Apex shafts

[TheDeanAbides]

So I've just taken delivery of a set of Apex FTX with Apex 3s in them. If I compare them to the Apex 2s in my '72s they seem softer. Is it generally recognised that the newer version is a little softer than the originals?

[stevehj]

There were multiple shafts offered in Hogan irons.  There was a number on the shaft label and this is how they were defined:

3 = regular

4 = stiff

5 = x-stiff

 

Can you see the number on any of the shaft labels in your Apex II's?

[Joe S]

6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

So I've just taken delivery of a set of Apex FTX with Apex 3s in them. If I compare them to the Apex 2s in my '72s they seem softer. Is it generally recognised that the newer version is a little softer than the originals?

 

I've heard people say that later shafts were softer than the earlier ones.  A newer 3 compared to older 3, for example.  Originally they were manufactured by True Temper and at some point manufacturing was changed to Precision and that's when they allegedly changed.  I've never noticed a difference myself.   There is no reason that Precision couldn't manufacture to the same specifications and I don't know why Hogan would change the design.  But, it is true that the consensus on these forums seems to be that the newer Apex's are softer than the older ones. 

 

I would be really surprised if the newer 3 was softer than the older 2.  But, it's certainly possible.  

[TheDeanAbides]

6 hours ago, stevehj said:

There were multiple shafts offered in Hogan irons.  There was a number on the shaft label and this is how they were defined:

3 = regular

4 = stiff

5 = x-stiff

 

Can you see the number on any of the shaft labels in your Apex II's?

Hi Steve,

As I said in the original post, the IIs have Apex 2s in them. 

[TheDeanAbides]

5 hours ago, Joe S said:

 

I've heard people say that later shafts were softer than the earlier ones.  A newer 3 compared to older 3, for example.  Originally they were manufactured by True Temper and at some point manufacturing was changed to Precision and that's when they allegedly changed.  I've never noticed a difference myself.   There is no reason that Precision couldn't manufacture to the same specifications and I don't know why Hogan would change the design.  But, it is true that the consensus on these forums seems to be that the newer Apex's are softer than the older ones. 

 

I would be really surprised if the newer 3 was softer than the older 2.  But, it's certainly possible.  

I had another play with them and they may not be softer, but they're certainly not stiffer. Probably about the same? I haven't had a chance to swing them yet. 

[@_the_crook]

there could very well be a slight difference between the TT and the RP sets - on matching number flexes.

 

I have sets of Apex Edge Pro  and BH5's with Apex 3's. similar era. 02 and 05.

they both carry the same Apex shaft labels - but the BH set has those familiar TT markings near the first step.

on the Edge five irons, the first step begins about an inch higher and farther up the step pattern changes even more.

they are similar - not identical.

[Joe S]

11 hours ago, @_the_crook said:

there could very well be a slight difference between the TT and the RP sets - on matching number flexes.

 

I have sets of Apex Edge Pro  and BH5's with Apex 3's. similar era. 02 and 05.

they both carry the same Apex shaft labels - but the BH set has those familiar TT markings near the first step.

on the Edge five irons, the first step begins about an inch higher and farther up the step pattern changes even more.

they are similar - not identical.

 

I have a set of BH5's.  They have Apex Edge Shafts, which is a different shaft than the Apex.  It's what they used in the more game improvement oriented irons from the Spalding and Callaway years.  Apex Edge, Edge CFT and BH5 generally had the Apex Edge shaft.  The Apex Edge Pro, Apex Plus, Apex FTX and most of the blades had the standard Apex shaft.  Totally different step patterns.  The label says Apex on it, then says Edge in smaller script underneath.  Apex shafts from the late 60's until they stopped making them in the early 2000's had the same step patterns.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by Joe S
misspelling.

[@_the_crook]

10 hours ago, Joe S said:

 

I have a set of BH5's.  They have Apex Edge Shafts, which is a different shaft than the Apex.  It's what they used in the more game improvement oriented irons from the Spalding and Callaway years.  Apex Edge, Edge CFT and BH5 generally had the Apex Edge shaft.  The Apex Edge Pro, Apex Plus, Apex FTX and most of the blades had the standard Apex shaft.  Totally different step patters.  The label says Apex on it, then says Edge in smaller script underneath.  Apex shafts from the late 60's until they stopped making them in the early 2000's had the same step patterns.  

 

upon closer inspection -

you are correct Sir.

 

thank you for the explanation.

[@_the_crook]

I kept that set of Apex Edge Pros around, hoping to use the shafts for something.

the plating on some of the heads is pretty worn out.

glad it doesn't cost anything to stack gear in a corner.

you just need a lot of corners............

