Do you really trap and compress?

[Nard_S]

Delofting is not about velocity alone and more to do with sequence and application of velocity. Deloft happens because bottom of the swing is moved well forward.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Nard_S

[ZA206]

I feel like I strike 3 or 4 shots a round like this. It’s something I’ve been working on in my range sessions, but is difficult and takes a bunch of focus (not my normal contact pattern).

 

For me, it boils down to focusing on hitting the ball in the exact center of the club face with a slightly descending blow.. My normal shot is kind of a sweep where I hit the ball a couple grooves below the center of the club face... I get a higher flight with a lot of spin. The compressed shot comes out way hotter, faster, lower and more piercing.... it also feels amazing like I’m smashing a marshmallow. I sit around and day dream about that feel....

 

ZA

Edited March 9, 2021 by ZA206

[TheDeanAbides]

12 hours ago, ZA206 said:

I feel like I strike 3 or 4 shots a round like this. It’s something I’ve been working on in my range sessions, but is difficult and takes a bunch of focus (not my normal contact pattern).

 

For me, it boils down to focusing on hitting the ball in the exact center of the club face with a slightly descending blow.. My normal shot is kind of a sweep where I hit the ball a couple grooves below the center of the club face... I get a higher flight with a lot of spin. The compressed shot comes out way hotter, faster, lower and more piercing.... it also feels amazing like I’m smashing a marshmallow. I sit around and day dream about that feel....

 

ZA

It's the reason I play golf. 

[EatingASalad301]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:21 AM, MtlJayMan said:

With all the issues that we see; from takeaway to the top, from transition to pivot and release… and all the compensations to fight these that result, for the vast majority of swings, in the wonderful combo of body stall and timely flip to some instance… what % of people would you say really trap and compress the ball with a mid-iron?...

 

I’m guessing it’s less than we think – even though people get to a reasonable shaft lean at impact from a face on view (and that’s already a minority of ams) even with less dynamic loft and a shallow angle of attack, I would assume a lot of them don’t really pivot through and play with a more down the line release than those who can get to a complete ‘DTL lean’ by trapping and compressing effectively the golf ball…

 

You know – that ‘woosh’ sound you get to hear once in a while and just see the ball explode out of the face…

 

And what do you think would surprise us the most from the guys that can achieve this – early and amount of pressure on the lead side? ‘patient’ transition to sync up and pivot through even though the swing is quick? Particular ‘delaying’ wrist action at the bottom of the swing? Speed at which the lead shoulder ‘pulls’ the body around (more than up) in the hitting zone? How quickly the hands exit low and left after impact? Other?

Compression is a direct result of a properly hit shot. Forearm strength also helps, but a good release and a stronger setup with the shaft forward aids this. The issue is people don't hit the center of the face, and they don't know how to. Therefore "trying" to compress it is kinda useless.

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:16 PM, ZA206 said:

I feel like I strike 3 or 4 shots a round like this. It’s something I’ve been working on in my range sessions, but is difficult and takes a bunch of focus (not my normal contact pattern).

 

For me, it boils down to focusing on hitting the ball in the exact center of the club face with a slightly descending blow.. My normal shot is kind of a sweep where I hit the ball a couple grooves below the center of the club face... I get a higher flight with a lot of spin. The compressed shot comes out way hotter, faster, lower and more piercing.... it also feels amazing like I’m smashing a marshmallow. I sit around and day dream about that feel....

 

ZA

 

I love it. When I pure one I don't even feel like I've hit anything. 

 

Oddly when I pure a shot I don't hear impact at all. When I take my practice swing, I get a nice big "whoosh" but I never hear it on my real swing, and unless I hit it wrong (my misses are typically low on the face or on the toe, both of which produce a giant knocking sound with an iron), I don't even "hear" impact. I hear it on other peoples' swings, but not my own. I think my brain just filters it out. I've never figured that one out.

 

[TheDeanAbides]

26 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I love it. When I pure one I don't even feel like I've hit anything. 

