Why don’t more people play component golf clubs?

[deepred]

I think the total sales of left hand equipment is so small it it s difficult to commit the money for tooling. I’m sure if the market was there, the companies would meet it. 

 

[deepred]

I live in the DC suburbs with dozens of high end golf clubs and public courses and it is rare more than one club manufacturer at a time will do a demo day anywhere with in a a two hour drive. So if I want to test Ping irons and Callaway it could be a year in between tests.

 

[lefthack]

10 minutes ago, deepred said:

I think the total sales of left hand equipment is so small it it s difficult to commit the money for tooling. I’m sure if the market was there, the companies would meet it. 

 

 

Talking to Nick Byrd at Byrdie Golf Design is exactly that. He is doing a run of 15 lefties (I think he did 200+ Rh) to see, he knows one is mine. 

 

For me it's a win/win. I get to support a local shop that wants to support folks who play left, and I get a sweet set of forged irons that might be wicked limited edition. Or they could be the start of something cool. They look great, see how they play. 

[cristphoto]

1 hour ago, deepred said:

I live in the DC suburbs with dozens of high end golf clubs and public courses and it is rare more than one club manufacturer at a time will do a demo day anywhere with in a a two hour drive. So if I want to test Ping irons and Callaway it could be a year in between tests.

 

 

We've had Titleist and Callaway demos so far this year.  Taylor Made is coming too but no date announced yet.  Usually you can locate a demo day by going to the companies web site or simply calling them direct.  Of course considering virus issues schedules might be adjusted or cancelled - unfortunate signs of the times.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by cristphoto

[Cwebb]

On 3/11/2021 at 5:50 PM, mgoblue83 said:

 

All I want is a forged MB with minimal stamping and zero offset.

 

They can't be expensive to make as it doesn't get any simpler and any component company that offered them for $50~ a head would make an easy profit.

 

Nobody makes it. For some reason even MB's made by companies like Miura and National Custom Works for thousands of dollars have very noticeable offset.

 

I can appreciate your preference, but it would not be profitable for a small company.  The demand for a left hand zero offset blade would be tiny.  Even more so from a small company.  

[Bad9]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:50 PM, mgoblue83 said:

 

All I want is a forged MB with minimal stamping and zero offset.

 

They can't be expensive to make as it doesn't get any simpler and any component company that offered them for $50~ a head would make an easy profit.

 

Nobody makes it. For some reason even MB's made by companies like Miura and National Custom Works for thousands of dollars have very noticeable offset.

 

You should do a search here for Tom Wishon's posts on forging die tooling costs, its far, far from cheap. In no way would selling them for $50 per head for a very, very limited market make anyone an easy profit. They'd lose their shirt.

[lefthack]

33 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

 

You should do a search here for Tom Wishon's posts on forging die tooling costs, its far, far from cheap. In no way would selling them for $50 per head for a very, very limited market make anyone an easy profit. They'd lose their shirt.

 

Yeah, they were saying the machining is easy, just mirror mode on the machine. It's getting the forging that gets spendy 

[Bad9]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:50 PM, mgoblue83 said:

 

All I want is a forged MB with minimal stamping and zero offset.

 

They can't be expensive to make as it doesn't get any simpler and any component company that offered them for $50~ a head would make an easy profit.

 

Nobody makes it. For some reason even MB's made by companies like Miura and National Custom Works for thousands of dollars have very noticeable offset.

 

From a Tom Wishon post on Golfwrx back in 2011

 

"Tooling die costs are not insignificant - for a set of forged irons, the forging dies required to make an iron model run $5K per head number at minimum. For drivers, it runs in the area of $3K per head model/loft. During my 26 yrs in clubhead design, I've never seen a left hand clubhead model sell more than 8% of the total units it will in the RH version. In the US, 6% of all golfers are left handed, in Canada it is 15%, but the blended average ends up being 8% in terms of actual units. So when you are a smaller specialty company as we are, tragically we have to look at that 8% number and do the math to determine if it could possibly be viable to do the left hand tooling in a model. "

 

That gets you to at least $40k for an 8 head set in 2011, just for the forging dies. Add in all the other costs of production and the payback for a very specific set for what is probably the smallest part of the golf club market(left handed, low offset, forged blades) is not even close to meeting the production costs much less other business costs and profit.

 

Link to the thread  https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/679424-new-wishon-forged-players-irons/page/2/

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bad9

[lefthack]

And this is why I chose to support BGD. It's a tough market in general, even tougher for 8%, ouch.

