Why did Hogan want 3 right hands?

[alansmithdc]

Why did Hogan want 3 right hands? Previous answers have been for more power.  How exactly does having 2 more right hands create more power?  Also he said to hit as hard with the left hand as with the right hand at impact.(hit with both hands)  If he wanted 3 right hands for power, why not 3 left hands to hit just as hard with 3 left hands as well as 3 right hands as he stated in Five Lessons, otherwise the right 3 hands would over power the solo left hand?

Edited March 14, 2021 by alansmithdc
Misspelling

[Gsea]

1 hour ago, laneholt said:

have many more thoughts on this , but thanks for your excellent questions . I believe this subject on the HANDS is the MAJOR KEY to a successful, efficient golf swing and this research has already been conducted and mapped out for all to learn . Unfortunately, it is NOT available to the public !

why is this not available to the public?

[alansmithdc]

Could Gerry Hogan have improved Ben Hogan's swing if they had met?

Edited March 14, 2021 by alansmithdc

[dlygrisse]

7 hours ago, laneholt said:

  Again - IMO Gerry Hogan is the ONLY person on this Planet who figured it out , 

 

 

 

 

   

LOL. 

[chipa]

The right hand is important in the golf swing just as it is for a right handed pitcher. For those who release vigorously with the right hand it is no wonder they might believe a large amount of force is generated by the right hand. Nonetheless, from my perspective as an engineer and also having been able to swing over 120 mph when I was younger I would say that the swing is more complicated than just applying a right hand throwing motion, just as throwing a baseball is a lot more complicated. The golf swing is a combination of loading and unloading elastic members of the body and certain mechanical advantages and technique that take advantage of the skeletal system of the body(biomechanics). There are a lots of theories out there by well know and famous teachers but anyone with a physics or engineer degree should be able to point out most of these theories are not based on classical physics that is used to predict and design complex systems. This does not mean these golf teachers can't be effective teachers, only that their supposed scientific basis of the swing is not based on science but instead their perception.

Edited March 15, 2021 by chipa

[alansmithdc]

Good to know.  A medical researcher is working on a scientific approach using known bio mechanics to effortlessly increase power using bio mechanical principles seen in Bruce Lee's 1 and 6 inch punch.  Should be exciting info for golfers.

[chipa]

49 minutes ago, laneholt said:

China,

 

     Thank you . I am so glad I saw your post . Where have you been ? Please continue with your info . Help me stomp out this unsupportable, unsubstantiated, theory and opinion and perception that is spouted out as being FACTUAL!

  I am sure the theory crowd will spank you as they do me . Theory and opinion RULE these  days . 
   A question for a learned Engineer such as yourself ——- Can / could the feet and legs create POWER when their are a chain of 6 joints that power must travel through to get to where it is applied , especially considering the DS ONLY takes 2/10 seconds ?
  Thanks in advance for your answer. 

 

There are so many golf theories that break the laws of physics I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

Regarding where the power of the golf swing comes from, the most important thing that I have seen in my own experimentation are the hands. For example, I have an athletic move through the ball but if I don't hold the club properly and sequence the takeaway properly enough I can only attain about 80% of my max potential swing speed. IMO it's no wonder there is a great disparity of difference between how an amateur holds the club and sequences his takeaway compared to pros.

 

Regarding the legs and power, there is certainly a great deal of power to be generated by the legs and I would recommend throwing tires or hitting softballs or baseballs to feel how the lower body should work. However, without a correct grip the complete available power generated by the legs will never reach the clubhead.

 

I recommend a medium grip with the back of the left hand flexed slightly, which will cause the club to be held more in the left hand then the right and the right hand in the fingers with the back of the hand cupped. I also recommend a forward press as well. Here is a video of Shawn Clements demonstrating a lower body and hand press to start the swing. I don't agree with everything Shawn says but there is some stuff that I like of course.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by chipa

[chipa]

1 hour ago, laneholt said:

Chipa ,

 

    I hope you will allow me to respectfully disagree with you on several points in your reply !