 

Oddly when I pure a shot I don't hear impact at all. When I take my practice swing, I get a nice big "whoosh" but I never hear it on my real swing, and unless I hit it wrong (my misses are typically low on the face or on the toe, both of which produce a giant knocking sound with an iron), I don't even "hear" impact. I hear it on other peoples' swings, but not my own. I think my brain just filters it out. I've never figured that one out.

 

That's because we all have blind spots in our swings. There's a great awareness exercise in Extraordinary Golf where you focus your attention on various parts of your swing to see if you can become aware of them. It's enlightening.

[ferrispgm]

Here is something crazy to ponder....for good players the hands are moving up and the wrists are actually "flipping" coming into impact...the difference though is the flipping starts later and after they have flexed in the downswing.  For bad players they never flex or don't flex enough..combined with poor pivots/body position/arm position, etc. the flipping happens early and you get the clubhead ahead of the hands in an effort to make square contact.

[TheDeanAbides]

10 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

Here is something crazy to ponder....for good players the hands are moving up and the wrists are actually "flipping" coming into impact...the difference though is the flipping starts later and after they have flexed in the downswing.  For bad players they never flex or don't flex enough..combined with poor pivots/body position/arm position, etc. the flipping happens early and you get the clubhead ahead of the hands in an effort to make square contact.

There's that great video of Duval blowing an interviewers mind when he demonstrates what his wrists are doing through impact. The guy can't get "Isn't that a flip!?" out of his head. 

[hoganfan924]

6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

There's that great video of Duval blowing an interviewers mind when he demonstrates what his wrists are doing through impact. The guy can't get "Isn't that a flip!?" out of his head. 

Part of the problem is that the term "flipping," is an imprecise and undefined term, so means different things to different people.   Some call early doris-flexion of the left wrist prior to impact flipping, while others describe flipping as intentional rolling of the forearms (supinating the left, pronating the right) to square the face.  Angled hinging (dorsi-flexion of the left wrist) is a perfectly valid release style, used by a lot of great ballstrikers, especially those with very strong grips.

[hoganfan924]

"Trapping" the ball between the clubface and ground is a myth, but the feel and sound of the effort to do so, isn't.  There are a lot of good ballstrikers who are "pickers" who barely scrape the ground or take much divot, they have shallow angles of attack with irons and are often handle raisers through impact, with shoulders much less open than guys who "thump it."  The right forearm and side not really "supporting the blow."  The sound can be very pingy/tinny/hollow.  Then there are guys who really thump it, and you can hear that deeper sound, some of which must be from ground interaction, but I think some, is that the impact is more supported, or the deceleration prior to, and through impact is less.   It would be interesting to do some research on this, as I've thought for years that players like Hogan either were able to continue to accelerate the clubhead into impact, or had less deceleration into impact than other players.  This is also related to shaft kick/lead deflection, IMO.  Maybe why Hogan played telephone poles.

[TheDeanAbides]

36 minutes ago, hoganfan924 said:

Part of the problem is that the term "flipping," is an imprecise and undefined term, so means different things to different people.   Some call early doris-flexion of the left wrist prior to impact flipping, while others describe flipping as intentional rolling of the forearms (supinating the left, pronating the right) to square the face.  Angled hinging (dorsi-flexion of the left wrist) is a perfectly valid release style, used by a lot of great ballstrikers, especially those with very strong grips.

That's true. 

[GreatStrike]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:50 AM, MtlJayMan said:

I’ll bite - how so? latest technology proving its a myth?

 

I feel that I trap and compress on a regular basis. I also feel that I trap and compress my putts - largely because when you putt on an arc with toe flow you will trap the ball  with your putting stroke.

 

The way I perceive trapping the ball, whether it's  a 5 iron  or a putt, is much like how you would collect some grit  or spilled cereal from a desktop or table (or floor) with your hand  or when using a sweeping device. You actually want to use your hand or the sweeping device to trap the grit/cereal so you can move it. You could scoop it or push it or flick it, but the best method to move it is to precisely trap it.  