Edited March 15, 2021 by lefthack

[chipa]

Regarding a return on an investment, I believe the costs involved but the reality is a mb blade with little offset has changed little in the last 50 years so there would be really no need to get new dies every year, maybe once every ten years.

 

I think trying to compete with the big companies with their varied and every changing equipment lines caused Golfsmith to go by the wayside. Just look at the  number of iron styles they had available back in 2004 or so.

 

[mgoblue83]

14 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

I can appreciate your preference, but it would not be profitable for a small company.  The demand for a left hand zero offset blade would be tiny.  Even more so from a small company.  

 

Right handed... You must have mixed up another guy in the thread who wanted left handed.

 

I just wanted a zero offset right handed forged blade with minimal stamping. 

[mgoblue83]

12 hours ago, Bad9 said:

 

From a Tom Wishon post on Golfwrx back in 2011

 

"Tooling die costs are not insignificant - for a set of forged irons, the forging dies required to make an iron model run $5K per head number at minimum. For drivers, it runs in the area of $3K per head model/loft. During my 26 yrs in clubhead design, I've never seen a left hand clubhead model sell more than 8% of the total units it will in the RH version. In the US, 6% of all golfers are left handed, in Canada it is 15%, but the blended average ends up being 8% in terms of actual units. So when you are a smaller specialty company as we are, tragically we have to look at that 8% number and do the math to determine if it could possibly be viable to do the left hand tooling in a model. "

 

That gets you to at least $40k for an 8 head set in 2011, just for the forging dies. Add in all the other costs of production and the payback for a very specific set for what is probably the smallest part of the golf club market(left handed, low offset, forged blades) is not even close to meeting the production costs much less other business costs and profit.

 

Link to the thread  https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/679424-new-wishon-forged-players-irons/page/2/

 

I wanted right handed clubs - you mixed up my post with another guy who wanted left handed.

 

I'm just saying that a zero offset blade could be made with the same forging die used in the 1960's. There has to be many of them available for cheaper than designing a brand new one it's just that for whatever reason every club has offset now.

[Bad9]

Just now, mgoblue83 said:

 

I wanted right handed clubs - you mixed up my post with another guy who wanted left handed.

 

I'm just saying that a zero offset blade could be made with the same forging die used in the 1960's. There has to be many of them available for cheaper than designing a brand new one it's just that for whatever reason every club has offset now.

I would imagine they wore out and were thrown away.

[NRJyzr]

10 minutes ago, chipa said:

Regarding a return on an investment, I believe the costs involved but the reality is a mb blade with little offset has changed little in the last 50 years so there would be really no need to get new dies every year, maybe once every ten years.

 

I think trying to compete with the big companies with their varied and every changing equipment lines caused Golfsmith to go by the wayside. Just look at the  number of iron styles they had available back in 2004 or so.

 

 

Forging dies do wear out, though.

 

[Jtgavigan]

I have been a component guy for years as I enjoy building my own stuff and custom fitting was not very prominent when I started building 19 years ago. I liked very stiff shafts, flat lie angles, blades, and stuff that most people didnt like. I was a pretty exclusive Snake Eyes guy. So disappointed that brand is gone, but I get it. 

 

Switched to Maltby. Bought a TS1 5 iron and after 1 shot,  I knew I would build the set to replace my Snake Eyes 675B blades. I have had a full Maltby bag for a time. However, I am starting to drift from that. 

 

I think Maltby irons are as good as anything on the market. I play with a lot of good players. Have had several hit my irons and not a complaint. 

 

I think their woods are just "meh." At best. I just haven't gotten along with any of them except the last model KE4 3 wood, but my delivery has changed over the years and I started spinning it off the planet. 

 

Going forward, my next set will likely be a used OEM set or maybe a DTC with a good demo program (i.e. New Level, and they sell components, Sub 70, Haywood). The reason for this is that there are less and less quality options for components, which makes it harder to justify. The Maltby stuff (irons, wedges) is really top notch, the New Level stuff looks awesome also. The rest of them, like Dynacraft, Acer, Monark, and anything else sold at Hireko, Diamond Tour, etc arent worth fooling with.

 

My last two purchases were a used SIM that I bought extra adapters for it and tried numerous shafts until I found one I liked. Total investment was maybe $500. Then, I won some money in a Saturday game and bought a G425 lst 3 wood after doing some fitting/testing with my pro. I reshafted it also with an x flex Xcaliber Avalon 6. $450 all in. 

 

Ultimately,  I feel like the best days of component brands is long, long gone.

