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Hitting toe of every club. Swing fault or lie issue perhaps?


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I seem to hit the toe of every club from wedge to driver. Every clubs is standard loft/lie/length. Not losing much distance but the wear on my clubs shows subtle off-center hits. What's the easiest fix? I play 1991 blades that are cast so bending might be a small issue. I'm also playing R300 shafts which are a bit weak for my 90mph 7i. I've heard flattening the lie a few degrees helps, but I'm pretty reluctant to get a swing analysis done as I'm cheap hence the $75 CAD iron set and vsteel woods (best ever btw). Any help is appreciated!

Supertri 9.5 degree with proforce V2 stiff
V Steel 3W stock stiff
R9 5W with White Tie stiff
Adams 3/4 hybrid with Red Tie stiff
Cleveland Tour Action 4-pw R400
Cleveland RTX4 54/60 S300
Scotty Circa 62

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Lol must be that legal lettuce.

I would say that generally speaking when there are face impact inconsistencies, it usually has to do with the lack of maintaining posture/tilt through impact. Take some videos and see how your a** mov

Since i dont know your swing, lets say its the equipment and here it how it goes. - If play length is the issue, this will be seen from #8 and shorter, NOT the longer clubs, so if your #5 and #6 al

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Well, the "hot spot" on most drivers and fairways is slightly towards the toe.  So you might be fine there.

 

As for the old blades, those will usually have a sweet-spot that is somewhat towards the heel, so that is a problem.  Might look into a newer iron design that is verified to be forgiving towards the toe

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Likely Not the clubs.  Likely it’s just how your brain is seeing where the ball is.  Same reason that people who hit the hosel can’t cure it by standing farther away.  Your brain sees the ball and guides the club to the spot.  But the perception is a little off.

M4 Driver D-type
sometimes 5W, sometimes 3 hybrid

4,5,6 hybrids (22,25,28 degrees)  Adams
4, 6-GW basic GI irons, weak lofts and +1/2" for more speed and launch
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Just now, Snowman9000 said:

Likely Not the clubs.  Likely it’s just how your brain is seeing where the ball is.  Same reason that people who hit the hosel can’t cure it by standing farther away.  Your brain sees the ball and guides the club to the spot.  But the perception is a little off.

Lol must be that legal lettuce.

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Supertri 9.5 degree with proforce V2 stiff
V Steel 3W stock stiff
R9 5W with White Tie stiff
Adams 3/4 hybrid with Red Tie stiff
Cleveland Tour Action 4-pw R400
Cleveland RTX4 54/60 S300
Scotty Circa 62

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I would say that generally speaking when there are face impact inconsistencies, it usually has to do with the lack of maintaining posture/tilt through impact. Take some videos and see how your a** moves, does it slide back away from the ball, slide forward toward the ball (more likely), or does it rotate around the same axis from which you set up? The latter being the goal, e.g. DJ slo mo. There are plenty of drills that can help this. Just my opinion, best of luck figuring it out!

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I do the same thing.  It's a swing flaw.  Standing a little closer to the ball may help, keyword, may.

 

 

 

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I have the same problem as you when my swing is off.  I tend to mis toe side.  I started to address the ball towards the heel 10 years ago like Luke Donald and Vijay do or at least used to do.  Haven't looked back since although my mis hits are still ever so slightly off center towards the toe.  I stand really close to the ball like Rahmbo does.  People always ask me how I never shank it, lol. 

Edited by phizzy30
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54* Miura HB w/KBS 610 S+, 58* Miura w/KBS Tour Black

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3 hours ago, bellsy13 said:

I seem to hit the toe of every club from wedge to driver. Every clubs is standard loft/lie/length. Not losing much distance but the wear on my clubs shows subtle off-center hits. What's the easiest fix? I play 1991 blades that are cast so bending might be a small issue. I'm also playing R300 shafts which are a bit weak for my 90mph 7i. I've heard flattening the lie a few degrees helps, but I'm pretty reluctant to get a swing analysis done as I'm cheap hence the $75 CAD iron set and vsteel woods (best ever btw). Any help is appreciated!

You've probably tried this but when I start hitting the toe I'll practice with three golf balls, each about half a clubhead length apart, and (attempt to) strike the middle one. 