This question will be boring and certainly rudimentary to your Engineer mind —-

 1—  Would a transmission through a single lever system be more efficient than a transmission through - say 6-7 levers ?

2- if the HANDS have the power to propel an object - and I don’t think they possess that power - then a third question arises .

3 - let’s use Tiger as man example . If Tiger is 6-2 inches tall I would guess that 90 degree LEVER he has formed between his ARMS and SHAFT puts his HANDS approx. ( guess ) 6-1/2 - 7 feet above his head vertical from the ground. Now - research has concluded that the DS takes approx. 2/10 seconds . Tigers HANDS travel some 4-5 feet from this height above his head through an arc during his DS . ( Again - a guess ) Yet - when he has PULLED his lever down during his DS his  HANDS are in front of the crease in his slacks and his 90 degree lever between his ARMS and SHAFT / LEVER is still maintained at 90 degrees ! His shaft is parallel to the ground and his RIGHT WRIST is still cocked back .

   Since 2/10 seconds is only about 1/2 of the humans normal reaction time - at what millisecond did Tiger decide he would * RELEASE / HIT * ? Could he have ? Could any human ?
Thanks  for your reply ! 
    
   

  

 

With all due respect I don't pretend to have all the answers to your questions nor much less the complete understanding of the golf swing.

 

What I can tell you though is that swing thoughts will kill velocity. We as humans don't need to know technique to walk nor much less run, and the golf swing is no different once certain parameters are set up correctly that enable us to use this magnificent body that God has created.

 

Regarding Tiger, I don't know if his technique is the best to copy, I would look at Mike Austin, John Daly as they exert much less torque on the lower back.

 

I achieved a 128 mph swing speed at 35 years old at 5'6" with a surgically fused lower back, which is close to TW's velocity, and I would say my natural  method is very close to Mike Austin's.

Edited March 15, 2021 by chipa

[chipa]

3 hours ago, laneholt said:

Chipa ,

 

     What type Engineering Degree do you have ? 

 

I have an agricultural engineering degree which was mostly a combination of mechanical and civil engineering. I have worked as a civil engineer since 1993.

[powerfade66]

On 3/14/2021 at 11:34 PM, laneholt said:

Alan,

     You have struck on a subject that has had my interest for years and your answers to your own questions indicate you are an intelligent- THINKER !

   IMO, here is my answer or answers - I truly believe that books written by  famous players and authors have tried valiantly to teach us the correct way to swing , but since the Human brain doesn’t receive or send messages to it’s extremities ( it’s DOMINANT HANDS ) in real time we might conclude that Mr. Hogan’s description of what he FELT he was doing  had actually already happened . IMO, this  is why I believe that golf instruction is so far off course . 
    I can certainly understand why Mr. Hogan , who i definitely admire , would think that he was ** HITTING ** with his HANDS . Most humans do think the same! However, the HANDS don’t possess the power or capabilities to propel any object very far , but THEY DEFINITELY DO ** CONTROL ** ALMOST ALL BODY MOVEMENT BC - over 40% of the brain is dedicated to it’s DOMINANT HANDS ( particularly to it’s VERY DOMINANT RIGHT HAND WHICH MORE CONSCIOUS EFFORT SHOULD BE APPLIED TO - FOR “”” CONTROL ONLY “””) and the body will always position itself to accommodate the path the hands desire to travel . 
    I have many more thoughts on this , but thanks for your excellent questions . I believe this subject on the HANDS is the MAJOR KEY to a successful, efficient golf swing and this research has already been conducted and mapped out for all to learn . Unfortunately, it is NOT available to the public !

Great post - thanks ! Finally someone questioning instead of following the herd !

 

The book has always been available around the place it just fetches a high price as it has been the subject of a few threads. I have a few copies under a pile somewhere. I collect golf books.

 

Interesting book but I disagree with a lot of it. I get a lot of power from right foot, knee and hip. If I don’t use my right leg at all there is a lot less power. His idea of how long it takes for messages to get to the hands is easily countered by the fact the golfer knows well in advance what he intends to do. A good golfer is not making mid swing adjustments. It’s a long time since I’ve read it but from memory he said something about locking them in place with right palm up or something like that. 

