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Can’t pivot properly to save my life


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Short disclaimer; I’ve always been a down the line release guy mainly caused by stall and timely flip - that led me to a single cap but nowhere near scratch... and I’ve been working for half a year or so on trying to ingrain more of a rotational release - pivot driving... swing thoughts are; lead pressure by P5 / Rose drill to sync up / hold trail wrist extension / rotate through... but as you can see I can’t exit low and left to save my life (only able to do so on 9-3 drills and slowed down full swings) - and I’m trying to find the root cause... anything glaring that you see? Thanks guys!

 

Also dealing with unusual pulls; but playing here with strong lead grip + neutral trail which kinda explain it when the flip happens at the bottom...

Edited by MtlJayMan
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I wish it swung it like that 😀

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I’d like to see a face on, but it’s a sequencing issue.  Hip turn reaches max rotation too early in the backswing and arms are late in accelerating in transition .

 

Left arm and hands are too close to the body from P5-P6

 

The changes needed are subtle, which is more difficult to pin down feel wise.  
 

If your hip turn started later, your arms swing was a bit shorter and you allowed your left arm to accelerate earlier, you’d be forced to open up more.

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All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

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Bend over more, bend knees less. Hip center behind ankles and armpits/ hands too close to body.     Have ee which gets everything closer to ball but as monte noted the sequence is off - your arms are around p5.5 when knees get square and this should happen by p5. So between setup and ee you aren’t giving your arms much space thru Impact.   Soon as right hip comes out your pelvis moves toward ball and you back chest away to make room so you extend right arm early to get to ball and don’t right side bend until after impact.   
 

this can help for setup.   
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

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6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’d like to see a face on, but it’s a sequencing issue.  Hip turn reaches max rotation too early in the backswing and arms are late in accelerating in transition .

 

Left arm and hands are too close to the body from P5-P6

 

The changes needed are subtle, which is more difficult to pin down feel wise.  
 

If your hip turn started later, your arms swing was a bit shorter and you allowed your left arm to accelerate earlier, you’d be forced to open up more.

To paraphrase a bit but; this guy is good!

 

WoW... exactly what I’m trying to ingrain - a ‘hands down’ faster version of the Rose drill... by either shortening the distance they have to reach back to sync up and/or having them reconnecting faster (and better overall speed)

 

A face on view would show a bit too much of a slide - because the thought is to delay opening in transition (to try and ‘cover the ball’ & pivot through!)... but the lead hip keeps drifting in that meantime (and definitely not helping the pivot)... practice thought is on ‘recentering’ earlier / max lead pressure forward-left by P5 at the latest!

 

These are definitely two things that I don’t have to worry about with 9-3 drills (and/or slow motion full swings)... which explains it a lot

 

Just to be clear on the lead arm / hands too close to the body at P5-P6 (especially P6); this is a result of the earlier faults mentioned above - and not something I should try do consciously ‘to swing them out’ right?... they’ll get further just by better sequencing / sync up - and allow a better pivot

 

Interesting catch on the hip turn in the backswing - I’m starting its pushback consciously right off the bat to kill the swaying possibilities - but it causes a disconnection with ripple effects it seems... I’ll try and work on that - also haha

 

Thanks again - very helpful... I know it’s a long journey but it’ll pay off in the long run!

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8 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

I’m interested to see what the more knowledgeable say. Can’t see much other than if you stopped your arm swing a fraction sooner your arms would be more in front of you and it would be easier to “turn the corner”

Agreed - and mentioned by others also (basically having them reconnect earlier); good catch

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13 minutes ago, glk said:

Bend over more, bend knees less. Hip center behind ankles and armpits/ hands too close to body.     Have ee which gets everything closer to ball but as monte noted the sequence is off - your arms are around p5.5 when knees get square and this should happen by p5. So between setup and ee you aren’t giving your arms much space thru Impact.   Soon as right hip comes out your pelvis moves toward ball and you back chest away to make room so you extend right arm early to get to ball and don’t right side bend until after impact.   
 

this can help for setup.   
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

Great explanation - and I agree completely... just to be clear; is EE a result of the incorrect sequence earlier (arms not accelerating down fast enough to reconnect) - or it’s a problem on it’s own? (trying to consciously pushback the lead hip without the trail hip firing in)...

