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Jaime Diaz: "Thank you Bryson..."


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March 9 golf channel article by Diaz is in my opinion spot on.  Of all the good writers on golf out there, and good commentators, he usually stands out as the premier writer.  That he can speak in complete sentences on tv as well as having this precision writing skill sets him well apart from any golf media person.

 

The article--I think an important read--distinguishes between distance and power, gives serious high fives to Bryson but points out that golf needs control on distance as the "it" factor.  Again the power hitter who can keep it on the planet will always have an advantage but as Diaz says, do we want people hitting sand wedges or lob wedges into par 5s for their second shots.  From his (and I agree) perspective the game has changed the way baseball or football or baskeball would be viewed if only home runs were the majority of hits, if only dunks were the majority of scoring baskets or if only hail Mary's were the majority of touchdowns.  He digs up stats on the changes in those major sports to deaden/slow down and reduce the equipment and scoring--but none of those sports has the public participation and equipment sales as golf has so even though his examples are on the mark the public use and consumer markets add a twist.  Anyway, not sure how the change will come about but I am sure it will. 

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Bryson took a ballsy line imo.  He made it look easy, it is not.  I dislike all of the comments about distance and it making the game less skilled etc.  Its about getting the ball in the hole in the l

I have to wonder: is this a question about BDC's length, that he was bold enough to take a shortcut on a severely curved hole with said length, or said length took the thrill out of a hole that would

Real question.  slash statement.      last two rounds with Bryson on #6.  He drives it both times into spots where he can’t even hit the green in 2.  Really great lob shots over bunker at

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1 minute ago, Pepperturbo said:

But others listening, may not know it's Jaime responding.  I don't see why that would bother anyone. 

Well people watching TV have eyes, so...

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Just now, third-times-a-charm said:

Well people watching TV have eyes, so...

Can't tell you how often the TV is on in my office, but not watched.  That's the same with others I know.   Hell, even at home the TV is on in the LR, even on the patio, yet NOT being watched. 

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I understand the desire to make golf holes play more along the lines the designer intended them to play.  But golf is always going to find players that shatter that and it's not as easy as it looks.  Bryson has brilliantly navigated the pitfalls  that come with playing golf at that speed.  And if desingers really want to negate those long, but reckless drivers of the ball...it's not all that difficult.  You just got to take away the advantage players who hit the ball long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

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For such a data driven game, the article lacks a lot in the data category.  I found his point decent, but the article was long and repetitious...maybe he had a word count to fill.  It's one hole and it isn't like bryson blew it up or anything.  In fact he didn't even eagle it once.    

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Good piece, well structured.

 

This part i quote below is the essence. I’d say for now, Bryson is a total outlier. It’s like TW 1.0, the courses are scared. 
 

In the case of the TW era, it actually was the case he was a harbinger of massive distance gains,

 

BUT, those gains for the field came largely from tech.

 

In BDs/the current era, BD is so far ahead of his peers in his ability to swing so big and still stay in position. I don’t see even the guys closest to him catching up anytime soon, much less the field.

 

“Let’s consider the 555-yard sixth hole at Bay Hill, which over the weekend replaced the 13th hole at Augusta as the best microcosm for the distance debate. Yes, watching DeChambeau carry 330 yards of water and come within 100 yards of the green was great theater. Like anything of grand scale being done for the first time after once seeming impossible, it was a must-watch.

 

But let’s assume, not unreasonably, that DeChambeau won’t be the last to bite off that much or more, or that he’ll be the first of many. Is less than 100 yards left for a second shot into a par 5 what we really want the game to become? Is that good for the game? In my opinion, no more than if the majority of offensive possessions in the NBA ended with a dunk, or if the majority of hits in the MLB were home runs, or if most of the offensive plays in the NFL saw a quarterback dropping back and throwing a bomb for a touchdown.”

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/thank-you-bryson-dechambeau-shining-bright-light-golfs-distance-imbalance

 

 

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I have to wonder: is this a question about BDC's length, that he was bold enough to take a shortcut on a severely curved hole with said length, or said length took the thrill out of a hole that would typically raise the blood pressure of a field who generally fight hooks?

