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What really makes an iron forgiving besides the cavity? Offset or wide sole?


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The problem I have with some game improvement irons is the wide sole, it does not fit my swing and I tend to hit fat shots so I keep going back to my forged CBs with thin soles.

 

Yesterday, I played with my old Tommy Armour 845s Silver Scots and it dawned on me at how unique and advanced this iron is.  Compact blade, thinnish sole, full cavity back and a good amount of offset.  It's almost like I am playing my Bridgestone J33 CBs but with a lot of offset and I was surprised at how well I was hitting them and how easy it is to hit them high.

 

So I am thinking besides the obvious cavity back making it forgiving, OFFSET is really what makes an iron forgiving because wide soles don't suit everybody.  Your thoughts?

 
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This is a really interesting topic, actually.

 

I've got opinions on this, which fundamentally boil down to this: it depends on the golfer and what type of problems they have in their delivery that might or might not be addressed by various design features.

 

However, one iron feature I've always had a real problem understanding is the thick, chunky topline. Back in engineering school, I took courses in statics and dynamics so I think I have a basic feel for how MOI works (full disclosure, I'm not a mechanical engineer - those were adjunct subjects for me). What is not clear is how putting extra mass up high on a club benefits an iron where 99% of iron shots are off the deck. Putting mass down low helps launch from low strikes. Moving mass to the toe/heel helps to some degree on, well, toe/heel strikes. But how many player struggle from hitting a ball too high on the face in a standard, off-the-turf, iron shot? What function is provided by that thick topline?

 

Is it just psychological - "massive looking head = easier to hit"? Looking at wood/hybrid design, mass is concentrated down low. The crown is there mainly to provide structural support, and some fancy clubs go so far as to use carbon fiber crowns to minimize the weight that is placed high, and maximize the weight that is low. 

 

Maybe if you built an iron with lots of mass down low and out to the heel/toe, but still have a thin topline, it's only a partial cavity. And that might not "meet expectations" even though the physical benefit isn't there. Sorta like the non-functional wings on the back of many cars.

 

Sole width and bounce, of course, are other design parameters, and how well they work depends on how the particular golfer delivers the clubhead. Sounds like you, like many others, get on better with thin soles. Others may need that fat sole. 

 

Offset, too, seems a bit dubious.

 

 

 

 

Edited by dubbelbogey
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J33CB are a classic and MP52/53 63ish are the Mizuno example.Bbig G10ish soles are too big so where is the mid ground? Srixon 785? AP2 714/718?

S58 was popular...

Lower offset,Stylish...

Try these popular examples.ps fat shots are where i go with mizuno wedges...so its not the Sole;s fault completely.

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HUGE head that is perimeter weighted with a massive sweet spot

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Offset is for people that are challenged at keeping their hands ahead of the club head.  Is that forgiving, yes, for those that need it, but otherwise, not so much.  The question is whether a person can adapt to offset?  I can make it work but chose not to.  What makes a club more forgiving than others IMO, is a large perimeter CB and low and back from the face, nickel size CoG.

 

Take a large deep perimeter cavity with wide sole, add lots of bounce and camber, and blunt leading edge, include weight in the lower portion of the head, where the low and back CoG is focused, hence very forgiving club.

 

My 620's have almost zero offset, minimal bounce, narrow sole, and mine have a tad more of a (shaved) sharper leading edge.  The 620 CBs have a shallow perimeter cavity, which give them a tad more forgiveness than MB, but the lower portion of the head in the cavity is weighted as is the toe and heel in long irons.  For a cavity back head, they purposely play more like the MBs as opposed to most player CBs.

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3 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

What makes an iron design "easier to hit" and/or "forgiving" is largely dictated by having the COG (sweet-spot) located in the best place for the given player.  We might initially assume that the manufacturers would always place the COG in the "best" place to make the design as easy to hit as possible, relative to it's size.  However, this is not always the case.

 

We have a lot measurements and data on this, so testing and comparisons can be done.  Take for example the 845's that you find easy to hit.  They have a relatively low COG (sweet-spot) and it also in the center of the face....not towards the heel at all (which many are).  

 

Lets compare the COG (sweet-spot) locations for the 845 vs your Bridgestone J33 CB's.

 

The 845 has an actual vertical COG at .759" up from the "ground line" and it's horizontal location is 1.380" from the hosel

 

The J33 CB was measured at .708" and 1.174"

 

The most significant difference is that the J33 CB has a sweet-spot that is somewhat heel side of the center of the face, making them less forgiving on any strikes slightly on the toe side of the face.

