It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

 We should look at specific events that both worked against our favorite players candidates and that caused an emotional reaction and immediately move to changing to the rules.  

 

Fixed it for you. 

[Ferguson]

 

10 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Fixed it for you. 

 

[brooky333]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

No it's not that simple.

Why whats your take on it?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

3 minutes ago, brooky333 said:

Why whats your take on it?

I'm against a rule for divot relief but if you had to make one then you can't say, "...you can role it out of the divot..."  It's simply impossible to have a definitive and consistent judgement and this would be abused.   Also there already is a rule that allows a Committee to enact Lift Clean Place which would accommodate divot relief.   However if that isn't good enough then you'd have to allow a player to move their ball a small amount anytime it's in the fairway.   Or lastly another way to write a new rule is allow a player to move their ball in the fairway a small amount once per round for any reason they want.   All of those options I mention remove individual judgement, because judgement would inevitably lead to abuse and controversy. 

 

 

[jdl]

Give 'em a mulli and breakfast ball, too.

 

Not to mention that Westwood's result seemed like the outlier to me. 99% of the time the announcers are bemoaning the terrible luck of having to hit out of a divot, the next shot is within 10' of the flag.

Edited March 10, 2021 by jdl

[J_Tizzle]

The easiest way to fix all of it is a ball in the fairway should play preferred lies.  All the time.  

 

You can decide when a ball is on the green or in bounds, you can assess when a ball is in the fairway, preferred lies, within 1ft of where the ball lies.  

[North Texas]

8 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I'm against a rule for divot relief but if you had to make one then you can't say, "...you can role it out of the divot..."  It's simply impossible to have a definitive and consistent judgement and this would be abused.   Also there already is a rule that allows a Committee to enact Lift Clean Place which would accommodate divot relief.   However if that isn't good enough then you'd have to allow a player to move their ball a small amount anytime it's in the fairway.   Or lastly another way to write a new rule is allow a player to move their ball in the fairway a small amount once per round for any reason they want.   All of those options I mention remove individual judgement, because judgement would inevitably lead to abuse and controversy. 

 

 

 

Exactly. As I said before, all "divots" are not created equal. And not all interpretations of what constitutes a divot are the same.

 

It would be next to impossible to write a truly fair and equitable rule regarding relief from divots. 

[Shilgy]

53 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

Exactly. As I said before, all "divots" are not created equal. And not all interpretations of what constitutes a divot are the same.

 

It would be next to impossible to write a truly fair and equitable rule regarding relief from divots. 

Exactly, folks are thinking solely of the divot that was freshly created and not filled or replaced. Over a few days it begins to grow back with a few shoots of grass showing. Is it still a divot? A few more days go by and there is a bit more grass. Is now the time to no longer call it a divot hole? Some groups would say yes and some no. How could that work in a competition?

 

Be a good custodian of the course and fill or replace divots as determined by your course superintendent. 
 

And learn to play from less than perfect lies!

[deadsolid...shank]

I’m definitely against any divot “relief” rule. But, like in that other thread asking how you would write it if one were being made. 
 

Something along the lines of in a depression with no grass, that has not be sand filled, and has the ball sitting with at least half of it below the surface of the ground. 
 

Im sure I’m missing a bunch of stuff, but this might at least allow for relief from the worst type divots or ones where no attempt was made to repair it. I just don’t believe a ball sitting on top of the sand in a filled divot needs any relief. 
 

Again, I don’t want any change. Just trying to think of something that might be at least reasonable. Let the flaming begin!😀

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I’m definitely against any divot “relief” rule. But, like in that other thread asking how you would write it if one were being made. 
 

Something along the lines of in a depression with no grass, that has not be sand filled, and has the ball sitting with at least half of it below the surface of the ground. 
 

Im sure I’m missing a bunch of stuff, but this might at least allow for relief from the worst type divots or ones where no attempt was made to repair it. I just don’t believe a ball sitting on top of the sand in a filled divot needs any relief. 
 

Again, I don’t want any change. Just trying to think of something that might be at least reasonable. Let the flaming begin!😀

Wouldn’t we have the same problem as any other divot hole definition? You think it’s over half the ball deep in the depression and another says it’s barely over a third? How would you measure that? Who determines exactly where ground level is?

