it now.

 

What are your thoughts here and at what distance is it fun for everyone? I'm thinking 240-260 to keep everyone interested.....

[cardoustie]

Like Weiskopf I think every good course should have the following

 

- a high risk driveable par 4

 

And

 

I love

 

- one really short par 3

- and a deadly short par 5

 

I played the other day and every par 3 was between 190 and 210 .. C’MON !!!!

[bvan]

I don't mind the longer par3s but the guys i play with do. Also courses combat 'short' yardage appearances by making those long par3s(200+) and crazy long par4s(450+). Again, I don't mind them but the group I play with would struggle if a par5 was 475yds let alone a par4....

 

The card should have at least one hole circled as a drive-able 4 marked so you know where it is. And do not make it the first hole!

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by bvan

[Abh159]

I've always loved a fun, high risk-reward drivable par 4. For me I like it to be a hole that you pretty much either make eagle or bogey if you try to go for it. I find it pointless if it's just an easy up and down for birdie type of hole. 

 

That's really the only thing my club is missing in my opinion. We have some great long and short par 3's as well as a handful of reachable par 5's, but all of the par 4's are between 375 - 475 yards.

 

 

[jvincent]

2 hours ago, bvan said:

I like the idea of a drive-able par4 for each round, even the PGA is doing it now.

 

What are your thoughts here and at what distance is it fun for everyone? I'm thinking 240-260 to keep everyone interested.....

 

Assuming 240-260 is more or less in everyone's wheelhouse that's a good distance.  In our captain's scramble they set up one of the par 4s to be drivable and everyone always goes for it.

 

Ideally you'd choose the drivable hole such that there is trouble around the green if they go for it so that there is a certain amount of risk.

[b.mattay]

2 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Like Weiskopf I think every good course should have the following

 

- a high risk driveable par 4

 

And

 

I love

 

- one really short par 3

- and a deadly short par 5

 

I played the other day and every par 3 was between 190 and 210 .. C’MON !!!!

Add in one brutal par 4 and you're set! 

I love courses that have the following four holes: 

1.) Driveable 4 

2.) Short 3, ideally with heavy bunkering/slope

3.) Short 5 with trouble 

4.) Beastly 4

 

Very neat when 3.) and 4.) kind of both play like par 4.5's! 

[Argonne69]

Combo, combo, combo. If one isn't playing in a tournament, then create your own. Plenty of fun to be had by mixing up the lengths to make things interesting. 

 

[ND2005]

5 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Like Weiskopf I think every good course should have the following

 

- a high risk driveable par 4

 

And

 

I love

 

- one really short par 3

- and a deadly short par 5

 

I played the other day and every par 3 was between 190 and 210 .. C’MON !!!!

 

I agree with all these principles.

 

Par 3s should vary in length /shot selection and I'd agree with you one should be a challenging short Par 3, under 150ish at least. 

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

@cardoustie said what I was thinking and agree with the following:

- one really short par 3

- and a deadly short par 5

 

Unfortunately, designers have their quirkiness.  Thankfully, I can still handle long Par 3's using irons.

 

Except, even when my driver distance or conditions are satisfactory to reach the Par 4 green, I most likely will play it regulation.  Course mgt always wins out, unless $$$$ forces me to gamble to win.  😛

 

@Argonne69 I agree, Combos are nice, but to posting may require a CPAs skills.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Argonne69]

16 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

 

@Argonne69 I agree, Combos are nice, but to posting may require a CPAs skills.

 

Lol. CPA skills? More like 5th grade math skills. 

[TheDominator273]

The hole has to be designed to be driveable for it to really work.  Sure it could be fun to setup a Par 4 in driveable range for a fun event, but beyond that you lose a lot of nuance in strategy if the hole isn't designed to be risk reward going for the green while providing other options.

[Pepperturbo]

5 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Lol. CPA skills? More like 5th grade math skills. 

Call it what you will, but Combo posting is seldom an option at most courses that I play, and I play quite a few in SOCA, AZ, TX and HI.  Many courses that have combo tees only have them as a response to locals.  Being able to post combo scores requires those tees to be rated, and that costs money. 

[azmx]

51 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Call it what you will, but Combo posting is seldom an option at most courses that I play, and I play quite a few in SOCA, AZ, TX and HI.  Many courses that have combo tees only have them as a response to locals.  Being able to post combo scores requires those tees to be rated, and that costs money. 

This is false. From the Oregon Golf Association's site:

"With Combo tees, we need to have the golf course inform us of which tees they would like to use on a regular basis. While we encourage the use of Combo tees, we would not force any course to use them. Since each set of measured tees is rated individually, it is a quick and simple process to get a proper Course/Slope Rating. When the Combo tee info is sent to OGA, it takes about 5 minutes to enter the new info into the system. It will show up in GHIN for posting in 4 hours or less. The only hitch is if the Course Rating team is out of the office on a rating trip.

