Tour is ever inching towards MLB circa '98

[bladehunter]

Just now, milesgiles said:

 

the only point i was making was about 'good' coaching, which clearly does not include nepotism😇

For sure.    It’s just rampant here.  So much so that you’d have a hard time not finding it to be true on every team.  People then start new teams to allow their kids to play.  Lol. And so on.  Good coaching has become a hard thing to find.  The good coaches are driven underground by the parents who are so easily offended.  

[golfortennis]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

For sure.    It’s just rampant here.  So much so that you’d have a hard time not finding it to be true on every team.  People then start new teams to allow their kids to play.  Lol. And so on.  Good coaching has become a hard thing to find.  The good coaches are driven underground by the parents who are so easily offended.  

 

Go look up the story of Zach Hyman of the Toronto Maple Leafs. His dad bought an entire *league* so that his kids could have every opportunity to make the NHL.  

[cwilk]

35 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

because every athlete would claim a soft tissue injury?

So require evidence (MRI/CT/etc.) to go along with the doctors note/scrip. 
 

And if banned substances are an issue, why is uneven biology okay? Specifically, say one pro had naturally low-testosterone and feels miserable all the time while another has a total-t level at the top of most lab ranges. One is naturally enhanced compared to the other.  
 

This exact issue happened to Scott Stallings. In his effort to feel better he still ended up with a suspension for taking something OTC that helped him feel better but happened to be on the banned substances list. 
 

The anti-no-matter-what crowd is saying that people shouldn’t get the best possible medical treatment because of their chosen career. Replace the idea of their career with some other identifier (race, religion, etc.) and see if you’d feel the same. 

[milesgiles]

2 minutes ago, cwilk said:

So require evidence (MRI/CT/etc.) to go along with the doctors note/scrip. 
 

And if banned substances are an issue, why is uneven biology okay? Specifically, say one pro had naturally low-testosterone and feels miserable all the time while another has a total-t level at the top of most lab ranges. One is naturally enhanced compared to the other.  
 

This exact issue happened to Scott Stallings. In his effort to feel better he still ended up with a suspension for taking something OTC that helped him feel better but happened to be on the banned substances list. 
 

The anti-no-matter-what crowd is saying that people shouldn’t get the best possible medical treatment because of their chosen career. Replace the idea of their career with some other identifier (race, religion, etc.) and see if you’d feel the same. 

 

complete non starter. Utterly impossible to administer fairly. Do soft tissue injuries even necessarily show up on x rays? Whats an acceptable degree of injury? 

 

Lifes not fair. Its not fair that I wasnt born into royalty. Most of us will never carry a driver 280 plus yards regardless of hard work and equipment. Boo hoo

[cwilk]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Because it can be abused and there’s then no recourse.  Guys would fake injuries just to get a scrip so they can then juice.  

I think you have a wildly inaccurate understanding of how growth hormone works. 
 

And to your other question, I want to see athletes perform to their best of their ability regardless of how they get there. PED’s don’t bother me in the slightest. 
 

People want to see the freaks, massive long drives, oddities, etc. If the viewers only cared about fairways and greens more would watch the LPGA, but the viewership doesn’t reflect that. 

[cwilk]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

complete non starter. Utterly impossible to administer fairly. Do soft tissue injuries even necessarily show up on x rays? Whats an acceptable degree of injury? 

 

Lifes not fair. Its not fair that I wasnt born into royalty. Most of us will never carry a driver 280 plus yards regardless of hard work and equipment. Boo hoo

I’m not saying it’s fair. If that’s your argument, then it shouldn’t bother you if players are taking PED’s. Your entire argument is based upon making the game fair by not allowing PED’s. 

[milesgiles]

2 minutes ago, cwilk said:

I’m not saying it’s fair. If that’s your argument, then it shouldn’t bother you if players are taking PED’s. Your entire argument is based upon making the game fair by not allowing PED’s. 

 

that wasnt my argument at all where did I say that?

 

There are clear health, legal, commercial implications to allowing PEDs. The TUE examples a few posts above me show why. Administering a system that allows drug use for injury or illness has been shown to be impractical and unworkable. 

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, cwilk said:

I think you have a wildly inaccurate understanding of how growth hormone works. 
 

And to your other question, I want to see athletes perform to their best of their ability regardless of how they get there. PED’s don’t bother me in the slightest. 
 

People want to see the freaks, massive long drives, oddities, etc. If the viewers only cared about fairways and greens more would watch the LPGA, but the viewership doesn’t reflect that. 

 

So, your cool with East German Olympic type ped programs?

 

You put sports in the hands of scientists and that’s what you’ll get.

 

No, best thing is to set rules and enforce them. It’s always a chase but no way I’m in favor of just letting ped use run wild. 

[Obee]

11 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

So, your cool with East German Olympic type ped programs?

 

You put sports in the hands of scientists and that’s what you’ll get.

 

No, best thing is to set rules and enforce them. It’s always a chase but no way I’m in favor of just letting ped use run wild. 

 

A-Phocking-Men.

[deadsolid...shank]

8 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

doesnt your cousin missing out prove my point?

 

wouldnt you rather his coach had worried less about winning and more about developing prospects?

If the coach is good, they are not mutually exclusive. A good coach wins (or at least remains competitive if his talent level is substantially lower) while developing his players. The two should go hand in hand. 