 

I’ll definitely work on that setup/posture as you mention (been practicing the Bobby Jones drill; as close as possible to the ball and it surely trickles down) - better clean that up

 

You’re right also on EE causing the ‘lost of angle’ and no right side bend ->running out of right arm... down the line release

 

Thanks for the reply and link - back to work; 1% better!

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Make 3/4 back and 1/2 thru swings.   Arms don't need to accelerate first foot of transition as much as they need to connect back to body,  it's only a dropping of sorts, then once it connects to body all systems go.  If the arms dropped and connected properly  just keep going from there and low/ left is nearly a given.

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Just now, MtlJayMan said:

Great explanation - and I agree completely... just to be clear; is EE a result of the incorrect sequence earlier (arms not accelerating down fast enough to reconnect) - or it’s a problem on it’s own? (trying to consciously pushback the lead hip without the trail hip firing in)...

 

I’ll definitely work on that setup/posture as you mention (been practicing the Bobby Jones drill; as close as possible to the ball and it surely trickles down) - better clean that up

 

You’re right also on EE causing the ‘lost of angle’ and no right side bend ->running out of right arm... down the line release

 

Thanks for the reply and link - back to work; 1% better!

I think the ee/setup is a separate issue but maybe a contributor to sequence.    I’ve found that being “in synch” going back is just as important as in downswing - so a hip turn that leads the ribcage/arms can lead to issues in transition.   I like drills that work an in synch backswing - small range bucket or ball between upper arms is a good one, or putting butt of club into your stomach, grip down, and make backswings.
 

 I know that I have to check setup regularly cause my past had a too upright setup - when I get my armpits more out to my toes and my hands just past it makes a big difference in my ability to rotate and make room.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

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4 minutes ago, golfsticks said:

Make 3/4 back and 1/2 thru swings.   Arms don't need to accelerate first foot of transition as much as they need to connect back to body,  it's only a dropping of sorts, then once it connects to body all systems go.  If the arms dropped and connected properly  just keep going from there and low/ left is nearly a given.

Thanks for the reply - we have a consensus on the reconnecting the arms to the body

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4 minutes ago, glk said:

I think the ee/setup is a separate issue but maybe a contributor to sequence.    I’ve found that being “in synch” going back is just as important as in downswing - so a hip turn that leads the ribcage/arms can lead to issues in transition.   I like drills that work an in synch backswing - small range bucket or ball between upper arms is a good one, or putting butt of club into your stomach, grip down, and make backswings.
 

 I know that I have to check setup regularly cause my past had a too upright setup - when I get my armpits more out to my toes and my hands just past it makes a big difference in my ability to rotate and make room.

Yes I’ve seen those drills that you posted; with the butt end of the club in the stomach... for a better backswing sequence... surely has a lot of ripple effects (that and setup)... I’ll work on cleaning that up; to help with EE and sequencing later on

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  • 2 weeks later...

Following the great advices here – been working the last few weeks on:

·         cleaning setup;

·         takeaway – going for a more connected initial sequence (still need to focus on this as lead forearm rotation starts too soon, disconnect with trail hip rotation -> arms lift from P2.5 / P3 on, not enough depth, laid off)

·         transition – thoughts on zipper away to try and fight EE + fast arms Rose drill -> hoping for more rooms for the arms with internal trail shoulder & trail wrist extension in order to pivot through (but with combination of zipper away + arms acceleration, feel is way closed and 'sliding'; I definitely can’t get knees squared with arms by P5 still – only P5.5ish)

 

You can see that there are some sequencing issues / syncing up cause I can’t pivot through (low and left) still – and exhibit the ‘spiderman’ follow-through (lead wrist extended as soon as it reappears) coming from the flip / DTL release and can’t post up in an umbrella finish to save my life (unless it’s a slow motion or 9-3 swing)… FO view also to see tilt and how it’s too much of a lead shoulder posting up and not enough 'around the corner'…

 

Any other glaring deficiencies or still working on the same issues initially mentioned here?