 

There are a good number of players that can drive it 310+ yards. BDC was just bold enough to try it -- twice -- and succeed on a really tight line.

 

It's a true skill that he can perform with such control. He shouldn't be punished for the work he put in to get there. And neither should be the pros, and neither should be us amateurs.

 

If anything, he sped up play.

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1 hour ago, clevited said:

Bryson took a ballsy line imo.  He made it look easy, it is not.  I dislike all of the comments about distance and it making the game less skilled etc.  Its about getting the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes, not playing the course as intended.  If you were at a putt putt course and had the skill to hit the ball up and over the windmill for an easy bird, that is a skill and shouldn't cause outrage just because you make it look easy.  These are the best of the best.  99.9% of the golfers in the world can't do what Bryson did or even if they had that distance, wouldn't try.

You are in favor of seeing the game fundamentally altered in the way it is played.  But Jaime points out that in other sports, tennis, basketball, baseball and football, the rules makers have changed the playing surface or the equipment to try to maintain certain desirable aspects of the game.

 

Jaime mentions that the distance that modern players can achieve had "de-skilled" the game, and that this greatest of games is not as good as it used to be.  You will disagree, but I agree wholeheartedly with Jaime.

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50 minutes ago, gvogel said:

You are in favor of seeing the game fundamentally altered in the way it is played.  But Jaime points out that in other sports, tennis, basketball, baseball and football, the rules makers have changed the playing surface or the equipment to try to maintain certain desirable aspects of the game.

 

Jaime mentions that the distance that modern players can achieve had "de-skilled" the game, and that this greatest of games is not as good as it used to be.  You will disagree, but I agree wholeheartedly with Jaime.

How is trying to score as low as possible fundamentally altering the game?  There is no sign next to the tee that says "do not hit over water or face dq" or something.  The beauty of golf is you can score as low as you can based on your skill set.  While the strategy of golf has someehat changed over time, skills have just moved around.  There is an extra premium on other skills compared to years past like putting, chipping and scrambling.  Its just evolution imo.

 

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55 minutes ago, gvogel said:

You are in favor of seeing the game fundamentally altered in the way it is played.  But Jaime points out that in other sports, tennis, basketball, baseball and football, the rules makers have changed the playing surface or the equipment to try to maintain certain desirable aspects of the game.

 

Jaime mentions that the distance that modern players can achieve had "de-skilled" the game, and that this greatest of games is not as good as it used to be.  You will disagree, but I agree wholeheartedly with Jaime.

You are comparing apples and pizza. Golf has always had wider parameters, as far as how it can be played - One man can take two long irons to reach a par 4, another can hit a drive and then be putting. That`s the beauty. Either way you choose you must execute.

 

I don`t think it is fair to say that the skill required to play golf the game has been lessened. It is played somewhat differently. Course maintenance and construction has more than held it`s own, as evidenced by last year`s US Open. And, the winner of the event played, in my opinion, a timeless, classic round of golf no matter what clubs were in his bag or whatever ball was on the tee. 

 

I would like to see some changes - You want more shotmaking? Limit the number of clubs in the bag. 12 would make it very interesting. I would also like to see a max head size for drivers. How many CCs was the Big Bertha? 

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28 minutes ago, clevited said:

How is trying to score as low as possible fundamentally altering the game?  There is no sign next to the tee that says "do not hit over water or face dq" or something.  The beauty of golf is you can score as low as you can based on your skill set.  While the strategy of golf has someehat changed over time, skills have just moved around.  There is an extra premium on other skills compared to years past like putting, chipping and scrambling.  Its just evolution imo.

 

That`s true. Players of yesteryear didn`t spend the same time working on short game. Yes, there were masters just watch Shell`s WW of G. You will also see that greens were much slower and inconsistent. I would argue that makes the game dramatically easier. You don`t have to take into account speed near as much. It`s much easier to embarrass yourself on today`s putting greens. 

