One length irons WOW!!!

[Rich Douglas]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:20 AM, LPSISCO said:

I tried the single length Cobra irons last year. The 4,5,6,7 were really easy to hit for me; the 4 and 5 were much better than a normal set. But the wedges were horrible, could not get used to them at all. 
 

I’d like to try a 2 length system - 4 thru 7 at a 7 iron length, 8 thru Gap at PW length. 

 

I struggled with the wedges at first, until I realized I was (subconsciously) backing off of them because of their greater length. That was 5 years ago and I never looked back.

 

The problem with a 2-length setup is that you lose a valuable aspect of the concept--a single swing for every iron. Yes, even with single-length irons you have other clubs of different lengths to hit. But the concept makes it much simpler to groove an iron swing.

[Tree Levino]

5 minutes ago, Rich Douglas said:

 

For slower swing speeds, the lower-lofted irons do become more difficult to maintain proper gaps. But this is true in traditional irons, too; it just happens later in the set. But most players should be playing anything longer than a 5- or 6-iron anyway, no matter which set. That's why hybrids are so popular.

 

True, speed is needed to maintain proper gaps in the long end. I'm around 95-96 mph on trackman with a 7i so I have no issue maintaining launch with my set irons down to 4, but most average speed golfers should go at least to a more "helpful" iron at 4 and 5, but most should drop the 4 entirely and go to a hybrid. When I was a bit slower I went to Titleist TMB in the 4 and 5 and even though they didn't protect miss hits off the toe etc they launched higher and therefore maintained distance better (Similar to what Bryson does). When speed drops even more, the hybrids help SO much in the long end. I rebuilt my dad's bag last year. He's 63 now and swings a 7 iron in the low 80s. We dropped the 3w and went 4w-7w-23h and then helpful 5 iron. We have considered getting him a 27* hybrid too to get a bit more height. His game around 170-210 has improved SO much from these changes and getting rid of the 4i. 

[Rich Douglas]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:14 AM, TechBroker said:

What do you chip with? 

 

Whichever club is appropriate for the situation. Single-length clubs don't change that--even though the static length of the wedges are longer than are traditional wedges.

 

First, if you like chipping with your clubs at full length, you get used to chipping with these really quickly.

 

Second, if you choke down on your wedges to chip, you'll see no difference here.

[Rich Douglas]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:23 AM, lefthack said:

Yeah, I like the concept, I just know my gaps in the top end would suffer and relearning to chip would also take a while.

 

If you haven't played them, you'd be surprised at how this isn't necessarily true.

 

Yes, gapping at the very top can be a problem, especially for slower swingers. About 15% of your carry distance--with any set--is due to length. Some of that is made up in single-length by the clubhead design. Still, you might find it harder to maintain gaps at the lowest lofts. Generally speaking, expect your set to end one club sooner. If the lowest-lofted club in your traditional irons is a 4-iron, it will likely be a 5-iron in single-length clubs. (Especially if you play them short; mine are 36.5", an 8-iron length.) 

 

You don't need to "relearn to chip," either. If you choke down on the club to chip, there will be no difference. If you chip holding the club at the end, you'll quickly get used to it because your stance will be similar to your full-length swing. My carry distances chipping with single-length clubs are not noticeably different, either.

[Rich Douglas]

On 3/14/2021 at 3:03 PM, iNeedMoreGolf said:

The idea of the longer pw freaks me out a bit.

 

It goes away quickly. 

 

Again, if you haven't played it, you can't really know. There is a lot about this that is counter-intuitive.

[Rich Douglas]

On 3/15/2021 at 8:11 AM, uglande said:

I played the Forged One Length (the ones Bryson uses) for a season. I played them from 4 iron through LW -- the whole shebang.

 

My results are the same as most people's. Loved them from 9 iron through 6 iron. But gap with 5 iron was not large enough relative to the 6 iron, and the 4 iron was just inconsistent, useless, low bullets. Meanwhile, the PW and other wedges went up into the clouds, and pitch shots were absolutely impossible. Totally inconsistent. I actually enjoyed chipping with the one-length wedges, but pitch shots were a nightmare. 

 

I play my clubs at 36.5". Thus, the PW is just 1 inch longer than a traditional PW. This means it has very little effect on ball flight.

 

My experience over the past 5 years of playing single-length clubs is that the ballooning effect is largely imaginary and mostly exaggerated. However, it can be more of a problem the longer your set is.

[Rich Douglas]

On 3/15/2021 at 8:13 AM, uglande said:

In the wedges, in order to keep the swing weights consistent, the heads are very light, and I think that's what produced the inconsistency and lack of a solid feel.