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At setup your right hand is lower than your left hand CORRECTLY resulting in your shoulders slightly tilting away from the target, but your spine is vertical as indicated by the position of your head and sternum .

So FIRST you need to SLIGHTLY  tilt your spine ( and head ) away from the target at setup.

Going back you sway load resulting in loading high on your right hip , instead of loading correctly into your right foot.This sway results in a small reverse pivot at the top( spine tilting slightly towards the target ).While many top golfers do have an initial lateral movement at the hips, this lateral move is small  and is complete very early in the backswing. By the time they have reached the top, there is a noticeable space between the outside of the right hip and its position at setup.You do NOT achieve a similar position.

Please refer to the two stills of Adam Scott at 7:30 and 9:00 and compare these to your positions.

 

So SECOND you need to  minimize any swaying going back and just rotate .

 

The best ball strikers start their transition via rotation of the left hip. Because left hip rotation will AlWAYS  result in rotation of the left knee, the marker for left hip rotation is left knee rotation.Your swing does NOT show this movement in transition.

Instead  you start your transition via a significant slide of your pelvis with the distance between your knees actually narrowing a little with no noticeable rotation of the lead knee.

So THIRD you need to initiate your transition via LEFT hip rotation not via a pelvic slide .  It would behoove you to study the left hip rotation that George Gankas teaches.A still is included below. He describes this initial move very well in his youtube video

”George Gankas downswing formula golf swing tips.

 

Swinging left is ALWAYS a result , NOT a goal per se. it results from the upper arms being connected to the torso at impact with your torso turning left

 

F2B536C0-6C59-49E9-9EB5-151BC3C8C388.jpeg

58E278E3-D584-41E0-A60B-65EEEBB25EB9.jpeg

1CDAA49C-3C4B-4A14-9490-23020BEDA1A1.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

Maybe a different story in the boots, but no way I could take a legit swing standing on a slick concrete floor with tennis shoes.      

Understood - and I'm wondering at times if it plays a part; definitely can't 'feel' the ground forces reactions when practising there

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6 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Understood - and I'm wondering at times if it plays a part; definitely can't 'feel' the ground forces reactions when practising there

 

I think it does show that you don't utilize the ground in your swing.  I know I certainly didn't for a very long time.  It completely changed how I viewed and understood the swing, especially transition move.  Really hit home for me after watching tour players at the range and seeing the indents in the ground from their feet.    

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12 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Going back you sway load resulting in loading high on your right hip , instead of loading correctly into your right foot.This sway results [...] this lateral move is small and is complete very early in the backswing. By the time they have reached the top, there is a noticeable space between the outside of the right hip and its position at setup.

 

So SECOND you need to  minimize any swaying going back and just rotate .

 

The best ball strikers start their transition via rotation of the left hip. Because left hip rotation will AlWAYS  result in rotation of the left knee, the marker for left hip rotation is left knee rotation.Your swing does NOT show this movement in transition.

Instead  you start your transition via a significant slide of your pelvis with the distance between your knees actually narrowing a little with no noticeable rotation of the lead knee.

So THIRD you need to initiate your transition via LEFT hip rotation not via a pelvic slide .  It would behoove you to study the left hip rotation that George Gankas teaches.A still is included below. He describes this initial move very well in his youtube video

”George Gankas downswing formula golf swing tips.

 

Swinging left is ALWAYS a result , NOT a goal per se. it results from the upper arms being connected to the torso at impact with your torso turning left

 

 

5 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I think it does show that you don't utilize the ground in your swing.  I know I certainly didn't for a very long time.  It completely changed how I viewed and understood the swing, especially transition move.  Really hit home for me after watching tour players at the range and seeing the indents in the ground from their feet.    