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2 hours ago, ClubBuildRookie said:

You guys just summarized all my swing faults.  Clubs too short might be a problem too.  


Since i dont know your swing, lets say its the equipment and here it how it goes.

- If play length is the issue, this will be seen from #8 and shorter, NOT the longer clubs, so if your #5 and #6 also have toe side impact, forget play length, its NOT the reason.  

- Head weight on the other hand can be. DG R300 tapers is 127 grams uncut (sensicore 124 grams), so for now, i dont think its lack of shaft weight either, but lack of head weight.

Both shaft and head weight, "pulls the club down and out", so i would start by adding a stripe of lead tape at the time and see how that moves impact towards the center.

Lie angles could be a issue, and a ball marker test with a vertical line in the ball will tell if lie angles is neutral or not at impact, and combined with the label below (you only need eyeballing), you can judge how much of they are and the need for change, and in what direction.

My conclusion is, get a roll of lead tape and a pen for the ball marker test, and tell us what you found.

image.png.ef6f68a665d69b54d7fa9f98fbafa5ea.png
 

Edited by Howard_Jones
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@Howard_Jones In my case, my swing is a touch out to in and my downswing is typically above plane a little.  I have a short compact swing with a fast tempo.  My biggest miss is typically a straight pull left or straight thin lower flyers off bottom of face.  I could log and share some SkyPro swing data so you can better understand my swing check points DNA if you have the App installed.  

Standing up and lifting out of the swing are common demons I battle.  When I intentionally pay attention to managing my body elevation during the swing and keep my chest down, over the ball and thru the swing I hit center of face contact and the results direction wise are usually pretty good.  

 

I also see the problem on all clubs but I’m a one length player.  I do tend to see the problem more as I go towards my lower lofted irons and that is probably related to the progressive lie angles within my King Forged Tec One set.  I don’t see that problem on my F7 one set and those lie angles are all the same at 62.5ish.
 

After reading one of your prior posts a different thread a couple of weeks ago,  I did the dry ease ball marker test on my KFTO 7i only and it showed I needed to go a touch flatter on the 7i.  I don’t know the exact loft on that  7i yet but I’m guessing it’s between 63 and 64.  When I was at a local shop last night trying out the older Mizuno Shaft Optimizer, afterwards I had the lie angle checked on my KFTO 5i and it measured 66*.  I also had an F7 5i one test club checked and it measured 62*.  Hence, lie angles on my KFTO set do indeed need adjusted.  
 

I have been doing some shaft and SW testing using the 62* F7 one 5i head.  Data analysis has shown as I add lead tape it reduces my left/right dispersion StDev.  I think I have found 14g additional lead tape is where peak performance is but I need to hit a few more shots and rerun the data analysis to get my “N” aka sample size to good statistical size.  So far the data has shown ball speed, distance and dispersion all seem to peak the 14g added tape configuration.  I haven’t specifically put anything on the face to look at strike patterns but I have logged and recorded my impressions of strike quality for each shot.  
 

At the 14g config that translates to SW of D3.  Note, the 6g badge on the back of test head is missing.  Club is 36”, Winn DriTac Lite, Recoil ZT9 F2 shaft, total club weight is 357g.  Ball data off SkyTrak, ball speed averages 110 to 112, launch angle 19.1, 4000 backspin, -502 side spin(draw shape) carry 167ish, total 180ish, peak height 25 yards, club speed 79, PTI 1.41.  
 

Pic below shows my stance alignment for all my test shots.  Ball would be placed on red dot for all shot data.  Red dot is on target line.  Edge of hitting mat and face of LM are parallel to target line.  Ignore the XXg data in the chart as that was old data from 12/26 I pulled in and I don’t know details for that hitting session.  14g, 8g, 10g lead tape shots were all hit with a standardize setup to minimize all other variables.  I have more shot data to add including an 18g config but haven’t had a chance to rerun numbers in MiniTab yet to create new graph. 

 

Btw...your insights and posts are usually spot on and very valuable to tinkering weekend warriors like me. Thanks!  Now with all this info, can you help me connect the dots and tell me what lightweight affordable (less than $50 each) 50g and 60g shafts might be good ideas to test to find maximize distance and tightest StDev?  

