Swing direction vs path driver and AOA

[stingerfade]

Hi guys just trying to understand the geometry here...

 

assuming the face is good...

 

for irons I completely understand if you hit down on the ball 5 degrees with a zero swing direction the path will be 5 degrees right (if path matches direction) correct??

 

so with a driver of trying to hit 5 up and swing direction is zero then the path would be 5 degrees left?? 
 

if this is true to hit a draw with the driver AND hit up is it best to change your swing direction to 5 as opposed to trying to get a 5 degree in/out path?? seems hard to drop it inside 5 degrees while hitting up when you could change the direction instead??

not trying to hit up that much in reality just trying to get the picture correct in my mind how the plane works on a high driver draw 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by stingerfade

[pinhigh27]

Swing direction and HSP are interchangeable. 

 

swing direction is a 2d concept of how the club is moving in the left right direction at impact. How the club is moving up and down causes a shift in that movement in 3D, which gives you path. 

 

IMO hitting up with a draw is not ideal, bc as you said you are shifting path left with your AoA. so to get path right of face, you have a somewhat significant swing direction or HSP to the right, to account for that leftward shift due to AoA and still have a net rightward path. 

 

IMO the ideal is to draw irons, especially shorter ones and then to fade it progressively more throughout the bag as the clubs get longer and AoA will naturally shallow. With this you can keep a consistent swing direction or HSP and then you're basically just relying on the AoA's shift on the path to get your curvature. 

 

So for example if  you have a 5 right HSP or swing direction and then a +3 AoA shifts it 3 left (driver), you have a 2 path, so its going 2 degrees to the right. 

 

For irons which have a higher VSP the shift is less, so roughly 1/2 the ratio, so a -5 AoA would shift path 2.5 degrees right. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by pinhigh27

[stingerfade]

11 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Swing direction and HSP are interchangeable. 

 

swing direction is a 2d concept of how the club is moving in the left right direction at impact. How the club is moving up and down causes a shift in that movement in 3D, which gives you path. 

 

IMO hitting up with a draw is not ideal, bc as you said you are shifting path left with your AoA. so to get path right of face, you have a somewhat significant swing direction or HSP to the right, to account for that leftward shift due to AoA and still have a net rightward path. 

 

IMO the ideal is to draw irons, especially shorter ones and then to fade it progressively more throughout the bag as the clubs get longer and AoA will naturally shallow. With this you can keep a consistent swing direction or HSP and then you're basically just relying on the AoA's shift on the path to get your curvature. 

 

So for example if  you have a 5 right HSP or swing direction and then a +3 AoA shifts it 3 left (driver), you have a 2 path, so its going 2 degrees to the right. 

 

For irons which have a higher VSP the shift is less, so roughly 1/2 the ratio, so a -5 AoA would shift path 2.5 degrees right. 

Thanks. So my logic is correct in how the geometry is working? 
 

i make significant strides in my application if I can really picture the concept image in my mind and for some reason the hit up driver picture has always been hard to picture for whatever reason. I think it’s hard to see a path going right while hitting up because I’m imagining it with a square stance (swing direction of zero)....because it doesn’t make sense! Ha

Edited March 6, 2021 by stingerfade

[pinhigh27]

yes, only nitpicky thing is the iron difference magnitude wise. 

 

for this part 

"if this is true to hit a draw with the driver AND hit up is it best to change your swing direction to 5 as opposed to trying to get a 5 degree in/out path?? seems hard to drop it inside 5 degrees while hitting up when you could change the direction instead??"

 

You need the final product to have a path right of the face to hit a draw (excluding gear effect), so if you want to hit up and hit a push draw(most peoples desired shot) you need to swing more right horizontally than you are swinging up, ie your HSP could be 5 right, AoA 3 up and the path will be 2 right. So if your face points 1 right that would be a perfect push draw that ends on target for a solid shot. 

[stingerfade]

34 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

yes, only nitpicky thing is the iron difference magnitude wise. 

 

for this part 

"if this is true to hit a draw with the driver AND hit up is it best to change your swing direction to 5 as opposed to trying to get a 5 degree in/out path?? seems hard to drop it inside 5 degrees while hitting up when you could change the direction instead??"

 

You need the final product to have a path right of the face to hit a draw (excluding gear effect), so if you want to hit up and hit a push draw(most peoples desired shot) you need to swing more right horizontally than you are swinging up, ie your HSP could be 5 right, AoA 3 up and the path will be 2 right. So if your face points 1 right that would be a perfect push draw that ends on target for a solid shot. 