 

      

Edited June 8, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[ATLgopher]

On 3/5/2021 at 4:29 PM, SylvesterLundgren said:

Is that the whistle/ball spinning sound the ball makes when it’s quiet? That’s what I imagine when you guys are saying that. Usually the sound that comes when you catch one real good??

always wondered about this. Been on the range next to a couple guys that had that sound. Like when I’m at a tour event.

 

never heard it on my on shots, which isn’t a surprise...since I’m not any good 

[trilerian]

I don’t know if you guys are talking about the whizzing sound the ball can make when it leaves the club head or a sound that the club actually makes. But I can tell you that to get the whizzing sound you don’t need a particularly good swing, you just need to create ball speed and spin.  Their are a lot of inefficient swings out there that I am sure can do this, cause I can’t be the only one.

[Paddy_2_Iron]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:03 PM, Nard_S said:

I've come across 3 guys in last 3 years who are like this. It's completely different sound, an explosion. This one guy was an urbane 45  y.o. ,slightly round & soft gentlemen. was hammering range balls, 150 yard PW, a driver that was banging the net  50 feet up and 240 yards away. It was unreal because he was not a physical specimen of any sort, but he could smash it with great rhythm and poise.

 

I played with a really large man width wise, and he compressed his irons effortless.  He just had fantastic hand eye and body coordination.  You could tell the guy could bowl or do anything, just had the fat gene.  

[TheDeanAbides]

11 hours ago, trilerian said:

I don’t know if you guys are talking about the whizzing sound the ball can make when it leaves the club head or a sound that the club actually makes. But I can tell you that to get the whizzing sound you don’t need a particularly good swing, you just need to create ball speed and spin.  Their are a lot of inefficient swings out there that I am sure can do this, cause I can’t be the only one.

Truth. 

[Stuart_G]

On 3/13/2021 at 12:34 PM, hoganfan924 said:

 It would be interesting to do some research on this, as I've thought for years that players like Hogan either were able to continue to accelerate the clubhead into impact, or had less deceleration into impact than other players.  This is also related to shaft kick/lead deflection, IMO.  Maybe why Hogan played telephone poles.

 

Can't say how accurate it is, but I ran across an article someplace that said he played the stiffest shafts he could find because he couldn't stand to feel any loading/unloading during the swing.  It reportedly made him feel like he had lost some control over the club head.   And it's been shown that for some people, the stiffness feel can be a factor in the resulting swing speed.  So it's not always just about the actual dynamics of the shaft loading/unloading.   In fact the inconsistency of the few papers I've read on the effect of stiffness almost leads one to believe that the "feel factor" is a potentially bigger influence than the actual dynamics of the shaft.

 

But I'm certainly not against any kind of proper research adding to the mix.

 

[Nard_S]

12 hours ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

I played with a really large man width wise, and he compressed his irons effortless.  He just had fantastic hand eye and body coordination.  You could tell the guy could bowl or do anything, just had the fat gene.  

This guy was not obese, he just was rather ordinary maybe 15 lbs overweight. He did not have an overly long or short swing either. The thing that stuck with me was how hard he fired the hands from a top. I still work on this aspect because its's not the hand speed that's difficult it's getting the rest of body to do it's thing right which means altering some of my false notions. AMG talks about how the lead arm is the fastest body part in the early down swing. That's this guy, fast lead arm.

[Nard_S]

On 3/13/2021 at 12:34 PM, hoganfan924 said:

It would be interesting to do some research on this, as I've thought for years that players like Hogan either were able to continue to accelerate the clubhead into impact, or had less deceleration into impact than other players.

I've seen data suggesting that average PGA player bottoms iron swing 3"-4" in front of ball. Average golfer bottoms at ball, a better low indexer maybe 1-2" in front. Pro's have a different disposition approaching impact. They do not come close to decelerating into impact even though peak hand speed happened long before it.

[ATLgopher]

19 hours ago, trilerian said:

I don’t know if you guys are talking about the whizzing sound the ball can make when it leaves the club head or a sound that the club actually makes. But I can tell you that to get the whizzing sound you don’t need a particularly good swing, you just need to create ball speed and spin.  Their are a lot of inefficient swings out there that I am sure can do this, cause I can’t be the only one.

ball sound.

