Lie angle adjustment to help swing

[Klat5259]

This might be kind of a stretch... but I’ve been thinking about this for awhile now. The club I play at has a few holes where my feet are below the ball. Not a hole lot but an inch or so. I always pure the shots... not a draw but perfectly straight. My natural shot shape is a slight fade. Starts on line or a tad left and fades right. My question is... if I were to have my irons bent flat would this straighten my flight out? I play mizuno mp18 MB’s, they are off the shelf. So maybe they’re too upright for me? When I play those lies my club sits better, It feels better... I know when the ball is above your feet, you are more up right and it natural flattens out your swing. But maybe my current set up is making me swing to upright when I have a normal lie. I can’t hit a shot where the ball is below my feet to save my life. I’m a 4 handicap so I’m not a hack. Just trying to find tune my game and maybe I’ve been playing the wrong specs all along

[Klat5259]

If the lie angle is too upright for my swing then in order to square the club on the downswing, I would have to compensate by coming in steeper on the downswing? 

[Itsjustagame]

If your clubs are too upright you are more likely to get a draw than a fade.

[Klat5259]

24 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Klat5259

[Stuart_G]

9 minutes ago, Klat5259 said:

That’s not what I’m asking. Too upright will cause a shot to hit the heel. A heel shot will cause left to right spin. It’ll start left but spin right because of gear effect

 

The left to right spin from a heel hit comes from gear effect - but gear effect is generally negligible for irons.   So that particular relationship between impact position and spin changes is only valid for hybrids/woods/drivers.    If you're getting left-to-right spin with a heel hit on the iron then it's coming from the face-to-path relationship or lie angle too flat.  Although the lie angle contribution is really small.

 

[phizzy30]

31 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

If your clubs are too upright you are more likely to get a draw than a fade.

I find this to be true.  Being only 5'7, I normally have my irons bent 1.5 to 2 degrees flat.  I naturally draw the ball and if my irons are too upright, my ball starts left and keeps curving that way.  Bending my irons flat has helped with dispersion a bit.  I tend to agree with Stuart G when he says that bending irons will not affect dispersion significantly, but every little bit helps. 

[Klat5259]

3 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The left to right spin from a heel hit comes from gear effect - but gear effect is generally negligible for irons.   So that particular relationship between impact position and spin changes is only valid for hybrids/woods/drivers.    If you're getting left-to-right spin with a heel hit on the iron then it's coming from the face-to-path relationship or lie angle too flat.  Although the lie angle contribution is really small.

 

I understand that an upright angle will cause a closed clubface and a heel hit. Resulting in a left miss. But a good player will compensate to not miss left. Stalling the body and then manipulating the hands to open the face at impact. 

[Klat5259]

14 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The left to right spin from a heel hit comes from gear effect - but gear effect is generally negligible for irons.   So that particular relationship between impact position and spin changes is only valid for hybrids/woods/drivers.    If you're getting left-to-right spin with a heel hit on the iron then it's coming from the face-to-path relationship or lie angle too flat.  Although the lie angle contribution is really small.

 

My point of the post is that I hit shots that are above my feet perfectly straight and basically how can I manipulate my clubs specs to help imitate that feel to a level shot. If that makes sense?

[rkodavey]

I know you're getting all kinds of different advice to your post, but I will just say that based on my experience, adjusting the lie angle will have varying results among golfers. I played irons that were two degrees upright ever since I started seriously playing--went to a static fitting 15 years ago and the guy measured my wrist to floor and told me that's what I needed. I recently purchased a new (to me) set of irons that was one degree flat. I normally hit it left, so I figured maybe the flat lie angle would straighten things out a bit. The reality was, I noticed no difference in the direction I hit these irons, but I could not hit them to save my life. I would make what I felt was a solid swing but would severely mishit the ball and something felt off about the club's interaction with the turf. I started looking at my clubface after my shots and saw that the toe was digging into the ground and my contact was fat and out towards the toe. Took my irons to Golf Galaxy and had them adjusted from 1 flat to 2 upright and have played two rounds with them and the difference is incredible. I'm getting a high, piercing ball flight with the more upright lie angle. The club glides through the turf and my contact is pure. I'm finally able to enjoy my P790s! And, the ball is not going any further left for me than it was with the flatter angles. So I would say that the only way to tell for sure what lie angle adjustments do for you is to get out on the course and tinker with different options if that is at all possible. Maybe get a couple of your clubs adjusted and hit shots with them on the course and see what you notice. If you like the results, get the rest of your set adjusted and you're set.