 

Keep in mind that an iron will twist more on strikes that are 'outside' the COG towards the toe vs a strike that is inside of the COG towards the heel.  Therefore the 845 has a larger effective area on the face for relatively solid strikes and it's more forgiving towards the toe.  The J33 CB demands a strike location that is inside of center or at the 'least' dead center, which equals less face area to work with for relatively solid contact.

 

In general when looking at the measurements and data, you would likely find success with those that have a COG (sweet-spot) that would be considered "low to mid-ish" and "long", being a further distance from the hosel and centered in the face.

 

Another example of a popular classic iron that has always been described as "easy to hit" and forgiving is the Ping Eye2.  It's measurements are a COG at .805" up from the "ground-line" and 1.485" out from the hosel.  Again here, more face area to work with vs many others of the same size, because of the precise location of the sweet-spot

Thanks for this, very educational and I completely agree with your assessment that the sweet spot of the J33CB is somewhat heel side.  I've had the 845s since 1990 and this is good to know, glad I still have them.

 
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2 hours ago, dubbelbogey said:

This is a really interesting topic, actually.

 

I've got opinions on this, which fundamentally boil down to thisit depends on the golfer and what type of problems they have in their delivery that might or might not be addressed by various design features.

 

This is the key part that is always missed in the bi-weekly ‘blades/cavity/SGI’ debacles.  Mass marketing has programmed folks to believe features such as offset, large heads, wide soles, spring faces, heavy top rails, maximum perimeter weighting, etc are good for everybody.  This is compounded by the fact that many folks equate the amount one can adjust parameters within the space/materials restraints/constraints of iron design is as great as one might be able to accomplish in a 460cc driver head.  The fact that ‘science is undeniable’ cuts both ways.  Design features DO manipulate change but NOT by very much.

 

Ultimately, there is no one universal ‘more forgiving’ design.  There are designs that can help certain types of golfers with certain issues or desires but one man’s treasure may well be trash for the next woman.  IMO, the two most important design features are can you hit it high enough and does it give you confidence.

 

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4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Offset is for people that are challenged at keeping their hands ahead of the club head.  Is that forgiving, yes, for those that need it, but otherwise, not so much.  The question is where a person can adapt to offset?  I can make it work but chose not to.  What makes a club more forgiving than others IMO, is a large perimeter CB and low and back from the face, nickel size CoG.

 

Take a large deep perimeter cavity with wide sole, add lots of bounce and camber, and blunt leading edge, include weight in the lower portion of the head, where the low and back CoG is focused, hence very forgiving club.

 

My 620's have almost zero offset, minimal bounce, narrow sole, and mine have a tad more of a (shaved) sharper leading edge.  The 620 CBs have a shallow perimeter cavity, which give them a tad more forgiveness than MB, but the lower portion of the head in the cavity is weighted as is the toe and heel in long irons.  For a cavity back head, they purposely play more like the MBs as opposed to most player CBs.

Good post! Every time you mention your 620 MBs I tell myself I need to get on that and order a set already. What a beautiful set of irons 😍

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4 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

Top-line width is generally just for looks.  Many players will automatically assume that a thinner top-line equates to "harder to hit" and "less forgiving"

...

It's a myth and an assumption that just because an iron is larger with a bigger cavity back, that it will be easier to hit and more forgiving.  It reality, it depends on where the mass has actually ended up in a given design.

 

Yup. That's fundamentally the same conclusion that I've come to as well. (Though in my post, I stated things as questions, to see if anybody might answer otherwise.)

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Withought getting too deep in the weeds, the two most important factors in forgiving irons in my opinion is loft and blade size. Im positive the 845s have more loft than the irons you are comparing them too. A 34 degree 7 iron will be easier and straighter to hit than a 30 degree 7 iron. Blade size is just simply more area on the face for one to hit. The other stuff contributes but in a much smaller capacity.

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3 hours ago, Cwebb said:

It's a myth and an assumption that just because an iron is larger with a bigger cavity back, that it will be easier to hit and more forgiving.  In reality, it depends on where the mass has actually ended up in a given design.

 

Tommy Armour Ti100!!!   Vertical CG of 0.986"

 

😈

 

(I just wanted to mention those, LOL)

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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Most of the higher handicappers have 1 or more of these attributes.

 

Slicing (rather than hooking)

 

Missing (straight-ish) to the fade/block side.

 

Fat shots (rather than thin) & "digging".

 

Trouble getting the ball airborne.

 

 

The larger the club head and the more weight around the perimeter the larger the effective sweet spot.

 

Weight far BACK/DEEP in the club head enhances forgiveness (just as in drivers) hence deeper soles.

 

Deep soles have more effective bounce and will help and sometimes even "save" a slightly fat shot. i.e. 6* bounces are not created equal.