 

and that makes sense on inefficient swings. I tend to catch everything a little heavy (or a lot). Sure that impacts my ball speed, so I never get that sound

Edited June 8, 2021 by ATLgopher

[Paddy_2_Iron]

6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

This guy was not obese, he just was rather ordinary maybe 15 lbs overweight. He did not have an overly long or short swing either. The thing that stuck with me was how hard he fired the hands from a top. I still work on this aspect because its's not the hand speed that's difficult it's getting the rest of body to do it's thing right which means altering some of my false notions. AMG talks about how the lead arm is the fastest body part in the early down swing. That's this guy, fast lead arm.

Interesting.  

 

Yeah def not the guy I was envisioning.  I am talking 5 ft 7 250 lbs with a smooth long backswing.  It defied conventional logic, you just don't see large men like this swinging like this.   Don't get me wrong he had some abbreviation such as his follow through but through impact it was the same every time.  He may have been a somebody at one time.  

[Ri_Redneck]

On 3/5/2021 at 11:41 AM, MtlJayMan said:

Fair enough - I’ll rephrase then; to hit the ball with less loft than the club has and on an arc tangent to the target line and exiting left 

I do that on everything but my driver. Fairly decent CHS though. Around 165-170 with 7i.

 

BT

[bonvivantva]

On 3/5/2021 at 10:21 AM, MtlJayMan said:

With all the issues that we see; from takeaway to the top, from transition to pivot and release… and all the compensations to fight these that result, for the vast majority of swings, in the wonderful combo of body stall and timely flip to some instance… what % of people would you say really trap and compress the ball with a mid-iron?...

 

I’m guessing it’s less than we think – even though people get to a reasonable shaft lean at impact from a face on view (and that’s already a minority of ams) even with less dynamic loft and a shallow angle of attack, I would assume a lot of them don’t really pivot through and play with a more down the line release than those who can get to a complete ‘DTL lean’ by trapping and compressing effectively the golf ball…

 

You know – that ‘woosh’ sound you get to hear once in a while and just see the ball explode out of the face…

 

And what do you think would surprise us the most from the guys that can achieve this – early and amount of pressure on the lead side? ‘patient’ transition to sync up and pivot through even though the swing is quick? Particular ‘delaying’ wrist action at the bottom of the swing? Speed at which the lead shoulder ‘pulls’ the body around (more than up) in the hitting zone? How quickly the hands exit low and left after impact? Other?

If we're talking about a swing someone would admire at the range, I think a lot of it has to do with swing speed.  My dad is a single digit handicap, but he's more of a picker with higher ball flight.  He's also older, and his 7i carries about 150.  He is very consistent, but nobody is captivated by his swing at the range.  Now I do know what you're talking about though.  I've seen (and heard) some swings that were just magnificent.  The ball just rockets off the face and climbs and climbs.  I've watched people with DJ-like wrists and lofts of shaft lean hit really low long shots.  I've also seen some amazing high draws.  All these guys were hitting it solid, but with varying trajectories.  I think the one commonality that really turns heads is swing speed.  The more effortless the swing speed looks, the more impressive.

Edited June 11, 2021 by bonvivantva

[ChipNRun]

I view "trap" as more of a figure of speech.

 

What I have sensed on a solid iron shot: I feel the ball hang on the clubface for a split second before turf impact in front of ball. This is a "ball first" impact.

 

Also, trying to hit a trap draw on a muddy day is a great way to sprain your wrist. If the feet sink in a half inch, ouch!

 

On 3/6/2021 at 8:45 AM, ThinkingPlus said:

Excellent post.  Without speed, delofting irons as the touring pros do will lead to hitting ground balls with 7 irons.

 

In past seasons I would have a good stretch of iron play that suddenly fell apart. I was having trouble getting the ball up. A lesson always showed that I was overdoing forward shaft lean, coming in steep and delofting the club too much.