[KMeloney]

The above-the-feet shot isn't closing the face (unless you are) -- it's taking the loft of the club and tilting it so that it points more left. 

 

This sounds like it has nothing to do with gear effect and everything to do with preferring the ball flight from a very upright face angle (flatter swing = more upright face). In that case, you should do the exact opposite of what you're proposing and bend your irons upright.

 

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

You touched on something in your post that might be the key as far as the effects on your setup and swing. We need way more information but it's possible you are too bent over.

 

Also lie doesn't necessarily move strike point, there are tendencies but they don't always work out. A more upright lie just points the face more left, you want it to match up with your swing, not adjust yourself to the club. From reading your post it sounds like they are too flat if anything, I would do a sharpie test. 

 

[Klat5259]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

You touched on something in your post that might be the key as far as the effects on your setup and swing. We need way more information but it's possible you are too bent over.

 

Also lie doesn't necessarily move strike point, there are tendencies but they don't always work out. A more upright lie just points the face more left, you want it to match up with your swing, not adjust yourself to the club. From reading your post it sounds like they are too flat if anything, I would do a sharpie test. 

 

That’s my exact point of this post. 

My point of the post is that I hit shots that are above my feet perfectly straight and basically how can I manipulate my clubs specs to help imitate that feel to a level shot. If that makessense?

[Klat5259]

5 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

The above-the-feet shot isn't closing the face (unless you are) -- it's taking the loft of the club and tilting it so that it points more left. 

 

This sounds like it has nothing to do with gear effect and everything to do with preferring the ball flight from a very upright face angle (flatter swing = more upright face). In that case, you should do the exact opposite of what you're proposing and bend your irons upright.

 

 

I never said that the above the feet shot is closing the face 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 minutes ago, Klat5259 said:

That’s my exact point of this post. 

My point of the post is that I hit shots that are above my feet perfectly straight and basically how can I manipulate my clubs specs to help imitate that feel to a level shot. If that makessense?

 

My inclination would be to bend them more upright but I would do the sharpie test to check dynamic lie off a level shot.

[Klat5259]

Just now, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

My inclination would be to bend them more upright but I would do the sharpie test to check dynamic lie off a level shot.

Ok, I will give it a try

[GLF4EVR]

From my own experience, @Stuart_G is correct.  My 2 iron is just a shade on the upright side of a neutral lie.  By the time I get to my PW, it is 2.5* upright.  I used a vertical line on a ball to determine where my lie angle should be at.

 

I used to have the right miss due to a fade quite frequently.  Once I started to pay attention, I could tell my divots were deepest in the toe end of the club.  So I did the static & dynamic lie with each iron.  Now if I have the fade, it is because I didn't get my hips out the way in time.  So it produced a baby fade.

 

When I am faced with the same type of uphill lie similar to what you have described, I play the ball just like it is a flat lie & will have a straight ball flight.  Same with a downhill lie.

 

In saying all of that, you are a better ball striker than me.  Lowest I got down to was a 5 four years ago.  Work since then has really raised my handicap.  You might want to take out a sharpie to see how your lie actually is.  Then just adjust that club to what your results show I see what happens.

[KMeloney]

29 minutes ago, Klat5259 said:

I understand that an upright angle will cause a closed clubface and a heel hit.

 

7 minutes ago, Klat5259 said:

I never said that the above the feet shot is closing the face 

 

Except for where you did.

[gators78]

1 hour ago, Itsjustagame said:

If your clubs are too upright you are more likely to get a draw than a fade.

 

You're more likely to start the ball left with an upright lie angle, which would be ideal for a fade, not a draw.

[Stuart_G]

4 minutes ago, Klat5259 said:

That’s my exact point of this post. 

My point of the post is that I hit shots that are above my feet perfectly straight and basically how can I manipulate my clubs specs to help imitate that feel to a level shot. If that makessense?