[chipa]

12 hours ago, laneholt said:

I dealt almost daily with Engineers in my 38 years Sales career. Very analytical intelligent people. 
   You didn’t respond to my questions and I wondered  what your thoughts about them might be ?

 

I answered more or less but I make it more clearer - I don't get into the mechanics of the downswing because imo it only robs one of power. I have learned that a certain setup and takeaway sequence allows me to get into a good connected position at the top and from there I just swing freely. I think it has worked because I am still able to generate good clubhead speed at 55 years of age.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, laneholt said:

Chipa,

 

    Great to hear. If you believe the mechanics of the DS robs one of power, then their is no use in our discussing this any further .

Wishing you good luck .

 

Ok as you wish. Just keep in mind my approach has allowed my to reach relatively high clubhead speeds, which according to my research is only attainable if one has decent mechanics as opposed to brute force.

[alansmithdc]

Good to know.  Searching 5 lessons the only right hand action I find is the basketball toss.  The right hand is about 3 right hands away from the left hand in holding the ball.

[powerfade66]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:22 AM, alansmithdc said:

Good to know.  Searching 5 lessons the only right hand action I find is the basketball toss.  The right hand is about 3 right hands away from the left hand in holding the ball.

He made a general comment about throwing sports having the right hand/wrist bent. More in the context of bowing the left wrist from memory. Also said it is where the low spinning wedge comes from in the better player. I see it as the right hand throwing the bowed left while somewhat holding that right wrist bend. 

[alansmithdc]

Makes sense. Good catch

[chipa]

On 3/16/2021 at 7:30 AM, laneholt said:

Chipa,

 

    Their is very little difference between the position of their HANDS and the angles between their ARMS and SHAFT *****LAG ***** of Daly or Austin or DeChambeau or Thomas , Wolfe , Koepka , Hogan , Berger, Conners , Johnson , etc; etc ; etc;............

   LAG has always been around . Their is NO POWER unless you have a LEVER SYSTEM !

 Even Taylormades Mr. Iron Bryon has a mechanical joint so it can create - a LEVER ! 

 

Lag is very important in a golf swing and it is difficult to teach but is very easy to feel. From what I can tell most beginner golfers don't feel lag as they start the swing with their right shoulder from the top. However, in my particular case I've never really done that. I suppose I played enough baseball as a kid and softball to learn to feel lag. I also believe my lower body had more to do with me learning lag more than any technique with the hands, after all if the hips get out of the way sufficiently the right elbow will have to drop allowing the right forearm and hand to get into a good position.

[chipa]

3 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Well , Chipa ,

 

     Respectfully , I will adamantly have to disagree with you and you might like to visit " Cortical Homunculus " to prove this to yourself. Dr. Wilder made these discoveries through his research many years ago and his research has been recognized by medical experts .

     You see - more than 40% of the human brain is dedicated to it 's extremities ( its DOMINANT HANDS ) and more than  40% is dedicated to it head . Their is none dedicated to it legs, hips , shoulders, knees toes, ankles . They are dummy's who take their orders from their bosses above .

    You may have the most beautiful HIP drive in the history of the game . A picture of your incredible HIP drive may be  on the wall of the Golf Hall of Fame , but your golf swing will still be crap BC your DOMINATE HANDS WILL ALWAYS ROLL OVER , TURN DOWN AND RUIN YOUR SHOT - if they are NOT TRAINED / TAUGHT to perform in an exact opposite manner than their normal human genetic behavior  - that is -- to bring food to your mouth and / or come to the centerline of your body /chest palms together and /or hanging down beside your hips in their normal space . Fortunately or unfortunately ( however you look at it ) their is NOTHING NATURAL about the golf swing . it is NOT in your subconscious brain. It is a learned conscious task which requires training our HANDS .   

    The humans DOMINANT HANDS #### C O N T R O L ##### almost all body movements and the body will ALWAYS position itself to accommodate the path the HANDS desire to travel. 