[kiddzizzle]

On 3/5/2021 at 1:48 PM, MtlJayMan said:

Agree completely - I would guess that most good players think they do it, but don't... playing with a few local pros that 'shaft lean' (great players) like a lot do - but night and day when I get to play with the friend of a friend that missed the cut once at the US Open (yes that US Open); don't know how to say it but he definitely 'squeezes' it differently; pivot related - and (on full swings ovbiously) it's shot out of a cannon; not even the same game / same distances...

This is the post right here.

 

Played golf while I was attending community college. Somehow played well enough in States and Regional's to make it to Nationals. Field of 94 golfers (I finished 89th lol) and I LOVE golf so I sat at the range and watched everyone come and go. One guy could really hit the golf ball and I ended up playing my practice round with him. His dad was a teaching pro and he played his whole life. Amazing what proper technique, a watchful/trained eye, and time to work on your game can do. He finished 2nd that week with an aggregate score of 2 over during the 4 day event.

 

While I was in California, I played with a guy who was chasing Monday Qualifier events and said he wanted to skip Q-School and man, it's just different. He had a shot on an uphill par 5 with a semi wet lie, picked it CLEAN without taking a blade of grass with an iron from about 230 straight uphill. To hear it sizzling and see it fly is just other worldly but EVERY shot was like that. Truly a spectacle to watch up close. Said he only works on is his balance and every swing is as hard as he can in which he then transfers all that energy into the ball, actually compressing it.

 

I've played with at least 1000 different players, from club pros, to aspiring tour players, to lower level college golfers, and I would say no more than 2 of them could actually compress a golf ball.

[kiddzizzle]

I, by no means, am saying that no one can compress the ball when everything goes right in their swing but not many people know what they did and how to repeat it. I've hit a handful of shots where the ball sticks to the face and the flight is reminiscent of my favorite tour players but I don't know what I did so I can't repeat it every swing.

 

Even when I went to a PGA event, every single player had AMAZING positions, strikes, and flights but even amongst the elites, there was those who were just different, and it's exactly who you think it would be. Rahm, Justin Thomas, DJ, Rory, Day, Matsuyama, Koepka, Woods, (fill in anyone else I can't think of right now). Basically any dude you see who's constantly contending in all the majors and exclusive PGA events are better than the elites.

 

Guys like Jonas Blixt, Brian Gay, Kevin Kisner, Adam Scott, Ian Poulter, Zach Johnson, and even Rickie Fowler all hit it really really really good but not like those elites man. And side by side, it's not even fair.

 

Hearing someone like Rory hit a driver is like hearing a car crash. Impact breaks the sound barrier, the ball simply sizzles by and screams the whole 300+ yards while climbing ever so gently and it's piercing through the sky. It would easily kill a bird if the two collided mid air. If my ball hit a bird, it would probably get annoyed and poop on my car.

[RobertBaron]

2 hours ago, kiddzizzle said:

If my ball hit a bird, it would probably get annoyed and poop on my car.

I’d do the same if I were hit by your ball. 

[Nels55]

Interesting topic.  Been around and around on this one in the past.  I suspect that part of the reason that top players tend to have more shaft lean at impact is that they have more speed and their brains don't want to see the ball ballooning up in the air.  Folks who can play a little bit and hit with more vertical shaft at impact maybe do so because they don't have enough speed to deloft the club. 

 

Of course the counter argument is that getting the hands in front at impact with a lot of lag produces more speed and better shots.

 

I remember reading in 'The Big Miss' that Hank Haney wanted to Tiger to have a more vertical shaft at impact and would always worry that Tiger was getting too much shaft lean whenever Tiger started talking about how far he was hitting his irons.  Hank's theory was that the more vertical shaft was easier to reproduce and made for better distance control.  LOL I have played with guys who were not very good and had really strong grips and could hit their nine iron 160 yards with a lot of shaft lean.  'Just a nine iron for me baby!'.  They were lucky to hit their 3 wood 180 yards though...

[getitdaily]

I'm 100% a trapper/compressor...