The financial impact to the course is minimal with Combo tees. No new tee boxes are constructed. No special markers are necessary. They just need to update their scorecard to indicate which tee is used on which hole. Or print up a simple hole-by-hole sheet for the golfers to use. Some courses will put a marker on the tee box that shows combo tees such as painting one of the markers with both colors."

It is also very easy to calculate for yourself.  Do you need a link to find this?  I thought it was common knowledge but I'm glad to provide one if you need one.

[Pepperturbo]

4 minutes ago, azmx said:

This is false. From the Oregon Golf Association's site:

"With Combo tees, we need to have the golf course inform us of which tees they would like to use on a regular basis. While we encourage the use of Combo tees, we would not force any course to use them. Since each set of measured tees is rated individually, it is a quick and simple process to get a proper Course/Slope Rating. When the Combo tee info is sent to OGA, it takes about 5 minutes to enter the new info into the system. It will show up in GHIN for posting in 4 hours or less. The only hitch is if the Course Rating team is out of the office on a rating trip.

The financial impact to the course is minimal with Combo tees. No new tee boxes are constructed. No special markers are necessary. They just need to update their scorecard to indicate which tee is used on which hole. Or print up a simple hole-by-hole sheet for the golfers to use. Some courses will put a marker on the tee box that shows combo tees such as painting one of the markers with both colors."

It is also very easy to calculate for yourself.  Do you need a link to find this?  I thought it was common knowledge but I'm glad to provide one if you need one.

You're thinking what happens in Oregon, and in its golf association is the same in every state, NOT true.  You have a good day.

[Argonne69]

Right. I posted self-made combo scores for years. 

 

[azmx]

Just now, Pepperturbo said:

You're thinking what happens in Oregon, and in its golf association is the same in every state, NOT true.  You have a good day.

I'm sorry.  Did you forget to add a link where you confirm that you can't post from unrated tees in a state?

[azmx]

And while he looks for that link that doesn't exist, I encourage you all to go and see for yourself.  You simply manually input the slope and rating based on the adjustment formula that is well known and requires basic addition and subtraction.  Fire up the GHIN website and take a look.  It is right there.

[Pepperturbo]

Just now, azmx said:

I'm sorry.  Did you forget to add a link where you confirm that you can't post from unrated tees in a state?

No, I didn't forget.  Just not interested in discussing the topic with you!

[Hawkeye77]

On 3/2/2021 at 10:08 AM, bvan said:

I like the idea of a drive-able par4 for each round, even the PGA is doing it now.

 

What are your thoughts here and at what distance is it fun for everyone? I'm thinking 240-260 to keep everyone interested.....

Are you playing tees the course already has set up? Not saying you have to but not every course has such a hole nor is an interesting one necessarily found just because a certain box matches up with that distance.

 

Definitely love the idea of at least one, but just a 250 yard hole call it a par 4 and nothing about it that really makes it challenging then I don't see the point.

[dlygrisse]

On 3/2/2021 at 10:12 AM, cardoustie said:

Like Weiskopf I think every good course should have the following

 

- a high risk driveable par 4

 

And

 

I love

 

- one really short par 3

- and a deadly short par 5

 

I played the other day and every par 3 was between 190 and 210 .. C’MON !!!!

uuugh, I know a course like that .....so boring.  In fact more than one long par 3 a round is too many.  

 

Every good design should have a short/mid/long Par 3,4,5.  That's 1/2 the holes, do what you want with the rest of them.  The "tweener" holes always seem to be the most interesting, and the short ones.  Think of Augusta, #12,13,15,16 are all very exciting.  The 17th at the Old Course, used to be considered a par 5, now the best par 4 in the world by many.  The drivable par 4's are great if you don't have too many of them, they do tend to slow down play as too many people think they can get there and play it as a par 3, but short risk/reward par 4's and short par 3's, especially downhill and over water always seem to be the most fun holes.  

 

The key to a good short par 4 is making it look easy, but if you hit it off line or the wrong angle the hole becomes a difficult 4 real quick, whether it's a hazard or just a tough shot out of the rough over a bunker to a tight pin that makes that decision to go for it meaningful.  

[dlygrisse]

15 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Are you playing tees the course already has set up? Not saying you have to but not every course has such a hole nor is an interesting one necessarily found just because a certain box matches up with that distance.

 

Definitely love the idea of at least one, but just a 250 yard hole call it a par 4 and nothing about it that really makes it challenging then I don't see the point.

That distance makes sense at the local club from the member tees, and it should be risk/reward.  It seems a drivable par 4 on tour now needs to be at least 300 or they will be hitting 3 wood, and it's really a par 3.  The other thing you need to remember if a hole is 300, it's probably only 280 or so to the front of the green, still a 3 wood for many of these guys.  It needs to be a legit driver for the majority of the players to be considered a par 4.  