 

Huh? In a properly constructed single-length set, the heads are all the same weight (with a gram or two for manufacturing tolerances). They have to be since they're all attached to identical shafts. This creates identical swing weights throughout the set.

 

In traditional sets, the clubheads get lighter as the numbers (and lofts) go lower. This is to account for the progressively longer (and heavier) shafts.

 

"Swing weight" is all about feel. If the swing weights are the same, the feel will be as well. This doesn't add up. 

[lefthack]

Not sure when or where  I will stumble on a lefty single length setup to try, but it's interesting. Not enough to buy blind, but still.

[Rich Douglas]

23 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

My LW, SW and PW are the same length as my 9i - 36".  I found no issues with that, but having all clubs the same as 6 or 7i is not something I care to even test. 

 

One-Length irons are not beneficial in the hands of most golfers.  Sure, some people may look to adapting  but most people won't.   One-length irons are IMO extreme.  Of all the years golf clubs have been around, there is an unknown reason why One-length clubs are making a tour debut now, in the hands of one tour player.  BC may be a physics nerd, but that does NOT mean his nerdy perception has discovered something that is transferable to average Joe golfer that struggles at best to hit long irons, and has little short game.  In other words, golfers can't buy a golf game by changing clubs, especially to an extreme configuration.  Golfers should have learned that by now.  Oh, there's the other fact, golfers are NOT working out building muscle like BC to hit those clubs. 

 

This teems with mythology. I'll try to break it down quickly.

 

If you haven't played them, you can't know. Sorry. There is an inability to infer the differences.

 

Making broad, unsupported statements like "most golfers...." and "are IMO extreme" add nothing because they're backed by nothing. 

 

I'm not at all surprised that tour players aren't switching. Here are three reasons why they don't. First, their games--and they're the best in the world--are based on traditional irons. Switching could be as disastrous as going to the Stack-and-Tilt was, or when Payne Stewart signed with Top Flite. Second, these players hit it on the nose every time with every club. They don't need the assistance and certainly would not want to make the compromises in their games for an advantage they do not need. Finally, there is a lot of money tied up in equipment contracts. (But that third one is the least important. If they could take advantage of this concept, they'd either switch or pressure the OEMs to come out with single-length versions.)

 

BDC is unique in that he made the switch before he had anything on the line. I don't know if we'll see more of his ilk coming up through the ranks.

 

Golfers have been trying to buy a better game since the introduction of mass-produced clubs. Most innovations are distinctions without a difference. But not this one.

[Rich Douglas]

22 hours ago, me05501 said:

One of the big selling points of one-length shafts is that players should be able to practice with any iron in the set and have that practice apply to all the others. As many have noted, that doesn't really seem to be the case so far. 

 

 

Ah, but it is.

[Rich Douglas]

20 hours ago, gators78 said:

I do like the concept, but I think it takes a fair amount of fitting club-by-club up front, which you hopefully save in practice down the road.

This is true for any set of clubs. Single-length clubs are exactly the same in this regard.

[Rich Douglas]

50 minutes ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

 

True, speed is needed to maintain proper gaps in the long end. I'm around 95-96 mph on trackman with a 7i so I have no issue maintaining launch with my set irons down to 4, but most average speed golfers should go at least to a more "helpful" iron at 4 and 5, but most should drop the 4 entirely and go to a hybrid. When I was a bit slower I went to Titleist TMB in the 4 and 5 and even though they didn't protect miss hits off the toe etc they launched higher and therefore maintained distance better (Similar to what Bryson does). When speed drops even more, the hybrids help SO much in the long end. I rebuilt my dad's bag last year. He's 63 now and swings a 7 iron in the low 80s. We dropped the 3w and went 4w-7w-23h and then helpful 5 iron. We have considered getting him a 27* hybrid too to get a bit more height. His game around 170-210 has improved SO much from these changes and getting rid of the 4i. 

 

I swing the 8-iron at 88mph. That, theoretically, puts me into a 4-iron in SL clubs built at 36.5" (an 8-iron length). And I had one with my Sterling set. I played it off-and-on for 4 years, but it was really on the edge of effectiveness. It just didn't always carry enough to be distinct from the 5-iron (especially on slight mis-hits), except that it rolled out farther.

 

When Wishon introduced the new set that succeeded the Sterling, I didn't get concerned about the lack of a 4-iron. I'm still not. I don't miss it.

[Rich Douglas]

12 minutes ago, lefthack said:

Not sure when or where  I will stumble on a lefty single length setup to try, but it's interesting. Not enough to buy blind, but still.