[deadsolid...shank]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Wouldn’t we have the same problem as any other divot hole definition? You think it’s over half the ball deep in the depression and another says it’s barely over a third? How would you measure that? Who determines exactly where ground level is?

 

Black Diamond Par5 got me thinking about how you could phrase a rule and make it work. So I thought I’d see what I could come up with. I figured the depth issue might bring in another judgment issue which is really the crux of the problem.  Just another example of why it’s so difficult to come up with something that works. Like most everyone has said, really the only way is ball in hand in every fairway. And that would be very bad. 

[Jay28]

There is no need to change the rules - sometimes you just get unlucky.

What's next - a rule to place the ball by the hole an inch away if you play a good shot and get unlucky with it hitting the pin and bouncing 50ft away?

I can't see anything good coming from trying to mitigate bad luck.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Jay28

[golfandfishing]

59 minutes ago, Jay28 said:

There is no need to change the rules - sometimes you just get unlucky.

What's next - a rule to place the ball by the hole an inch away if you play a good shot and get unlucky with it hitting the pin and bouncing 50ft away?

I can't see anything good coming from trying to mitigate bad luck.

Don’t be silly. The rule would be the shot that hit the flagstick counts as being holed. Place an inch away?  What are you a prison warden or something?  

[J_Tizzle]

1 hour ago, deadsolid...shank said:

 

Black Diamond Par5 got me thinking about how you could phrase a rule and make it work. So I thought I’d see what I could come up with. I figured the depth issue might bring in another judgment issue which is really the crux of the problem.  Just another example of why it’s so difficult to come up with something that works. Like most everyone has said, really the only way is ball in hand in every fairway. And that would be very bad. 

 

Just preferred lies in the fairway.  That will take away all the questions on if its a divot, if its below the ground by x amount etc.etc..  Its just straight forward.

[Soloman1]

If people filled/replaced divots as appropriate to the turf, there wouldn't be a problem, would there?

 

Occam's Razor.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

1 hour ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Just preferred lies in the fairway.  That will take away all the questions on if its a divot, if its below the ground by x amount etc.etc..  Its just straight forward.

Yup and the tournament committee can enact LCP anytime it wants which automatically would include divots. You effectively have your own committee when you and your buddies are competing. No new rules required. 

[golfandfishing]

1 hour ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Just preferred lies in the fairway.  That will take away all the questions on if its a divot, if its below the ground by x amount etc.etc..  Its just straight forward.

I think I’d rather just play from the divot to be honest. I wouldn’t feel right about moving a ball out of a divot, just like if I blow one out into the desert and have a clean lie and clear swing I don’t move it under a cactus or thorn bush. 

[bladehunter]

Learning to hit that shot isn’t alll that hard. I’d argue that anyone who says it is should literally practice hitting full shots from the sand until  they learn to actually hit ball first.  The reason we hear so much moaning on this , is that so many rely on today far soled iron to glide into the ball , and a divot interferes with this fat strike.  

[J_Tizzle]

17 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

I think I’d rather just play from the divot to be honest. I wouldn’t feel right about moving a ball out of a divot, just like if I blow one out into the desert and have a clean lie and clear swing I don’t move it under a cactus or thorn bush. 

 

I mean I don't honestly have an issue with playing out of them either.  I know my high school golf coach made us play it down in the spring as soon as you made the team and it gave us a huge advantage over the other teams.

 

Just in the spirit of the thread, I'll say though, if you hit it where you're supposed to (fairway) you could/should have a quality lie.  If you hit it into the desert thats like hitting it in the trees or native areas etc..  The rules allow you to put the ball in your hands when appropriate (lifting it on the green) where the green is defined in the rules, so you can define the fairway as well (if they wanted to).

 

I just think IF they were to make a rule regarding divots, this is the only way you can enact it on a tournament/PGA level, becuse like lots of other people have said, defining "divots" is pretty impossible.  For my normal weekend rounds, we just agree on our rules before the first tee usually (up/down, free rock/root relief, breakfast ball if the range is closed) and go.