    I try hard to stick to FACTS ONLY . I don't travel in the THEORY or OPINION lane . Enough of that without me adding to it .

Great to hear from you. Thanks for your reply !     

 

I've never said hands were not important to the golf swing, only that I believe I learned to feel lag because of my leg drive I learned playing baseball and softball.

 

When I am swinging well I like to feel my hands snap through impact and my hands pull from my arms. Also, I hook the ball because of my dominant right hand action.

[alansmithdc]

Makes a lot of sense.  Looking at the homunculus there are a lot of brain cells devoted just to the thumb, which Hogan wanted out of the swing.  It seems based on facts only, the right thumb should play a pivotal and large role in the golf swing.  How come there is a discrepancy between neurological facts and Hogan's view.

[willard1523]

For me, pressure in the right thumb makes clubface closure happen too late and abruptly. "There's no down or around only forward". Still have no clue about 3 right hands but I think it's just a perfectly sequenced swing with the right hand being the last thing you feel.

[alansmithdc]

Left thumb (lead hand thum wear pattern.  Thoughts?

 

 

[Gsea]

too tight of a grip, wow. Sneads holding a bird analogy you killed the poor thing lol

[alansmithdc]

The blistering pattern is not conducive to a pattern of an overtight grip.  This is my friend's finger.  He develops tremendous amount of lag in his swing.  I suspect it is a unique distribution of blistering, due to the forces generated in his lead hand, due to the amount of lag he creates.

[Jeselnik]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:07 PM, alansmithdc said:

The blistering pattern is not conducive to a pattern of an overtight grip.  This is my friend's finger.  He develops tremendous amount of lag in his swing.  I suspect it is a unique distribution of blistering, due to the forces generated in his lead hand, due to the amount of lag he creates.

Playing the odds, most likely inconsistent PP#1 and possibly pre-diabetes.  

 

JNIK

[Jeselnik]

On 3/20/2021 at 5:26 PM, alansmithdc said:

Makes a lot of sense.  Looking at the homunculus there are a lot of brain cells devoted just to the thumb, which Hogan wanted out of the swing.  It seems based on facts only, the right thumb should play a pivotal and large role in the golf swing.  How come there is a discrepancy between neurological facts and Hogan's view.

There is no discrepancy.  Do not use as pincers, use as support and sensory.

 

J

[alansmithdc]

Good symptom catch.  He is going to get the h1 AC test his medical doctor previously recommended.

[mauiman]

Watch Monte’s cast downswing. I believe Hogan had the intent of flexing his right wrist from the start of the downswing. In reality it didn’t happen fast enough so it accelerated his arms and pivot. There is no acceleration by holding a bent right wrist into impact. Nicklaus did the same thing. Dump the angles!!

[alansmithdc]

A Martin Ayers type wrist movement?

[Sp4zRX]

Something to keep in mind is Hogan was actually left handed playing righty which may have played a part in his particular feels. 

[dashanks]

On 3/14/2021 at 1:25 AM, alansmithdc said:

Why did Hogan want 3 right hands? Previous answers have been for more power.  How exactly does having 2 more right hands create more power?  Also he said to hit as hard with the left hand as with the right hand at impact.(hit with both hands)  If he wanted 3 right hands for power, why not 3 left hands to hit just as hard with 3 left hands as well as 3 right hands as he stated in Five Lessons, otherwise the right 3 hands would over power the solo left hand?

You can read that entire passage in "Five Lessons" and still have no idea what Hogan was talking about.   By all accounts, Hogan wasn't a very warm and fuzzy guy.  I think he made statements like that just to mess with people's heads.  "The secret is in the dirt."  Same thing.

[Michael Shanker]

I believe Hogan wanted 3 right hands for the following reason:

As he released the club, his right hand moved faster than his left, however he was not strong enough to push it through any faster, since it only happens for an instant before contact, at least the feeling that you either couldn't time it right (in 0.05 sec), or more simply just lacked the strength to have an impact by a factor of 3.

Maybe 5 right arms would have been more accurate?