You have my sincere sympathies. Because left-handers make up about 6% of irons sales, it's hard for niche producers to make the leap and ramp up to produce heads for them. The economies of scale are just too small for all but the largest OEMs. 

 

It's even harder to find a set to demo. Plus, doing a demo doesn't really tell you enough. You have to play them for awhile to perceive the differences. 

 

I'd recommend looking to buy a used set at 2nd Swing or on Ebay. Still a big commitment, but not as much as would be in buying a new set.

[lefthack]

Yeah, it's on the list if "stuff to try out". I will likely get there eventually.

[Pepperturbo]

44 minutes ago, Rich Douglas said:

 

This teems with mythology. I'll try to break it down quickly.

 

If you haven't played them, you can't know. Sorry. There is an inability to infer the differences.

 

Making broad, unsupported statements like "most golfers...." and "are IMO extreme" add nothing because they're backed by nothing. 

 

I'm not at all surprised that tour players aren't switching. Here are three reasons why they don't. First, their games--and they're the best in the world--are based on traditional irons. Switching could be as disastrous as going to the Stack-and-Tilt was, or when Payne Stewart signed with Top Flite. Second, these players hit it on the nose every time with every club. They don't need the assistance and certainly would not want to make the compromises in their games for an advantage they do not need. Finally, there is a lot of money tied up in equipment contracts. (But that third one is the least important. If they could take advantage of this concept, they'd either switch or pressure the OEMs to come out with single-length versions.)

 

BDC is unique in that he made the switch before he had anything on the line. I don't know if we'll see more of his ilk coming up through the ranks.

 

Golfers have been trying to buy a better game since the introduction of mass-produced clubs. Most innovations are distinctions without a difference. But not this one.

That's like saying if I have only driven at my car at 175mph, I couldn't know what 200mph is like... and you'd be wrong.  You sound like a club salesman backed by bias.  True or not, I can and will make broad statements that you may not agree with.  This is a discussion board, not one filled with people that are scientifically educated.  I have NO interest in those style of clubs or the belief buying them would mean a better game.  My accomplishments and successes are not governed by dreams or idealism. 

[NRJyzr]

25 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

That's like saying if I have only driven at my car at 175mph, I couldn't know what 200mph is like.

 

Having played SL for a short time, I can't agree with that analogy.  Increasing speed by 14% isn't as material a change as swinging a 4 iron that's 1.5"-2" shorter.   It's quite a mental adjustment.

 

Playing SL really is both easier than standard length, *and* a completely different world.

 

It's probably more like comparing riding a unicycle to riding a bicycle.  Though that analogy isn't too good, either.  LOL

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by NRJyzr

[Pepperturbo]

25 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Having played SL for a short time, I can't agree with that analogy.  Increasing speed by 14% isn't as material a change as swinging a 4 iron that's 1.5"-2" shorter.   It's quite a mental adjustment.

 

Playing SL really is both easier than standard length, *and* a completely different world.

 

It's probably more like comparing riding a unicycle to riding a bicycle.  Though that analogy isn't too good, either.  LOL

 

You're welcome to disagree, it's NOT going to influence my perception.  Swinging a shorter 4i is NO big deal, its more about ones ability to adapt to conditions.  Like adjusting from 47" driver to 43". 

 

I have driven my car on an oval track at 175-185 mph so have a good idea what the G forces feel like at 200mph.  Now, if I had only driven 110mph there's a huge difference between that speed and the g-forces and reaction time at 200mph. 

[Tim Schoch]

Don't you think if one-length irons were so much better, more/all pros would be using them in a heartbeat?  Different often feels better.  For a while. If I'm in a putting slump, change the putter or change the ball or change my hat or change my shoes.  It works. For a while. But we all know it isn't the equipment, it's the swing, the mind. Right?

 

I've hit the one-length middle irons and they feel great, but the results were no better than my regular set for me.  Still, the chipping and half-shot wedge would seem to be on a learning curve, but maybe short one.  I don't know. I'm too old and set in my ways to risk dedicating time to a change so different---unless my Social Security check goes up if I score better. 

[Rich Douglas]

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

That's like saying if I have only driven at my car at 175mph, I couldn't know what 200mph is like... and you'd be wrong.  You sound like a club salesman backed by bias.  True or not, I can and will make broad statements that you may not agree with.  This is a discussion board, not one filled with people that are scientifically educated.  I have NO interest in those style of clubs or the belief buying them would mean a better game.  My accomplishments and successes are not governed by dreams or idealism. 