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

That distance makes sense at the local club from the member tees, and it should be risk/reward.  It seems a drivable par 4 on tour now needs to be at least 300 or they will be hitting 3 wood, and it's really a par 3.  The other thing you need to remember if a hole is 300, it's probably only 280 or so to the front of the green, still a 3 wood for many of these guys.  It needs to be a legit driver for the majority of the players to be considered a par 4.  

Totally agree - that 240-260 just happens to work for me, lol! 😀

[Hawkeye77]

Here’s ours - not finished with the hole details yet in the book I’m working on. Elevated tee but fairway works down and back up to the green which is elevated and same elevation as tee but doesn’t appear to be. The trees by the water are very tall and block the view of 1/3 of the green from the tee but easy to clear. Anything left is mostly dead, right is rough and plenty of room to miss there, green is small and big slope back to front. Plays into the prevailing wind during the season most of the time. Guys that hit 3w or even a hybrid that far when they can don’t hit the green with regularity. I’m experimenting with something 190 ish off the tee this spring. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[ryu123]

Hawkeye77,   your 245 yd par 4 looks interesting.   (What are those sphincter-ish things on both sides of the green?) 

[mallrat]

On 3/2/2021 at 8:08 AM, bvan said:

I like the idea of a drive-able par4 for each round, even the PGA is doing it now.

 

What are your thoughts here and at what distance is it fun for everyone? I'm thinking 240-260 to keep everyone interested.....

 

The problem with this is a pace of play issue. As someone who does a course set up 3-5 days a week, and lives the idea, it would be a killer time wise. Everyone would go for it and the average score would probably be a 6. So basically it’s a par 3 with an extra 5 minute wait. 
 

Also I would say 260 - 280 would be a better distance. In the shoulder/wet seasons drivers into greens would leave some horrendous ball marks. 

[mallrat]

On 3/2/2021 at 8:12 AM, cardoustie said:

Like Weiskopf I think every good course should have the following

 

- a high risk driveable par 4

 

And

 

I love

 

- one really short par 3

- and a deadly short par 5

 

I played the other day and every par 3 was between 190 and 210 .. C’MON !!!!

My course isn’t the greatest golf architecture masterpiece but it is fun and playable. We are really known for 2 holes one is a par 3 that with the furthest pin and tees as far back as possible plays 131 but is generally around 120 from the tips. It is a long skinny green that is in a volcano hole/green that is nicknamed the shortest par 5 in Oregon. 
 

I love our Par 3’s. One is no more than a PW, a 7 iron, 6 iron and a 4 iron/hybrid. 

 

On 3/3/2021 at 1:17 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Call it what you will, but Combo posting is seldom an option at most courses that I play, and I play quite a few in SOCA, AZ, TX and HI.  Many courses that have combo tees only have them as a response to locals.  Being able to post combo scores requires those tees to be rated, and that costs money. 

Not saying it’s the norm but the majority of Oregon courses started doing this a couple years ago. Your above response kind of surprised me because honestly I thought it would be more widespread. My course even went from a color system of tees to a number system with the odd numbers being the combos. It even includes a combo with the forward tees and the jr tees. 

[Hawkeye77]

On 3/4/2021 at 11:25 AM, ryu123 said:

Hawkeye77,   your 245 yd par 4 looks interesting.   (What are those sphincter-ish things on both sides of the green?) 

Haha, clusters of trees!  

[Argonne69]

19 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Haha, clusters of trees!  

 

I dunno. A few sarlacc pits on a driveable par 4 would add an interesting twist. Lol. 

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 3/6/2021 at 7:01 AM, mallrat said:

 

The problem with this is a pace of play issue. As someone who does a course set up 3-5 days a week, and lives the idea, it would be a killer time wise. Everyone would go for it and the average score would probably be a 6. So basically it’s a par 3 with an extra 5 minute wait. 
 

Also I would say 260 - 280 would be a better distance. In the shoulder/wet seasons drivers into greens would leave some horrendous ball marks. 

 

I wonder if you could get around it with some kind of wave-up system. IE suppose a flagstick were placed on the ground at the tee and if the group on the tee raised the flagstick it would signal the group in front that they intend to attempt to drive the green.

 

The group in front, upon reaching the green, would look back, see the flagstick, stand aside and let the following group go for the green, before returning to putt out. The group behind puts the flagstick back on the ground, and off you go.

 

I would think especially at a private club if the members got on board with such a system it could work. Golfers are a pretty rule following bunch anyway; it might even be possible at a public course. Or perhaps something could be done to better refine it.

[ryu123]

Hawkeye,  I think your design could work.  The stream would prevent some players from laying short & right of the green.   That would make the tee shot quite important, as opposed to a routine 190 yd lay up.