26B494B6-2A26-431E-B555-B9E0AD16FDA4.jpeg.dd27b01ca68dcd6c0cafb49365589ec3.jpeg
23285346-5270-49AB-8531-467D6C423C22.jpeg.3b3e8a477a7104a95e4e26c0948b3f88.jpeg
FA1EFAB9-C1E6-485E-B3D8-9135453FD274.jpeg.1f151b4c36c03d2d5f29e033bb931f59.jpeg
6448CD85-12C1-402C-9872-D689AF19B490.jpeg.c63f3ed6293ecc3bd4754d1a853f6c40.jpeg
2F3FAB00-FAA8-42FE-B81D-0803856B9DD5.jpeg.df2512793d24cb4abfe4e5f87043b48e.jpeg
E08F7A5C-73A5-4C48-9CF9-FD1B4A2AA495.jpeg.3250f7af7a698fa968958dc76ab9a6b6.jpeg

 

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I'm a perennial toe hitter myself. But when I'm aware of what I've done wrong and counter it, I hit it flush. For me, it's a set up issue.  Any combination of these things.  I am just a little too far from the ball. I set up with my arms not hanging vertical but instead extending away from my body toward the ball a bit.  Those are the main ones and they're easy to "overlook". Another quick fix is my visual focus point when I'm not sure what I'm doing, especially if combined with setting up with the ball on the heel side of the face.  Focus on the outside/toe "side" of the ball instead of the middle; that gets my swing a little further away from my body, resulting in center instead of toe contact.

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1 hour ago, ClubBuildRookie said:

@Howard_Jones In my case, my swing is a touch out to in and my downswing is typically above plane a little.  I have a short compact swing with a fast tempo.  My biggest miss is typically a straight pull left or straight thin lower flyers off bottom of face.  I could log and share some SkyPro swing data so you can better understand my swing check points DNA if you have the App installed.  

Standing up and lifting out of the swing are common demons I battle.  When I intentionally pay attention to managing my body elevation during the swing and keep my chest down, over the ball and thru the swing I hit center of face contact and the results direction wise are usually pretty good.  

 

I also see the problem on all clubs but I’m a one length player.  I do tend to see the problem more as I go towards my lower lofted irons and that is probably related to the progressive lie angles within my King Forged Tec One set.  I don’t see that problem on my F7 one set and those lie angles are all the same at 62.5ish.
 

After reading one of your prior posts a different thread a couple of weeks ago,  I did the dry ease ball marker test on my KFTO 7i only and it showed I needed to go a touch flatter on the 7i.  I don’t know the exact loft on that  7i yet but I’m guessing it’s between 63 and 64.  When I was at a local shop last night trying out the older Mizuno Shaft Optimizer, afterwards I had the lie angle checked on my KFTO 5i and it measured 66*.  I also had an F7 5i one test club checked and it measured 62*.  Hence, lie angles on my KFTO set do indeed need adjusted.  
 

I have been doing some shaft and SW testing using the 62* F7 one 5i head.  Data analysis has shown as I add lead tape it reduces my left/right dispersion StDev.  I think I have found 14g additional lead tape is where peak performance is but I need to hit a few more shots and rerun the data analysis to get my “N” aka sample size to good statistical size.  So far the data has shown ball speed, distance and dispersion all seem to peak the 14g added tape configuration.  I haven’t specifically put anything on the face to look at strike patterns but I have logged and recorded my impressions of strike quality for each shot.  
 

At the 14g config that translates to SW of D3.  Note, the 6g badge on the back of test head is missing.  Club is 36”, Winn DriTac Lite, Recoil ZT9 F2 shaft, total club weight is 357g.  Ball data off SkyTrak, ball speed averages 110 to 112, launch angle 19.1, 4000 backspin, -502 side spin(draw shape) carry 167ish, total 180ish, peak height 25 yards, club speed 79, PTI 1.41.  
 