No, I am not affiliated with any golf company in any way. But I've played single-length irons at a pretty good level of performance for more than 5 years out of the 32 I've played this game.

 

Your analogy fails because you're implying a continuum that does not exist. These irons are unlike traditional-length irons in significant ways. You cannot effectively project traditional concepts onto this one.

 

I am not interested in what you do or do not believe. I am very much interested in addressing unsupported suppositions from players who have no experience with the subject. 

 

If I post something you can successfully refute, I will be the first in line to change my mind. Have at it.

[Rich Douglas]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

You're welcome to disagree, it's NOT going to influence my perception.

 

Then why do you post if you're not open to new information? Is it your need to be right?

 

Feel free to say something that changes someone's mind. Most of the myths I posted in an earlier part of this thread I once held, too, before actually playing these clubs.

 

While you posted this in response to someone else, I'll still say that I'm not interested in changing anyone's mind about anything. But I'm more than willing to pop a few myth-filled bubbles if it helps get real information out there about this subject.

[Rich Douglas]

3 hours ago, Tim Schoch said:

Don't you think if one-length irons were so much better, more/all pros would be using them in a heartbeat?  Different often feels better.  For a while. If I'm in a putting slump, change the putter or change the ball or change my hat or change my shoes.  It works. For a while. But we all know it isn't the equipment, it's the swing, the mind. Right?

 

I've hit the one-length middle irons and they feel great, but the results were no better than my regular set for me.  Still, the chipping and half-shot wedge would seem to be on a learning curve, but maybe short one.  I don't know. I'm too old and set in my ways to risk dedicating time to a change so different---unless my Social Security check goes up if I score better. 

 

There are all kinds of terrific reasons not to switch to single-length irons. And I understand the placebo effect. I would think, in my case, it would have worn off over these past 5 years. It has not.

 

I'm more consistent and accurate with iron play than before. It's that simple. The reasons are several, but the outcome is one: improvement. I haven't swung a traditional iron since making this switch in early 2016.

 

Very few sports give the competitor an opportunity to change equipment each time he/she is faced with a shot/move/turn/etc. Another, besides golf, is bowling. In bowling, the player can switch balls with different playing surfaces and internal weight distribution. In other words, he/she can alter how the shot will react to the lane conditions--more or less hook, more or less skid, etc. But what never changes is how the ball FEELS--the grip and the weight. Those stay constant--as does his/her swing. Well, same here. 

 

There are physics-based limits to the concept. The two I find most striking in single-length irons lie at each end of the set's spectrum. The lower-lofted the club, the more likely you will not be able to achieve effective gaps (and, thus, performance). About 85% of the carry distance of the club is created by loft (static and dynamic). The other 15% is created by length. Well, that catches up to you at some point, depending on your swing speed and the shaft length you've chosen. For me, a relatively fast swinger, it was between the 4- and 5-iron. I can get consistent performance from the 5-iron, but my misses with a 36.5" 4-iron were just too bad.

 

But this is true with all clubs. We recently saw Bryson playing around with a 48" driver, but he didn't put it in play because it was too wild. Well, if you took that driver and gave it a shaft shorter than 42", the drop-off in distance would be so horrible you wouldn't like it, either.

 

The other problem is at the high-lofted end. The problem with single-length clubs there is that they're pretty long for such high-lofted clubs. If you both choke down and open the club face, you bring the toe into play and can flip open the fact at impact (as the toe catches the turf). This is because the lie angle is so flat (a la 8-iron, about 62 degrees for standard lies). Even though my lies angles are 2 degrees upright from standard, I still had this problem. So I put away my single-length L-wedge and put a traditional L-wedge into the bag. 

 

Here's the strongest argument against going with single-length clubs: you don't want to. And there's nothing wrong with that!

[Rich Douglas]

Here's the coolest thing of all about single-length irons: no matter what shot I have between 110 and 190 yards, it's an 8-iron. Every. Single. Time.

 

Not only is it always an 8-iron, it's the exact same swing I've been making for hundreds of rounds and hundreds of hours on the driving range. 

 

Anything longer and I'm hitting hybrids and woods. Anything shorter and I'm using my 4x3 method: 4 wedges, each with three swing lengths. And three of those wedges are...wait for it...the same as the rest of my irons. 

 

Every shot, except those I make with the LW, have the exact same set up, same ball position, same swing, same feel, and (often) the same outcome. 

 

Each of my irons--5-iron through Sand Wedge--has the exact same grip, weight (static), swing weight, length, lie angle offset, shaft, and even MOI.