Yea that’s what I understand but my question is is it easier or more consistent to change the swing direction to the right instead of trying to get the path right. 
 

I always hear you need to get path right to counter the up but seems to make sense to get the swing direction right instead of just path. 
 

im a newbie with trackman so you’re terms HSP and VSP are adding a level of confusion. I’m concentrating on path, swing direction and aoa primarily haha

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

Yea that’s what I understand but my question is is it easier or more consistent to change the swing direction to the right instead of trying to get the path right. 
 

I always hear you need to get path right to counter the up but seems to make sense to get the swing direction right instead of just path. 
 

im a newbie with trackman so you’re terms HSP and VSP are adding a level of confusion. I’m concentrating on path, swing direction and aoa primarily haha

Neither.  Improve your swing and the numbers sort out.

 

Don't listen to @pinhigh27 I know An old fat man who flies it by him and beats him like a drum every time they play.

Edited March 6, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[pinhigh27]

HSP is the same thing as swing direction. VSP is kinda unrelated for this discussion, more so for just explaining why irons have less shift than driver does from AoA. 

 

Increasing swing direction to the right makes your path more right if you keep AoA the same. 

 

They probably mean you need to get HSP right to counter the up. Path would be the incorrect thinking as that already has the plane shift from the AoA factored in. 

 

def agree with monte this stuff is minutiae and if you improve your swing it all trends to where you need to be. It's all interconnected too, so I don't really like the thinking of " I need to swing right to counter the up" because when you try to swing more right it's probably going to change your AoA and get a different shift and probably your contact point as well which adds another wrench into everything when you get into gear effects, essentially chasing your tail. 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by pinhigh27

[stingerfade]

1 hour ago, pinhigh27 said:

HSP is the same thing as swing direction. VSP is kinda unrelated for this discussion, more so for just explaining why irons have less shift than driver does from AoA. 

 

Increasing swing direction to the right makes your path more right if you keep AoA the same. 

 

They probably mean you need to get HSP right to counter the up. Path would be the incorrect thinking as that already has the plane shift from the AoA factored in. 

 

def agree with monte this stuff is minutiae and if you improve your swing it all trends to where you need to be. It's all interconnected too, so I don't really like the thinking of " I need to swing right to counter the up" because when you try to swing more right it's probably going to change your AoA and get a different shift and probably your contact point as well which adds another wrench into everything when you get into gear effects, essentially chasing your tail. 

 

 

I’m just trying to learn how all the numbers work and why I can easily hit draws with irons but can’t at all with driver without a fake  “toe draw” with flipping my hands. Always down and left. Can’t get path from inside with driver so I’m just trying to figure it out mentally

 

so maybe a better question is how would I hit a high draw with the driver if I needed to? And please don’t say hit it up from the inside haha  😎

Edited March 6, 2021 by stingerfade

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, stingerfade said:

I’m just trying to learn how all the numbers work and why I can easily hit draws with irons but can’t at all with driver without a fake  “toe draw” with flipping my hands. Always down and left. Can’t get path from inside with driver so I’m just trying to figure it out mentally

 

so maybe a better question is how would I hit a high draw with the driver if I needed to? And please don’t say hit it up from the inside haha  😎

If you absolutely need to hit a draw off the tee, hit a 3w. The ball position and angle of attack make it very hard to draw a modern driver without bringing in a two way miss. 

Trackman university has calculators If you must see the numbers 

 

[pinhigh27]

9 hours ago, stingerfade said:

I’m just trying to learn how all the numbers work and why I can easily hit draws with irons but can’t at all with driver without a fake  “toe draw” with flipping my hands. Always down and left. Can’t get path from inside with driver so I’m just trying to figure it out mentally

 

so maybe a better question is how would I hit a high draw with the driver if I needed to? And please don’t say hit it up from the inside haha  😎

It’s probably because of what I mentioned originally, you have a positive AoA or less negative AoA with woods than irons. So for irons the path is shifted more to the right. I wouldn’t call that a bad thing at all

[stingerfade]

8 hours ago, Krt22 said:

If you absolutely need to hit a draw off the tee, hit a 3w. The ball position and angle of attack make it very hard to draw a modern driver without bringing in a two way miss. 