 

There is more going on with a shot that's above your feet than just the change in lie angle but the question of whether you should adjust the lie angle is really dependent on what the core problem really is.   If the clubs are too flat and that's contributing to your right miss, then certainly adjusting the lie angle is a good fix.   If you are trying to use lie angle to compensate for another problem - then it's a bit more complex.   it's certainly not ideal but that doesn't mean it might not help.   I personally just don't think it tends to be a very effective fix.    You didn't mention how far offline your misses are or how much correction you're hoping for but typically 1* of lie angle adjustment is only going to give a change in how far offline the shot is by ~2-3 yards.   Too much adjustment in the lie angle away from what your dynamic lie really is can start to introduce other issues as well.   But bottom line is that it's the results that really matter and you can always bend them back if it doesn't work out so it's not a very risky test

 

But first thing would be to judge whether the lie angle is off or not.  That's pretty easy, all you need is a dry erase marker.  Use the method described here:

 

 

 

[Klat5259]

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There is more going on with a shot that's above your feet than just the change in lie angle but the question of whether you should adjust the lie angle is really dependent on what the core problem really is.   If the clubs are too flat and that's contributing to your right miss, then certainly adjusting the lie angle is a good fix.   If you are trying to use lie angle to compensate for another problem - then it's a bit more complex.   it's certainly not ideal but that doesn't mean it might not help.   I personally just don't think it tends to be a very effective fix.    You didn't mention how far offline your misses are or how much correction you're hoping for but typically 1* of lie angle adjustment is only going to give a change in how far offline the shot is by ~2-3 yards.   Too much adjustment in the lie angle away from what your dynamic lie really is can start to introduce other issues as well.   But bottom line is that it's the results that really matter and you can always bend them back if it doesn't work out so it's not a very risky test

 

But first thing would be to judge whether the lie angle is off or not.  That's pretty easy, all you need is a dry erase marker.  Use the method described here:

 

 

 

I will give it a try thank you. My miss is only a few yards. Nothing crazy. It’s more psychological than anything. I feel more confident when playing a shot above my feet. I feel more balanced, centered, etc. So if I can get that feeling by manipulating my club specs, and by doing so increase my confidence over the ball then that’s a win for me. 

[Stuart_G]

7 minutes ago, Klat5259 said:

I will give it a try thank you. My miss is only a few yards. Nothing crazy. It’s more psychological than anything. I feel more confident when playing a shot above my feet. I feel more balanced, centered, etc. So if I can get that feeling by manipulating my club specs, and by doing so increase my confidence over the ball then that’s a win for me. 

 

Is the problem in all irons throughout the set?   Or is it more prominent in the shorter or longer side?

Edited March 4, 2021 by Stuart_G

[MonteScheinblum]

Too many variables to make a definitive analysis one way or the other.  Making clubs flatter could make it better or worse.

 

The most likely scenario is your swing naturally produces a left path and the ball above your feet makes you adjust the path more right to compensate for the hill.  It’s a common drill to have chronic over the top swingers to hit the ball well above their feet.

[Klat5259]

[Klat5259]

Post my swing above. The toe of my club sits up at address. This is one reason why I thought that maybe flattening my lie angle would improve my impact position.

[Klat5259]

13 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Is the problem in all irons throughout the set?   Or is it more prominent in the shorter or longer side?

I do feel more confident with my 4 iron then I do my other irons. It’s a titleist tmb18. My 9-5 iron are mizuno mp18. They have different lie specs. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Toe is suppose to be slightly up at address.  Your trail elbow is reconnecting to your torso late.  That kicks the club out early and will cause a slight pull heel fade.  

[Klat5259]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Toe is suppose to be slightly up at address.  Your trail elbow is reconnecting to your torso late.  That kicks the club out early and will cause a slight pull heel fade.  

Thank you Monte, I will work on that as well

[Klat5259]

13 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Toe is suppose to be slightly up at address.  Your trail elbow is reconnecting to your torso late.  That kicks the club out early and will cause a slight pull heel fade.  

Would you just prescribe a “just do it” drill for this? Just get my right elbow to my trial hip sooner 

[Klat5259]

43 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Toe is suppose to be slightly up at address.  Your trail elbow is reconnecting to your torso late.  That kicks the club out early and will cause a slight pull heel fade.  

And just the flirt with the idea... do you think that having a flatter lie angle would shallow the shaft in the downswing? To get the club to proper position at impact the club would have to come in on a more shallow plane right?

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, Klat5259 said:

My point of the post is that I hit shots that are above my feet perfectly straight and basically how can I manipulate my clubs specs to help imitate that feel to a level shot. If that makes sense?

Nevermind.  I thought you were saying you hit better with the ball below your feet

Edited March 4, 2021 by Cwebb