 

The pros did hit a lot more long irons into greens. Long, bladed irons are difficult to hit. It takes a lot of skill to hit them. So, goes the argument. Yet, a lot of top pros still prefer blades... You don`t have to look too hard to find people will preach that blades confer the utmost control and precision. So, maybe the players of yesteryear weren`t so hard done by? Look at True Tempers most used shaft on tour. It`s design has been around a long, long time.

 

As an aside, was BD the first major champion to use graphite in his irons? I bet more players are using TTDG than graphite, pro or amateur. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, clevited said:

Bryson took a ballsy line imo.  He made it look easy, it is not.  I dislike all of the comments about distance and it making the game less skilled etc.  Its about getting the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes, not playing the course as intended.  If you were at a putt putt course and had the skill to hit the ball up and over the windmill for an easy bird, that is a skill and shouldn't cause outrage just because you make it look easy.  These are the best of the best.  99.9% of the golfers in the world can't do what Bryson did or even if they had that distance, wouldn't try.

Real question.  slash statement. 
 

 

last two rounds with Bryson on #6.  He drives it both times into spots where he can’t even hit the green in 2.  Really great lob shots over bunker at water then 4-5 footer to make 4s.   
 

Using the obvious logic of trying to make the lowest score.  Wouldnt it make more sense to drive it to the fairway where he has 125 -100 in and wedge it for an eagle putt ? Not talking stats.   They obviously only hold true of he hits the fairway that close to the green.  He had no look at eagle I guess is my point.  So I don’t see how he gained shots on the field making 4s.  
 

 

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31 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Real question.  slash statement. 
 

 

last two rounds with Bryson on #6.  He drives it both times into spots where he can’t even hit the green in 2.  Really great lob shots over bunker at water then 4-5 footer to make 4s.   
 

Using the obvious logic of trying to make the lowest score.  Wouldnt it make more sense to drive it to the fairway where he has 125 -100 in and wedge it for an eagle putt ? Not talking stats.   They obviously only hold true of he hits the fairway that close to the green.  He had no look at eagle I guess is my point.  So I don’t see how he gained shots on the field making 4s.  
 

 

I think the logic is to get as close to the green as possible. The final day, going into that bunker was an obvious error. If you had told BD that that is where he would play his second if he hit drive, I bet he would take a different line/club. 

 

I think the statistics are pretty clear on a par 5 that getting your second as close to the green as possible gives you the lowest score. Wouldn`t it also stand, to get your drive as close as possible to the green too?

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Real question.  slash statement. 
 

 

last two rounds with Bryson on #6.  He drives it both times into spots where he can’t even hit the green in 2.  Really great lob shots over bunker at water then 4-5 footer to make 4s.   
 

Using the obvious logic of trying to make the lowest score.  Wouldnt it make more sense to drive it to the fairway where he has 125 -100 in and wedge it for an eagle putt ? Not talking stats.   They obviously only hold true of he hits the fairway that close to the green.  He had no look at eagle I guess is my point.  So I don’t see how he gained shots on the field making 4s.  
 

 

 

I think its obvious he feels he can better capitalize the closer he gets to the green.  I think he has been vocal about that but I could be wrong.  He isn't afraid of the short shots out of bunkers or rough and I don't think he sees a 100-125 yard shot in the fairway as better off than a short shot out of rough or a bunker generally speaking.  Hopefully a stats junky can confirm or deny this, but am I remembering correctly that the stats show the closer you are the better regardless of if its in the fairway or not?

 

Edit: lol just read the post above me.  Basically that.

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4 hours ago, disco111 said:

The pro game can be adjusted very easily and without altering the ball or clubs.....................Change the holes to adjust a new par rating. Par 5's become par 4's, convert par 4's to drive able lengths with decent hazard areas and par 3.......well their par 3's.

Not really, that's part of the problem---adding 10 acres of land on to a course in order to achieve that. Not feasible.

4 hours ago, disco111 said:

 

 

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Couple of points for mine. Everyone is really only talking about Bryson. One player. So do we change everything for him? Nah. Look at the bulk of players on that hole and see what they averaged in both distance to the hole for their second shot and also score. To be fair Bryson had to work hard for his birdies. 
 