Edited March 11, 2021 by J_Tizzle

[golfandfishing]

“though, if you hit it where you're supposed to (fairway) you could/should have a quality lie.  ”

so what if I am going for a par 5 in two and I hit a fat toe ball that ends up in the fairway in a divot. Can I still move this?  It’s not where I was supposed to hit it. 
 

If a player pipes a drive and it hits a hard spot in the fairway and rolls into the rough - should a player be able to move it out of the divot in that case? He hit it where was supposed to. 

[airjammer]

16 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

“though, if you hit it where you're supposed to (fairway) you could/should have a quality lie.  ”

so what if I am going for a par 5 in two and I hit a fat toe ball that ends up in the fairway in a divot. Can I still move this?  It’s not where I was supposed to hit it. 
 

If a player pipes a drive and it hits a hard spot in the fairway and rolls into the rough - should a player be able to move it out of the divot in that case? He hit it where was supposed to. 

In the 1st scenario yes..it doesn’t matter whether it’s your 2nd shot or 15th..fairway is fairway

 

2nd scenario..nope that’s not where it lies. 

The changing of the rule would just make greens and fairway symmetrical as far as the rules go. The designer intended it to be a preferred area on the hole it should get preferred treatment just like a green🤷🏼‍♂️ 
 

If it was originally in the rules this way..would you all purists try to change it? No, I don’t think you all could make a case for that but go ahead and try. 

 

[J_Tizzle]

59 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

“though, if you hit it where you're supposed to (fairway) you could/should have a quality lie.  ”

so what if I am going for a par 5 in two and I hit a fat toe ball that ends up in the fairway in a divot. Can I still move this?  It’s not where I was supposed to hit it. 
 

If a player pipes a drive and it hits a hard spot in the fairway and rolls into the rough - should a player be able to move it out of the divot in that case? He hit it where was supposed to. 

 

Yes...  I mean you fat a shot and it hits the green, you can still mark and clean it etc...

 

Pretty pedantic comments...

[tungstenplug]

If you don't want to take the chance of ending up in a fairway divot, don't hit your ball in the fairway. See how well you can score from the rough or the sand or the water or the trees. Being in the fairway gives you the best chance to score well, even with a bad lie once in every hundred rounds

Edited March 12, 2021 by tungstenplug

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

“though, if you hit it where you're supposed to (fairway) you could/should have a quality lie.  ”

so what if I am going for a par 5 in two and I hit a fat toe ball that ends up in the fairway in a divot. Can I still move this?  It’s not where I was supposed to hit it. 
 

If a player pipes a drive and it hits a hard spot in the fairway and rolls into the rough - should a player be able to move it out of the divot in that case? He hit it where was supposed to. 

Agree.  Sometimes you’re “ supposed “ to hit it in the rough.  Or a front bunker.  It’s the percentage play . Can I have ball in hand then ?  Fairways hit is just not as difficult as people make out. There isn’t a reward for being there. And shouldn’t be. The ONLY reward is in the cup 

 

as far as pedantic ?   Come on.  Nobody is insulting anyone here. If this discussion insults you , divots aren’t the issue.   If by that you mean insistent on doing things correctly - I take that as a compliment.  

Edited March 11, 2021 by bladehunter

[J_Tizzle]

14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree.  Sometimes you’re “ supposed “ to hit it in the rough.  Or a front bunker.  It’s the percentage play . Can I have ball in hand then ?  Fairways hit is just not as difficult as people make out. There isn’t a reward for being there. And shouldn’t be. The ONLY reward is in the cup 

 

as far as pedantic ?   Come on.  Nobody is insulting anyone here. If this discussion insults you , divots aren’t the issue.   If by that you mean insistent on doing things correctly - I take that as a compliment.  

 

No insult meant by the wording, just an appropriate word to describe the scenario.

 

I am in NO WAY pro ball in hand, I'm just replying to the thread purpose itself.  If people are saying they should get relief from the divot, I'm saying there is no way to properly implement the ruling on a consistent basis, therefore, the only way to do it would be ball in hand in the fairway.