😄

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by @_the_crook
sp

[Swingingk]

2 hours ago, @_the_crook said:

I kept that set of Apex Edge Pros around, hoping to use the shafts for something.

the plating on some of the heads is pretty worn out.

glad it doesn't cost anything to stack gear in a corner.

you just need a lot of corners............

😄

 

I ran out of corners long ago but... walls work good too!  😂

 

 

[@_the_crook]

1 hour ago, Swingingk said:

I ran out of corners long ago but... walls work good too!  😂

 

 

 

nice layout Sir.

care to share the backstory on the autographed Wilson ?

 

[Swingingk]

49 minutes ago, @_the_crook said:

 

nice layout Sir.

care to share the backstory on the autographed Wilson ?

 

Ha!  Thanks.  You gotta find room where you can.  😂

 

I saw the Wilson bag on a local buy-n-sell website and had to have it.  If I remember correctly the seller said he got it signed at some kind of Champions Tour event here in Canada.  It's got a lot of interesting signatures.  I've only deciphered a few so far.  Someday when I'm bored I'll have to look closer at it.  Here's a few of the names:

 

Gene Sauers

Doug Tewell

Ken Green

Tom Pernice Jr.

D. A. Weibring

Ted Tryba

Ray Barr Jr.

Ray Stewart

Stan Utley

Bobby Watkins

Pat McGowen
Jim Benepe
Rick Todd
Ed Dougherty
Jerry Haas
Doug Tewell
 

Sorry for getting so far off topic.  Back to Apex shafts...  😃

[@_the_crook]

Brad Faxon, Loren Roberts, Bobby Clampett, Scott Hoch...

 

Great stuff.

 

[Swingingk]

18 minutes ago, @_the_crook said:

Brad Faxon, Loren Roberts, Bobby Clampett, Scott Hoch...

 

Great stuff.

 

Yeah it's pretty nifty.  I think I paid like $75 for it which seems like a good deal considering it's a new bag too.  One of these days I'll have to take it to the course.  I keep my '59 Dyna-Powered's in it so it'll be a total nostalgia trip.

[BIG STU]

On 3/3/2021 at 7:14 PM, stevehj said:

There were multiple shafts offered in Hogan irons.  There was a number on the shaft label and this is how they were defined:

3 = regular

4 = stiff

5 = x-stiff

 

Can you see the number on any of the shaft labels in your Apex II's?

2- Senior

1 - Ladies

I have the #2s in my infamous Mac Hogans and my back up set of Muirfields I have a set of #3s soft stepped. I can not tell much difference. I also built a what I call a Super Soft wedge which is a Cleveland 588 with a #1 8 iron shaft in it. Soft and a super spinner. Right now due to my back injury other than the wedges I am not messing with steel shafts. Most of my personal stuff I mess with strictly by feel. 

[@_the_crook]

now that Joe S pointed out the difference on Apex Edge shafts - I'm going to take my other set to the range to see if the impact issues I've encountered are swing or shaft related.

 

this forum is terrific.

 

 

 

 

[Foozle]

Question for the techy guys who understand shaft mechanics...

I have played Redlines with Apex 4 shafts for a few years. Love them! Last season I found i wasn't hitting them so well and concluded a few injuries and advancing years meant I have lost some speed and so not getting the best out of the 4's. I played out the season with a set of FG17's with regular shafts.

Over the winter I picked up another set of Redlines but with Apex 3 shafts. I had them out today and was pleased to once again  experience the once familiar sweet sensation of hitting Redlines. This seemed to support my shaft theory and justify the switch. HOWEVER,, they were launching much higher than they used to with Apex 4 shafts. I play Scottish links golf so high launch is not helpful! There was a stiff breeze out there today and although I was generally hitting them quite solid I got pretty badly beaten up!

It may just be my swing which doesn't repeat very well but I would have expected the launch to be similar between Apex shafts of different flex - am i wrong in that? 

 

[@_the_crook]

Do your FG's have Dynamic R's or something different?

 

[raggal62]

2 hours ago, Foozle said:

Question for the techy guys who understand shaft mechanics...

I have played Redlines with Apex 4 shafts for a few years. Love them! Last season I found i wasn't hitting them so well and concluded a few injuries and advancing years meant I have lost some speed and so not getting the best out of the 4's. I played out the season with a set of FG17's with regular shafts.

Over the winter I picked up another set of Redlines but with Apex 3 shafts. I had them out today and was pleased to once again  experience the once familiar sweet sensation of hitting Redlines. This seemed to support my shaft theory and justify the switch. HOWEVER,, they were launching much higher than they used to with Apex 4 shafts. I play Scottish links golf so high launch is not helpful! There was a stiff breeze out there today and although I was generally hitting them quite solid I got pretty badly beaten up!

It may just be my swing which doesn't repeat very well but I would have expected the launch to be similar between Apex shafts of different flex - am i wrong in that? 