 

Deep soles would likely be heavier soles as well helping players get the ball up in the air more easily.

 

Weight up high (as in top line) most likely makes for better/more even, perimeter weighting to position the sweet spot. Can also negate a too heavy sole and mitigating hitting it "too" high. A thinner topline mightn't properly "offset" the larger amount of sole weight.

 

Offset promotes a less blocky/fadey shot by giving the club head a tiny bit more time to square up.

 

These are all attributes of most GI/SGI irons. The fewer of these faults that plague the golfer the less he needs all those forgiveness features and the more he's headed towards GI or PCB, or even blades.

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3 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

It's a myth and an assumption that just because an iron is larger with a bigger cavity back, that it will be easier to hit and more forgiving.  In reality, it depends on where the mass has actually ended up in a given design.

 

More forgiving. The larger the cavity the more likely it IS more forgiving.

 

Easier to hit ? Agree. Not necessarily.

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------Yesterday, I played with my old Tommy Armour 845s Silver Scots and it dawned on me at how unique and advanced this iron is.  Compact blade, thinnish sole, full cavity back and a good amount of offset. 

 

I am very confused....the 845's have a very wide sole in my opinion....would never describe them as being "thinnish".....I've been using 845 copies since 1994.

 

-------I'm positive the 845s have more loft than the irons you are comparing them too. A 34 degree 7 iron will be easier and straighter to hit than a 30 degree 7 iron. 

 

Agreed.....845 7 iron is 36 degrees

Edited by Joe Mannix
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CWebb has already mentioned CG location, but the other aspect of forgiveness is MOI, Moment of Inertia.  MOI is the measurement of a clubhead's resistance to twisting, which is the point of perimeter weighting.  The higher the MOI, the less the clubhead twists.

 

Having a cavity in the back of the club doesn't guarantee a high MOI.  There have been some CBs with surprisingly low MOI.

 

To get something truly forgiving, I think you need a CG you can get at (see CWebb's posts), and a reasonably high MOI.  

 

Offset isn't really a player there.  Helps get the ball in the air by helping to move the CG back, but I wouldn't call it a forgiveness aid.  Sole width, can depend on course conditions and one's swing.

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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20 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

More forgiving. The larger the cavity the more likely it IS more forgiving.

 

Easier to hit ? Agree. Not necessarily.

Not saying i disagree, but this brings up some interesting things. There has actually been some recent evidence that a large cavity will provide worse dispersion patterns. So i guess its how you define forgiving. Retain ball speed? Retain spin? Front to back dispersion? Left to right dispersion? 
 

if you are a new player and high capper and a clean strike on the face is considered a win, then play the largest thing you can stand. If you can find the face 9/10 times and hosel rockets and toe screamers arent an issue, then blade size and cavity/perimeter weighting becomes rather dubious on wether or not its helpful. Just my two cents.

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29 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

More forgiving. The larger the cavity the more likely it IS more forgiving.

 

Easier to hit ? Agree. Not necessarily.

 

It can be.  The issue is that if the COG (sweet-spot) is "hard to find" for the given player,...will a big cavity or high MOI really make the head design a good choice to help with miss-hits?

 

For example, if an iron has a COG that is well above .840" and towards the heel... with the player's impact pattern tending to be low and towards the toe,...is a big cavity back going to make this a helpful head design for this player?

 

A higher MOI enhances a good or 'decent' COG location.  It does not "cover up" for a bad one.

 

NRJyzr posted a good example above.  The Tommy Armour Ti-100 which was a massive sized head.  The problem with many of these big iron heads is that the face is also tall, which greatly promotes a high COG (sweet-spot).  In this case, it was measured at .986".  It also had a huge MOI at 16.24.  Trying to hit that club from any kind of a 'normal' to tighter lie, lead to a lot of frustration...and the huge cavity and MOI didn't cover up for it

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I never understood the chunky topline either, it makes an extended blade length look shorter by relative comparison. The "confidence over the ball" thing should come from hitting the irons and that firsthand experience with them, not by looking at them. I prefer a slightly longer heel-to-toe and a thin topline. The thin topline makes the face look so much bigger.

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MOI is a contributor to forgiveness.  However, that spec and others like it, are only known in places like this by people that care about such data.  Most average golfers haven't a clue such data exists and if they did, wouldn't know how to apply it to their success or failure with given clubs. 

 

I may know the specs of all my sets, but they are not important to playing good golf.  In other words, I don't use that data to buy clubs, no one should.

 

Among our closest golf friends, only 3 have been fit by a professional.  The rest bought CB's based on the size of the CB, it's looks, price, but mostly OEM advertising.   What makes an iron forgiving or not, perhaps has to do with how each person feels about their clubs and game.

 

 

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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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