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, cwilk said:

I think you have a wildly inaccurate understanding of how growth hormone works. 
 

And to your other question, I want to see athletes perform to their best of their ability regardless of how they get there. PED’s don’t bother me in the slightest. 
 

People want to see the freaks, massive long drives, oddities, etc. If the viewers only cared about fairways and greens more would watch the LPGA, but the viewership doesn’t reflect that. 

I admit to have no first hand knowledge since I haven’t ever thought of cheating.  
 

please school us with yours.  I’m curious what I said that was inaccurate. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by bladehunter

[2bGood]

 

8 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Because it can be abused and there’s then no recourse.  Guys would fake injuries just to get a scrip so they can then juice.  

 PED to cure injuries is an interesting one. It the one medical intervention that is not cheered for (outside of Tommy John surgery)

[cwilk]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I admit to have no first hand knowledge since I haven’t ever thought of cheating.  
 

please school us with yours.  I’m curious what I said that was inaccurate. 

Growth hormone does almost nothing to enhance performance outside of possibly expediting the healing of an injury. It’s not what makes Mr. Olympia builders large, though it may assist in mitigating any injuries brought on by the heavy lifting made possible by large amounts of steroid hormones. 
 

My argument from the start was that not all chemicals considered PED’s actually enhance performance in any measurable way. I don’t consider healing an injury a performance enhancer. I think it should be medically necessary. The problem is the cost at around $1,000 a month from a pharmacy.  

I also take prescribed hormone replacement therapy like 10’s of thousands of other people (probably 100’s of thousands) and I still suck at golf. But I don’t feel terrible day to day like I did before starting the treatment. In other words, steroids don’t produce talent, skill, etc. Best case scenario is the hormones could help with muscle growth at the right dose and with the right cultivation, but the patient would still have to be really, really good at their sport to ever compete professionally. And there is no data confirming muscle does much in the realm of golf. It might help with the generation of speed, but there are more skinny guys swinging 120-130 mph than there are big guys. 

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, cwilk said:

Growth hormone does almost nothing to enhance performance outside of possibly expediting the healing of an injury. It’s not what makes Mr. Olympia builders large, though it may assist in mitigating any injuries brought on by the heavy lifting made possible by large amounts of steroid hormones. 
 

My argument from the start was that not all chemicals considered PED’s actually enhance performance in any measurable way. I don’t consider healing an injury a performance enhancer. I think it should be medically necessary. The problem is the cost at around $1,000 a month from a pharmacy.  

I also take prescribed hormone replacement therapy like 10’s of thousands of other people (probably 100’s of thousands) and I still suck at golf. But I don’t feel terrible day to day like I did before starting the treatment. In other words, steroids don’t produce talent, skill, etc. Best case scenario is the hormones could help with muscle growth at the right dose and with the right cultivation, but the patient would still have to be really, really good at their sport to ever compete professionally. And there is no data confirming muscle does much in the realm of golf. It might help with the generation of speed, but there are more skinny guys swinging 120-130 mph than there are big guys. 

 

wheres this study that shows hgh doesnt build muscle?

[cwilk]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

wheres this study that shows hgh doesnt build muscle?

Here is just one:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7864103/

 

Growth hormone can help a little when you are talking 20-30 IU’s a day, but nothing like 600 mg of testosterone a week would do. Most people taking GH aren’t taking more than a few IU’s a day because it’s incredibly expensive. That $1000 a month I mentioned earlier is for roughly 2 IU’s a day. 
 

Again, those vehemently against any use of PED in professional sports have proven themselves here to know almost nothing about these medications and how they work. 
 

There would be no East German-like issues because tour players are their own small business with their priorities coming first. They are not controlled by a nation’s politicians pushing for wins. A few might try to go big and would probably wash out because of all the harm that comes with it. There are reasons why top body builders have very short careers. Those that push the boundaries die young. 

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, cwilk said:

Here is just one:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7864103/

 

Growth hormone can help a little when you are talking 20-30 IU’s a day, but nothing like 600 mg of testosterone a week would do. Most people taking GH aren’t taking more than a few IU’s a day because it’s incredibly expensive. That $1000 a month I mentioned earlier is for roughly 2 IU’s a day. 
 

Again, those vehemently against any use of PED in professional sports have proven themselves here to know almost nothing about these medications and how they work. 
 

There would be no East German-like issues because tour players are their own small business with their priorities coming first. They are not controlled by a nation’s politicians pushing for wins. A few might try to go big and would probably wash out because of all the harm that comes with it. There are reasons why top body builders have very short careers. Those that push the boundaries die young. 

 

You should stop pontificating with your “know nothing comments”

 

Up to you.

 

You take hrt and have some background obviously, but it’s not like you’re any expert in ped use in sports. 

Are you?

 

You say there will be no East German like issues but you’re 100 percent wrong.

 

You are suggesting that there should be zero regulation on peds in sports.

 

Do that and you immediately have an entire industry born of legal administration of peds to athletes. These athletes have enormous resources. It would be a ped space race.

 

you may be fine with “a few might try to go big and would probably wash out because of all the harm that comes with it.”

 

But that’s completely socially irresponsible and I’m surprised you can’t see the widespread harm to health and sports by allowing unlimited use of peds.