 

Have you checked the loft angles? That would seem more likely the culprit. But having said that, some people experience a somewhat higher launch by dropping a flex. 

[Foozle]

8 hours ago, raggal62 said:

Have you checked the loft angles? That would seem more likely the culprit. But having said that, some people experience a somewhat higher launch by dropping a flex. 

Didn't think about lofts and just assumed both sets were standard. As I recall, Redline lofts are on the weak side of traditional with a 37* 7 iron. Can't imagine anyone weakening from there but it is possible my set with Apex 4's may have been strengthened but presumably by no more than 1 club. I have no means of measuring the lofts but am still inclined to think it is the shafts that make the difference. They all launch noticeably higher, quite a different profile to the set with Apex 4.

Interested to know if anyone else has experience of this and if so what the shaft mechanics are that create such a difference - not that I will understand the science!

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

12 hours ago, Foozle said:

Question for the techy guys who understand shaft mechanics...

I have played Redlines with Apex 4 shafts for a few years. Love them! Last season I found i wasn't hitting them so well and concluded a few injuries and advancing years meant I have lost some speed and so not getting the best out of the 4's. I played out the season with a set of FG17's with regular shafts.

Over the winter I picked up another set of Redlines but with Apex 3 shafts. I had them out today and was pleased to once again  experience the once familiar sweet sensation of hitting Redlines. This seemed to support my shaft theory and justify the switch. HOWEVER,, they were launching much higher than they used to with Apex 4 shafts. I play Scottish links golf so high launch is not helpful! There was a stiff breeze out there today and although I was generally hitting them quite solid I got pretty badly beaten up!

It may just be my swing which doesn't repeat very well but I would have expected the launch to be similar between Apex shafts of different flex - am i wrong in that? 

 

 

As others have said, loft is the first thing to check, but I found the same thing as you with Apex 3.

 

A few years ago, I bought some Hogan 35-year (40th??) anniversary irons, which I think were a Japanese model and very likely just restamped Medallions.

 

Anyway, they had Apex 3 shafts, and I was hitting balloon balls with everything but the 2i, and that was at a range with "low-flight" balls. 

 

I've some 1972 Apexes with Apex 4 shafts, and they don't balloon as much, though I find them higher launching than True Temper Dynamic shafts.

 

I sold them on pretty quickly.

[Foozle]

12 hours ago, @_the_crook said:

Do your FG's have Dynamic R's or something different?

 

The FG17's have TT Dynamic R shafts. I got on okay with those and could keep them to a sensible height. 

[Foozle]

1 hour ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

As others have said, loft is the first thing to check, but I found the same thing as you with Apex 3.

 

A few years ago, I bought some Hogan 35-year (40th??) anniversary irons, which I think were a Japanese model and very likely just restamped Medallions.

 

Anyway, they had Apex 3 shafts, and I was hitting balloon balls with everything but the 2i, and that was at a range with "low-flight" balls. 

 

I've some 1972 Apexes with Apex 4 shafts, and they don't balloon as much, though I find them higher launching than True Temper Dynamic shafts.

 

I sold them on pretty quickly.

Interesting. I wouldn't say I was hitting balloon balls, but noticeably higher than with the Apex 4. I will try and compare lofts but unless I fundamentally mis understand the physics, I was still hitting the Apex 3 5 iron higher than the Apex 4 6 iron so even if the Apex 4's have been cranked by 3 or 4 degrees, loft for loft the Apex 3's were going (much) higher. 

I also have a set of '72's with Apex 4 and hit those very low, partly i thought by the muscle pad being towards the top of the blade?

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

34 minutes ago, Foozle said:

Interesting. I wouldn't say I was hitting balloon balls, but noticeably higher than with the Apex 4. I will try and compare lofts but unless I fundamentally mis understand the physics, I was still hitting the Apex 3 5 iron higher than the Apex 4 6 iron so even if the Apex 4's have been cranked by 3 or 4 degrees, loft for loft the Apex 3's were going (much) higher. 

I also have a set of '72's with Apex 4 and hit those very low, partly i thought by the muscle pad being towards the top of the blade?

 

Good point about the muscle pad on the '72 Apexes. That should certainly keep ball flight down.

Unfortunately, they're the only two Hogan irons I've ever hit, so I've no more basis for comparison.

[TheDeanAbides]

3 hours ago, Foozle said:

Didn't think about lofts and just assumed both sets were standard. As I recall, Redline lofts are on the weak side of traditional with a 37* 7 iron. Can't imagine anyone weakening from there but it is possible my set with Apex 4's may have been strengthened but presumably by no more than 1 club. I have no means of measuring the lofts but am still inclined to think it is the shafts that make the difference. They all launch noticeably higher, quite a different profile to the set with Apex 4.