[TNGolfer8]

5 hours ago, Jtgavigan said:

I have been a component guy for years as I enjoy building my own stuff and custom fitting was not very prominent when I started building 19 years ago. I liked very stiff shafts, flat lie angles, blades, and stuff that most people didnt like. I was a pretty exclusive Snake Eyes guy. So disappointed that brand is gone, but I get it. 

 

Switched to Maltby. Bought a TS1 5 iron and after 1 shot,  I knew I would build the set to replace my Snake Eyes 675B blades. I have had a full Maltby bag for a time. However, I am starting to drift from that. 

 

I think Maltby irons are as good as anything on the market. I play with a lot of good players. Have had several hit my irons and not a complaint. 

 

I think their woods are just "meh." At best. I just haven't gotten along with any of them except the last model KE4 3 wood, but my delivery has changed over the years and I started spinning it off the planet. 

 

Going forward, my next set will likely be a used OEM set or maybe a DTC with a good demo program (i.e. New Level, and they sell components, Sub 70, Haywood). The reason for this is that there are less and less quality options for components, which makes it harder to justify. The Maltby stuff (irons, wedges) is really top notch, the New Level stuff looks awesome also. The rest of them, like Dynacraft, Acer, Monark, and anything else sold at Hireko, Diamond Tour, etc arent worth fooling with.

 

My last two purchases were a used SIM that I bought extra adapters for it and tried numerous shafts until I found one I liked. Total investment was maybe $500. Then, I won some money in a Saturday game and bought a G425 lst 3 wood after doing some fitting/testing with my pro. I reshafted it also with an x flex Xcaliber Avalon 6. $450 all in. 

 

Ultimately,  I feel like the best days of component brands is long, long gone.

Just wanted to say I thought those Snake Eyes irons were some of the best I'd ever seen and hit. 

[Jtgavigan]

7 minutes ago, TNGolfer8 said:

Just wanted to say I thought those Snake Eyes irons were some of the best I'd ever seen and hit. 

I still have the 675b blade irons. I was playing them until about a year ago. I kind of wish I had kept my 600c's. 

[chipa]

I had some Snake Eyes irons when I started back playing golf a couple of years ago but I gave them away because I was away from the game for almost 10 years and couldn't hit them.

 

However, after trying various component irons, from GI to blades I eventually settled on some '99 DCI 990B cast blades based on reviews here on the forums and my desire to find an iron w/o so much toe weight like is found on most clubs today. 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

I was just gifted a set of component clubs - Ping Zing 2 clones, with Revelation-branded graphite shafts, and midsized Lamkin grips.  It'll be my first venture into graphite shafted irons, so I'm very interested in seeing what's up.

[lefthack]

57 minutes ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

I was just gifted a set of component clubs - Ping Zing 2 clones

 

I had S300 shafts in mine. Bought in '96 or '97 and donated to Goodwill last summer when I bought my "real" clubs. I still have the 2 iron.

[Fellaheen51]

16 hours ago, Jtgavigan said:

I have been a component guy for years as I enjoy building my own stuff and custom fitting was not very prominent when I started building 19 years ago. I liked very stiff shafts, flat lie angles, blades, and stuff that most people didnt like. I was a pretty exclusive Snake Eyes guy. So disappointed that brand is gone, but I get it. 

 

Switched to Maltby. Bought a TS1 5 iron and after 1 shot,  I knew I would build the set to replace my Snake Eyes 675B blades. I have had a full Maltby bag for a time. However, I am starting to drift from that. 

 

I think Maltby irons are as good as anything on the market. I play with a lot of good players. Have had several hit my irons and not a complaint. 

 

I think their woods are just "meh." At best. I just haven't gotten along with any of them except the last model KE4 3 wood, but my delivery has changed over the years and I started spinning it off the planet. 

 

Going forward, my next set will likely be a used OEM set or maybe a DTC with a good demo program (i.e. New Level, and they sell components, Sub 70, Haywood). The reason for this is that there are less and less quality options for components, which makes it harder to justify. The Maltby stuff (irons, wedges) is really top notch, the New Level stuff looks awesome also. The rest of them, like Dynacraft, Acer, Monark, and anything else sold at Hireko, Diamond Tour, etc arent worth fooling with.

 

My last two purchases were a used SIM that I bought extra adapters for it and tried numerous shafts until I found one I liked. Total investment was maybe $500. Then, I won some money in a Saturday game and bought a G425 lst 3 wood after doing some fitting/testing with my pro. I reshafted it also with an x flex Xcaliber Avalon 6. $450 all in. 

 

Ultimately,  I feel like the best days of component brands is long, long gone.