Pic below shows my stance alignment for all my test shots.  Ball would be placed on red dot for all shot data.  Red dot is on target line.  Edge of hitting mat and face of LM are parallel to target line.  Ignore the XXg data in the chart as that was old data from 12/26 I pulled in and I don’t know details for that hitting session.  14g, 8g, 10g lead tape shots were all hit with a standardize setup to minimize all other variables.  I have more shot data to add including an 18g config but haven’t had a chance to rerun numbers in MiniTab yet to create new graph. 

 

Btw...your insights and posts are usually spot on and very valuable to tinkering weekend warriors like me. Thanks!  Now with all this info, can you help me connect the dots and tell me what lightweight affordable (less than $50 each) 50g and 60g shafts might be good ideas to test to find maximize distance and tightest StDev?  

26B494B6-2A26-431E-B555-B9E0AD16FDA4.jpeg.dd27b01ca68dcd6c0cafb49365589ec3.jpeg
23285346-5270-49AB-8531-467D6C423C22.jpeg.3b3e8a477a7104a95e4e26c0948b3f88.jpeg
FA1EFAB9-C1E6-485E-B3D8-9135453FD274.jpeg.1f151b4c36c03d2d5f29e033bb931f59.jpeg
6448CD85-12C1-402C-9872-D689AF19B490.jpeg.c63f3ed6293ecc3bd4754d1a853f6c40.jpeg
2F3FAB00-FAA8-42FE-B81D-0803856B9DD5.jpeg.df2512793d24cb4abfe4e5f87043b48e.jpeg
E08F7A5C-73A5-4C48-9CF9-FD1B4A2AA495.jpeg.3250f7af7a698fa968958dc76ab9a6b6.jpeg

 


Both head weight and lie angle seem to need a small tweak here, but let me just add that club fitters very often mis judge the need for play length, and confuse it with head wgt.

Example, the player improves impact going plus 0.5" using the same head wgt, the question is WHY did it improve? Was is plus 0.5" or was it 3 SWP equal to 7 gram,s head wgt or a combination of both? To know we have to isolate head wgt and PL, by adding 7 grams on "std" play length to see if the improvement came from the added head wgt, Play length, or both....

In your case, the best fit MIGHT BE a combo of plus 0.5" and added 7 grams instead of 14 since 3 SWP came from going longer....
"The hole grail" is found when both TOTAL and BALANCE is ideal

Thin shots is often a symptom of a head wht to light, if shaft wgt is "high enough", so is toe side impact, so keep up tuning on head wgt until its too much and dial back.

Lie angle changes also influences on SW values and to simply it we can use this numbers
- 4* in change of lie = 1 SWP
- 1 SWP = 2 grams
= 1* change on lie is equal to 0.5 grams of head weight
Going up right, is "loosing" head weight, going flat is adding head wgt
 

Edited by Howard_Jones
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@Howard_Jones I agree with everything you stated.  The 5i test club I’ve been hitting wasn’t initially built with me in mind. It was built for a buddy that is 5’3” also using one length clubs.  I’m 5’11” and my forged tec one length set clubs are 37” and those are the ones I thin so the 1/2” short still applies.  Thanks for explaining lie angle impact on SW.  You saved me from searching for a prior post where I read the same thing.

 

After building and hitting my buddies 5i test club a few shots, I seen I gained a full club in distance and trajectory looked great.  His test club is all but 100g lighter than my normal 5i.  Hence, why I gained a full club in distance.  I probably oughta measure to see if there are loft differences too.  My testing was only to better understand relationship of SW and dispersion StDev to prove to myself there was a significant statistical difference using the lightest club I could put in my hands quickly to test.  
 

Length of his test club is completely wrong for me but lie angle is better.  I will have my lie angles tweaked immediately.  I’ll have to build myself a test club at ideal length and lie for me, 37.5” @ 62*, and redo everything now that the StDev data I’ve collected makes me a huge believer and quantified the opportunity I’m leaving on the table.  
 

Golf is totally a numbers and math based game when you really break it down.  The scary part of this process is there is no way to thoroughly do all this and truly dial-in in a single fitting and there are so many sets just sold off the rack or after a brief generic LM fitting.  
 

There is so much more value in a thorough and proper fitting by a competent, knowledgable and skilled fitter than the materials being bought and played.  Next step for me is to figure out (2 or 3) possibly light shafts right for me before I proceed.  Thanks again for your thoughts and guidance!

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