Very good observations the sway/silde comment (always trying to get these under control and find it difficult when practising with thoughts of 'zipper away') coming from not loading into the right foot in takeaway and excessive pelvic slide (and not rotation) in transition... + the comment about not utilizing the ground correctly... go hand in hand in my mind; and definitely something to focus on (rather than too much on body+arms+hands positions and clubhead momentum)... thanks!

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Your shaft getting to parallel at the top doesn't look like it fits your swing...

 

Looks like you should stop short of parallel and you're over doing it..... meaning you are loosing control of the club at the top

 

If your lookin for a little extra power by letting your wrists or hands go or whatever is doing it, I would reign them in cause you don't need it for power and you'll gain a lot more control over the club and accuracy.

 

 

But what do I know I'm not an instructor just a golf bum with a toothpick in my mouth

Edited by Barfolomew

Can't figure how to like my own posts

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6 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

Your shaft getting to parallel at the top doesn't look like it fits your swing...

 

Looks like you should stop short of parallel and you're over doing it..... meaning you are loosing control of the club at the top

 

If your lookin for a little extra power by letting your wrists or hands go or whatever is doing it, I would reign them in cause you don't need it for power and you'll gain a lot more control over the club and accuracy.

Interesting... so in essence a shorter backswing in order to stay connected and have a better sequence; transition / pivot / release

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  • 1 month later...

Been working on that sway loading and pelvic slide in transition – that’s a hard ingrained motion that I’m trying to get rid off and definitely can’t say I’ve mastered it (or even improved?) – that causes the wonderful stall/flip pattern; can’t pivot properly…

 

Still working on takeaway in order to slow down trail hip and everything to be in sync reaching the top – probably need to lessen the lead forearm rotation right off the bat (but find it difficult with a strong lead hand grip) to exhibit a more steep-shallow pattern (right now relatively low hands, not much of trail side extension at the top, with a long backswing)…

 

Any of this causing the lead hip to dip in reaching the top? Or is it only related to sway loading/pelvic slide forward (too much weight transfer on lead foot/toes)?... you guessed it, EE by P5ish…

 

Thoughts / feels are :

·         Trigger: trail hip going back and not right by pressing on instep of trail foot…

·         Reaching the top / transition: pressing in lead toes to get pressure rolling along the outside of lead foot all the way through the heel… (more pressure, less weight!)

 

Something is definitely wrong in that early sequence – cause I definitely can’t get the lead knee rotation marker and the trail one is diving in…

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4 hours ago, AndersUK said:

You will have no problem saving yours or anyone else's life with that pivot. Get in-person lessons from a respected coach to fine tune what is already a very solid swing.

First off; thanks!... always grinding to try and lessen the 'flip-save' at the bottom with a powerful body pivot... but can't seem to find a repeatable feel/trigger to do so; or root issues that can't make it happen

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  • 1 month later...

Swing from yesterday… not the best camera angle, but I wasn’t aware of being filmed (might help not trying to attain positions!) …  always working on pivot / and less of a sway-slide causing a minor EE compensation and a stall flip release…

 

Thoughts are on GRF going back and loading ‘in’ the right hip (to create space as mentioned by @golfarb1 in the Adam Scott images in this thread) and GRF in transition to try and have the left knee / hip rotate + pushback and not a pelvic slide…

 

Anything you guys see that would help?

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the left side pushback is the result of the turn and not something you force. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

You should be playing and not worrying about perfecting your swing to some arbitrary standards. There are lots of guys on tour who play with what works for them, Scotty Scheffler comes to mind. 

Understood - just trying to pick the brains out of the great players/instructors we have here to see if they spot something glaring

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Practice in the same shoes you play.  You are way upright in those boots, just saying.....   You would be fitted for different irons if you wore those.  

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      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
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