Interested to know if anyone else has experience of this and if so what the shaft mechanics are that create such a difference - not that I will understand the science!

That's interestiNg. I have a set of '99s with 4s and another 6 iron that has a 3 in. I haven't noticed much difference, but they all balloon into anything other than a breeze. 

[raggal62]

4 hours ago, Foozle said:

Didn't think about lofts and just assumed both sets were standard. As I recall, Redline lofts are on the weak side of traditional with a 37* 7 iron. Can't imagine anyone weakening from there but it is possible my set with Apex 4's may have been strengthened but presumably by no more than 1 club. I have no means of measuring the lofts but am still inclined to think it is the shafts that make the difference. They all launch noticeably higher, quite a different profile to the set with Apex 4.

Interested to know if anyone else has experience of this and if so what the shaft mechanics are that create such

 

1). Loading (flexing) occurs during the downswing transition.

2). Unloading (unflexing) occurs at impact with the golf ball.

 

A shaft that is too stiff will result in little to no loading. A shaft that is too flexible will result in unloading before impact.

 

A golfer with a strong downswing transition will generally benefit from a stiffer profile shaft. The opposite is true for golfers with a smooth downswing transition.

 

Generally the driver shaft is the most critical to get correct but irons definitely count too!

 

Foozie: IMO the results you're getting with your redlines (other than loft) would almost describe a change from very stiff to very flexible. For me if I play an iron shaft that is WAY too flexible the result would be a higher trajectory. This would be due to the shaft unloading early and actually adding dynamic loft at impact (head leading shaft). But changing from a #4 to a #3 and experiencing that big a difference is a head scratcher. 

 

[NRJyzr]

3 hours ago, Foozle said:

The FG17's have TT Dynamic R shafts. I got on okay with those and could keep them to a sensible height. 

 

My take is that the Apex 3 is likely just too soft for you.  For what little that's worth, LOL.

 

I've never liked the Apex shaft, because I've always hit with a high trajectory, until the last couple years.  My take on it is that it was softer than same flex DG, due to the softer tip.  Could be why Apex 3 isn't working for you, but Dynamic R *is*.

 

In Ye Olde Days, I had a chance to hit an MP30 6 iron with DGR.  I was using DGS at the time.  I hit this 6 iron as high as I hit my SW, it was cartoonist.  It was a stark demonstration of too soft, even with what was otherwise a good shaft profile fit for me.

 

Apologies for the stream of consciousness post.  🙂

 

[Foozle]

4 hours ago, raggal62 said:

 

1). Loading (flexing) occurs during the downswing transition.

2). Unloading (unflexing) occurs at impact with the golf ball.

 

A shaft that is too stiff will result in little to no loading. A shaft that is too flexible will result in unloading before impact.

 

A golfer with a strong downswing transition will generally benefit from a stiffer profile shaft. The opposite is true for golfers with a smooth downswing transition.

 

Generally the driver shaft is the most critical to get correct but irons definitely count too!

 

Foozie: IMO the results you're getting with your redlines (other than loft) would almost describe a change from very stiff to very flexible. For me if I play an iron shaft that is WAY too flexible the result would be a higher trajectory. This would be due to the shaft unloading early and actually adding dynamic loft at impact (head leading shaft). But changing from a #4 to a #3 and experiencing that big a difference is a head scratcher. 

 

Appreciate the insight. My conclusion last year was that I wasn't generating the power / speed to load the Apex 4's. Strikes lacked the zing of a well timed unload and felt dead off the face.

Strikes with the #3's yesterday felt pure again (well mostly!😁) so from that point of view the shafts worked but as you say, the increase in trajectory is a bit of a headscratcher.

Interestingly, I still play Apex 4 in the woods and feel I still load and release them okay- perhaps the heavier head helps in that case?

[@_the_crook]

I just re-gripped an Edge GS 6i with a 4 shaft to take out for my next round, and see if that has any positive effect.

always worth a try.

 

[Foozle]

3 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

My take is that the Apex 3 is likely just too soft for you.  For what little that's worth, LOL.

 

I've never liked the Apex shaft, because I've always hit with a high trajectory, until the last couple years.  My take on it is that it was softer than same flex DG, due to the softer tip.  Could be why Apex 3 isn't working for you, but Dynamic R *is*.

 

In Ye Olde Days, I had a chance to hit an MP30 6 iron with DGR.  I was using DGS at the time.  I hit this 6 iron as high as I hit my SW, it was cartoonist.  It was a stark demonstration of too soft, even with what was otherwise a good shaft profile fit for me.

 

Apologies for the stream of consciousness post.  🙂

 

No apologies necessary!

I think you may be correct and the gap between #3 and #4 is just a bit much and I have gone from marginally too stiff to marginally too soft. The DG R's might just be the right stepping stone in my inevitable progression towards senior flex! 🙂