 

And no, I'm not (as one poster stated) connected with any golf company of any kind. But I am a expert on adult learning (with two related doctorates), a trainer, and a coach. I know a lot less about golf than I do those subjects, but those subjects inform my golf decisions constantly.

 

Are single-length irons for you? There's no way anyone but you can answer that. And you can't decide that until you've played them.

[uglande]

7 hours ago, Rich Douglas said:

 

Huh? In a properly constructed single-length set, the heads are all the same weight (with a gram or two for manufacturing tolerances). They have to be since they're all attached to identical shafts. This creates identical swing weights throughout the set.

 

In traditional sets, the clubheads get lighter as the numbers (and lofts) go lower. This is to account for the progressively longer (and heavier) shafts.

 

"Swing weight" is all about feel. If the swing weights are the same, the feel will be as well. This doesn't add up. 

I meant head weight in the wedges relative to standard wedges, not relative to other clubs in the one-length set. I like a heavier head in the wedges, and I don't just mean swing weight. Obviously someone could build a wedge that weighs as much as a pencil and balance it so it comes out at D3. A heavier (static weight) head feels more solid to me and produces much more consistent results.

 

Regarding your earlier post, no, the super-high ball flight was not imaginary, although I was playing at 37.25 in. Believe me, I was all in on one-length and hit tens of thousands of balls with those irons. I'm not speaking as someone who just went to a Cobra demo day. 

 

It wasn't all bad. There were days when I was ecstatic but there were a lot of frustrations as well. I think there is merit to one-length, and I would try it again, but I want to see the tech evolve and get perfected. My experience with Cobra Forged One irons was close but no cigar. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by uglande

[bullie76]

I have a few SL irons in the bag. Six thru gap. But my 52 & 58 are variable length. And my hybrids are variable as well. I do like the concept of SL but I don't think it has to be that way throughout the bag. Play what works for you. 

[DonOmar]

Color me intrigued now. Weird timing for the post because I took my girlfriend to the range last week and decided to try her 5 hybrid because she loves it so much. I’ll can’t tell you how surprised I was to love it. The mix of the less intimidating length and more friendly upright lie angle was dope (coming from someone that hates fairways off the ground for the opposite reason). 
 

I’m definitely curious to at least try some one length for the top of the bag now. I get along with my stuff, but if one length can make things stress free and easier, as a gear head I’ll check it out. 

[mtg]

I'd love to try it... something tells me a two length system would be better though... thinking 38" 3-6 and maybe like 36.5" 7-P

[NRJyzr]

20 minutes ago, mtg said:

I'd love to try it... something tells me a two length system would be better though... thinking 38" 3-6 and maybe like 36.5" 7-P

 

You may wish to check out Value Golf, they have the Pinhawk Vertex iron set.  The site offers some info on the concept.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Value Golf, other than as a customer.  🙂

 

[mtg]

19 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

You may wish to check out Value Golf, they have the Pinhawk Vertex iron set.  The site offers some info on the concept.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Value Golf, other than as a customer.  🙂

 

ha that's funny they use the exact lengths I mention

 

I think you could actually rig up any set with those length specs. You're never more than an inch off standard - and that's the 3 iron that's a full inch - most people need to play a lighter swing weight 3 iron anyhow. I typically find most short irons end up needing heavier tip weights so longer length could be definitely be managed with the right set. 

 

If you're using something with a big pocket cavity in the long irons which you'd prob want to to boost launch, they're basically lead tape receptacles anyway.. thinking like MP-54s/Srixon 565 type iron

 

And you'd have to go forged so you can tweak lie angles. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by mtg

[OsnolaKinnard]

22 hours ago, Rich Douglas said:

 

I struggled with the wedges at first, until I realized I was (subconsciously) backing off of them because of their greater length. That was 5 years ago and I never looked back.

 

The problem with a 2-length setup is that you lose a valuable aspect of the concept--a single swing for every iron. Yes, even with single-length irons you have other clubs of different lengths to hit. But the concept makes it much simpler to groove an iron swing.

That struggle is purely mental.

 

The clubs are, or should be exactly here same save loft.

 

If you hit your 5 iron well... you should hit your PW well...make the same swing and trust it.

 

For me it is the opposite.  I want to murder my 5 iron while I make a nice relaxed swing with my PW.  When I make the PW swing with the 5 iron I get the desired results.

 

You have to trust it and that takes time to learn it and see it.

[lefthack]

27 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

You may wish to check out Value Golf, they have the Pinhawk Vertex iron set.  The site offers some info on the concept.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Value Golf, other than as a customer.  🙂

 

Oh hey, a dual length. That sounds interesting as well.