 

Your story is similar to mine.  Was a big fan of GS components, especially Snake Eyes.  Got into club building primarily as a means to save some $$.  And to take a DIY approach to the implements in the bag.  Would buy the prior year's heads on close out, and GS typically offered a % discount in January.  Real value could be realized.  Built a few sets for others as well.  Saving them some $$.  Especially ladies sets that were built to their specific requirements.  

 

Jeff Sheets designs.  Really high quality IMO.  Discovering them about the time of the first 600 series components.  Full SE's bag, from D to putter at one time.  Set of the forged 600XC's with matching wedges (shafted with OG Rifle 5.0) were extra nice.  Excellent players.  One of those sets that I regret selling for what amounted to chump change.  Still have several SE implements stashed away in inventory.  

 

Moved on to finding value in quality, used OEM clubs.  Although recently returned to my roots so to speak with Maltby TS1's and TSW wedges.  Really nice, equal to OEM.  Acquired because the design attributes were unique to what I was looking for (bladely looking irons with SGI characteristics).  Wasn't a value conscious decision.  Although the TSW wedges are fantastic given their price point.  

 

Yeah, the good old days of component heads. 

 

Edit add:  For those that don't know, this was JS's portfolio of designs for GS.

https://www.jeffsheetsgolf.com/snake-eyes---past-projects

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fellaheen51

[deepred]

Sheets is a good guy on top of being a first rate designer. He has never failed to answer an email asking about clubs. 

[Thayneil]

On 3/9/2021 at 4:13 AM, BIG STU said:

Remember first off most recreationla golfers outside of WRX and other forums are not as equipment savy as we are

 

Now the component market in any area depends on the strength and reputation of the fitter/ dealer. My friend was one of the top fitters ( IMHO ) on this beach. He sold and built Alpha , Infiniti , KZG and Wishon. He did real good. He retired and moved about 4 years ago now. Since then you hardly see any of those brands around.

 

`On the equipment savy thing my other Bud used to be the Miura dealer ( he also retired). We always had big groups to play. One time we went to a course and probably out of 20 players there were about 10 sets of various Miura irons. One of the bag drop guys told the other guy those were clone junk. I about died. I told him whiz kid get on your phone and look up Miura and see about them being clone junk. What was so bad those guys were students at one of our local PGM schools.

One of the bag drop guys

 

maybe thats why hes a bag drop guy.Ignorance

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, Thayneil said:

One of the bag drop guys

 

maybe thats why hes a bag drop guy.Ignorance

It is rampart down here especially with the Founders Group courses--- I had to quit using my older Hoofer on carts because the bag drop guys were crushing the living crap out of it. I have also seen cart guys put bags on and some of those bags the way they are designed and bend the crap out of someones putter.

 

Now the current course I am a member at ( thankfully not a Founders Group Course) both of the owners sons work the bag drop and they have been trained how to properly put a bag on a cart. And yes they know Miura clubs are not clones either.

[Pepperturbo]

On 3/8/2021 at 11:01 AM, lefthack said:

Sometimes off the rack just works.

 

Yep.  when I took up the game I bought Ping off the shelf.  Eight months later moved into Mizuno blades that were built to my needs.  In 2k MacGregor built custom grind blades for me.  Then in 2006, I bought Callaway's Original X-Forged off the rack, and didn't need them changed in any way.  I bought my 620 series MB and CB sets off the rack too, with only minor customizations.   I am just not the type player that would buy component clubs.

 

From what I've seen, it's still difficult for a Lefty to get what you want off the rack. 

[lefthack]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

From what I've seen, it's still difficult for a Lefty to get what you want off the rack. 

 

I'm lucky if there are any lefties on the rack to begin with.  🤣

[eht8266]

A tangential hypothetical question - would anyone in wrxland have found or played Srixons if they were branded as Dunlop / Slazenger and if they didn't have the pockets to find their way into top 20 tour bags?

 

 

[Billfitz]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:48 AM, chipa said:

I think trying to compete with the big companies with their varied and every changing equipment lines caused Golfsmith to go by the wayside.

IMO they lost their way when they made the shift from doing what they did well, selling their own line of clubs and club components, and went into the brick and mortar retail golf business. If they'd stayed with what they did best, like Maltby, they'd probably still be around.

[deepred]

5 hours ago, eht8266 said:

A tangential hypothetical question - would anyone in wrxland have found or played Srixons if they were branded as Dunlop / Slazenger and if they didn't have the pockets to find their way into top 20 tour bags?

 

 

Good question, without tour presence it’s tough to sell clubs.

 

[deepred]

I think the debt the new owners took on doomed Golfsmith. When the boom slowed they simply didn’t have the sales to cover it.