 

As for the comments regarding "supposed" to hit the ball in the rough, I'm talking your basic golf statistics, they don't count "hit it in the rough when its a good idea" or "hit it in the bunker because of xyz".  You play fairways and greens in golf, we all know this, to try to say that the rough is a better play than the fairway (equidistant from the hole of course, don't want to bring in Bryson's bomb and gouge technique), is just an attempt to stir the pot.  I've never met someone that said "damn I hit that in the fairway, I was aiming for the rough" or "damn, I was aiming for that bunker not the green".  So if you're aiming for a bunker rather than the green, I'd say your golf game has more issues than a ball in the fairway in a divot.

[DFS PFD]

Shot 1 off tee box on par 4/5 ball lands in designated fairway, player should be allowed relief from grounds under repair which in my pea sized brain should include divots. That's how I think they should try to rewrite the rule so it may be interpreted this way. 

[golfandfishing]

27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree.  Sometimes you’re “ supposed “ to hit it in the rough.  Or a front bunker.  It’s the percentage play . Can I have ball in hand then ?  Fairways hit is just not as difficult as people make out. There isn’t a reward for being there. And shouldn’t be. The ONLY reward is in the cup 

 

as far as pedantic ?   Come on.  Nobody is insulting anyone here. If this discussion insults you , divots aren’t the issue.   If by that you mean insistent on doing things correctly - I take that as a compliment.  

I guess it’s just a barrier I’m unwilling to break. There are some decent pints in the thread in that at the rules have evolved to allow drops from GUR and other conditions, marking and cleaning on the green, etc.  I think my two main sticking pints are 1)we bring this up every time a tour player is in a divot and the last group of people that need more relief is those guys and 2) I like seeing and also the need to possess the skill required to play from different lies. 
 

I get the feeling I tee’d off that other fellow somehow, he has some reasonable points though, not off the planet like some others. In the end it boils down to how anyone and their group wants to play, very few of our rounds require the card to be signed and attested. 

[geesecougar2]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:34 AM, cav5 said:

I watched a club championship final at a local club a few years back. Went 37 holes. Last hole is a 450 par 4. Both players hit good 270yd drives in the fairway. Player A hits the green. Player B had to take an unplayable because his ball was in a half folded over hack trench. 3 options, injury, shank OB, or unplayable . Brutal way to lose.

 

That sucks. Did Player A offer relief to Player B? Or was it out of their hands? 

[GSDriver]

OR you can just learn how to hit out of them.

 

My playing partners drove over my ball intentionally thinking I wouldn't notice...ball was embedded perhaps 20% or maybe 25%....just to eff with them I played it pretending not to notice they drove over it....stuffed to 8 feet.

 

Just takes a little knowledge on how to get out of awful lies, which is a skill and part of the game.

[bladehunter]

51 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

No insult meant by the wording, just an appropriate word to describe the scenario.

 

I am in NO WAY pro ball in hand, I'm just replying to the thread purpose itself.  If people are saying they should get relief from the divot, I'm saying there is no way to properly implement the ruling on a consistent basis, therefore, the only way to do it would be ball in hand in the fairway.

 

As for the comments regarding "supposed" to hit the ball in the rough, I'm talking your basic golf statistics, they don't count "hit it in the rough when its a good idea" or "hit it in the bunker because of xyz".  You play fairways and greens in golf, we all know this, to try to say that the rough is a better play than the fairway (equidistant from the hole of course, don't want to bring in Bryson's bomb and gouge technique), is just an attempt to stir the pot.  I've never met someone that said "damn I hit that in the fairway, I was aiming for the rough" or "damn, I was aiming for that bunker not the green".  So if you're aiming for a bunker rather than the green, I'd say your golf game has more issues than a ball in the fairway in a divot.

Lol.   I’m pretty confident in my game.  Take Bryson for instance.  Say he’s driving over that lake , and there’s bunkers front.  If I’m him in aiming with intent of hitting the trap. Why ?   That shot will never hold that green in one million tries.  But the percentage of up and down from that trap will be better than the over the back ( right side ) for a skilled player.  
 

it’s not me who is thinking wrong.  It those who think that a fairway hit makes them deserving of a ball in hand lie.  It does not. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by bladehunter