And Bryson has worked freaking hard to get the distance he’s got. Nothing wrong with that. Unless he becomes the norm or the average, no need to change although debate and talk is healthy. 
 

And lastly, didn’t he win at -11? Hardly killing the course...
 

And somewhat in contradiction, Rory only hit it 9 yards shorter but no one was going crazy over him. And he is like 5 nine and 165 pounds... And he went in the water at least twice on that hole. So risk reward is a real part of the game. No need to change that. 
 

Anyway, it’s all been said and spoken about so my apologies. To Debate is good though. At some point something will have to change and it can’t be lengthening courses.  

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4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Real question.  slash statement. 
 

 

last two rounds with Bryson on #6.  He drives it both times into spots where he can’t even hit the green in 2.  Really great lob shots over bunker at water then 4-5 footer to make 4s.   
 

Using the obvious logic of trying to make the lowest score.  Wouldnt it make more sense to drive it to the fairway where he has 125 -100 in and wedge it for an eagle putt ? Not talking stats.   They obviously only hold true of he hits the fairway that close to the green.  He had no look at eagle I guess is my point.  So I don’t see how he gained shots on the field making 4s.  
 

 

I think the difficult part is that the fairway is guarded by water, and is really not meant to be hit into sideways, since it's then so short.  You want to clear the water safely, and still be in the fairway means you basically can have no roll on the drive.  

 

As for the no look at eagle, being 70 yards away for his second shot is going to be better strokes gained wise than he's 180 away.  Even if he's in the rough.  I remember his first one which he didn't hit hard enough, so neutering his chances of making an eagle putt (almost made it).  But still he definitely gained strokes on the drive, yet not the rest of the shots.  Basically the Cameron Champ problem every hole.  Drives it great but every other part of the game is sub par.  

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7 hours ago, clevited said:

 

I think its obvious he feels he can better capitalize the closer he gets to the green.  I think he has been vocal about that but I could be wrong.  He isn't afraid of the short shots out of bunkers or rough and I don't think he sees a 100-125 yard shot in the fairway as better off than a short shot out of rough or a bunker generally speaking.  Hopefully a stats junky can confirm or deny this, but am I remembering correctly that the stats show the closer you are the better regardless of if its in the fairway or not?

 

Edit: lol just read the post above me.  Basically that.

I’m not speaking in broad terms for all holes. I’m talking #6.  Why hit it into a bunker and have a 75-80 yard bunker shot that you miss the green with vs hit it slightly right for a wedge in ?  

 

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8 hours ago, kasting333 said:

Any rollback won’t be enough for these blowhards

I wouldn’t calll Jamie a blow hard.  But he can be a bit flip floppy.  
 

he said this morning that Bryson was pro rollback.  That he understood that his advantage would stay , if not grow.  

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16 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Can't tell you how often the TV is on in my office, but not watched.  That's the same with others I know.   Hell, even at home the TV is on in the LR, even on the patio, yet NOT being watched. 

 

 

If a TV is on in the forest and no one is there to watch it, is it really on?

 

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40 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I wouldn’t calll Jamie a blow hard.  But he can be a bit flip floppy.  
 

he said this morning that Bryson was pro rollback.  That he understood that his advantage would stay , if not grow.  

Rory has said the same thing.  Make the game harder?  Good- bring it on.

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I’m not speaking in broad terms for all holes. I’m talking #6.  Why hit it into a bunker and have a 75-80 yard bunker shot that you miss the green with vs hit it slightly right for a wedge in ?  

 

I am not entirely sure if that wasn't a mistake that he hit it in the bunker.  He might have felt that even if it went long into a bunker that he had a better opportunity to make at least birdie than he would have playing that hole in a typical fashion.   If that was his thinking, he just didn't execute.

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55 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Rory has said the same thing.  Make the game harder?  Good- bring it on.

Yep.  Abd I get that.  Makes complete sense to me. 

 

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