Trackman university has calculators If you must see the numbers 

 

But I don’t want to! I want to be able to hit it like Rory hahaha (we are the same size) 🤪🤪🤪

[Krt22]

51 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

But I don’t want to! I want to be able to hit it like Rory hahaha (we are the same size) 🤪🤪🤪

I get it, I play with plenty of guys that want to see every single club move right to left. Rory is one of the few (if not only) players that seems to effectively manage those launch conditions while still hitting a draw. Most ams end up hitting it low on the face or off the heel (see those TM numbers on here all the time) and bring gear effect into the equation (myself included), then scratch their heads why the ball isn't going that far or still spinning 3k, despite hitting +5 AoA . Modern drivers have largely eliminated the need to get into extreme AoAs, while still being high launch/low spin. I draw every club off the deck, but hate when I see driver go left because I know only a s*** swing will produce that ball flight lol.

[RichieHunt]

Tour players tend to favor drawing their irons.  With the driver it's anybody's guess.   Either way, compared to amateurs most Tour pros are hitting it with much less curvature than the amateurs.

 

There's plenty of Tour players that hit up and draw it.  Rory being a prime example.  At their level, swing path and direction is relatively unimportant compared to clubface control...particularly when it comes to leaving the clubface too far open at impact.   Attack angles are funny for Tour pros because some guys do much better with a downward AoA with the driver and some do better with an upward AoA.  I would recommend that they don't get more than -3 down with the driver as those players tend to struggle with the driver the most.  But there are players who switch to a positive AoA and greatly struggle because of it.  Really depends on release points.  Get Jason Dufner hitting +3 up and he goes from a very good driver of the ball to a very poor driver the ball.  The opposite for Rory.

 

I've seen a guy like John Merrick who went from being one of the best drivers of the ball on Tour with a very upward AoA, but couldn't hit an iron to save his life.  He then lowered his AoA and became a better than average driver of the ball, but a vastly improved iron player.  Then it got too steep and he couldn't recover.  I've seen that scenario happen quite often.

 

The point being is you probably are not going to be able to force yourself into Trackman #'s and hit the ball better.  You likely need to figure out what works well for you and what you struggle with and then you can get an idea of the range of numbers on Trackman that tend to occur when you're striking it well and when you're outside those numbers you're striking it poorly and you can fix accordingly.

 

 

 

 

RH

[stingerfade]

3 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

Tour players tend to favor drawing their irons.  With the driver it's anybody's guess.   Either way, compared to amateurs most Tour pros are hitting it with much less curvature than the amateurs.

 

There's plenty of Tour players that hit up and draw it.  Rory being a prime example.  At their level, swing path and direction is relatively unimportant compared to clubface control...particularly when it comes to leaving the clubface too far open at impact.   Attack angles are funny for Tour pros because some guys do much better with a downward AoA with the driver and some do better with an upward AoA.  I would recommend that they don't get more than -3 down with the driver as those players tend to struggle with the driver the most.  But there are players who switch to a positive AoA and greatly struggle because of it.  Really depends on release points.  Get Jason Dufner hitting +3 up and he goes from a very good driver of the ball to a very poor driver the ball.  The opposite for Rory.

 

I've seen a guy like John Merrick who went from being one of the best drivers of the ball on Tour with a very upward AoA, but couldn't hit an iron to save his life.  He then lowered his AoA and became a better than average driver of the ball, but a vastly improved iron player.  Then it got too steep and he couldn't recover.  I've seen that scenario happen quite often.

 

The point being is you probably are not going to be able to force yourself into Trackman #'s and hit the ball better.  You likely need to figure out what works well for you and what you struggle with and then you can get an idea of the range of numbers on Trackman that tend to occur when you're striking it well and when you're outside those numbers you're striking it poorly and you can fix accordingly.

 

 

 

 

RH

Great post thanks....yea I’m just trying to learn like I said. Counterproductive when people just jump on the “don’t even try it too much bad can happen” when I’m just trying to understand why. My driver aoa is usually down 3 so it’s an issue but my swing is improving thanks to monte online and that number the other day was about 1 down to 1 up and way more manageable. Path still out to in a little excessively but improving. Sometimes I just want to try and hit way exaggerated shots to feel what it’s like. Golf is fun and so is the learning part for me. 
 

hence the name stingerfade as that’s my primary drive pattern and it works but short and spins too much