Club endorsements that undid their Pro

[KennyP]

 

2 minutes ago, iBanesto said:

 

I don't think Berger or Schauffele fall into this catergory.

 

Berger is back winning.

 

Schauffele is a money machine who hasn't been able to close out several opportunities.

.

Berger is back winning, but with his old TM MC's from 2012?, SIM woods and a Spider putter.

 

 

 

[the bishop]

3 minutes ago, KennyP said:

 

.

Berger is back winning, but with his old TM MC's from 2012?, SIM woods and a Spider putter.

 

 

 

And after healing a significant wrist injury.

[philly2kuk]

22 hours ago, games said:

Excerpt from article on Steve Stricker's World Match Play victory in January 2001:

 

For Stricker, this is a nice comeback for a player who only five years ago was considered a rising star after two victories in 1996.With success came riches, and with riches came trouble. He got rid of his Peerless irons to sign a lucrative deal with Taylor Made, and the new equipment made him blink. A switch to Ping didn't help, and now Stricker has no club deal and likes it that way.In his bag this week were clubs made by Callaway, Cobra, Ping, Titleist and Odyssey. Worth noting is that the driver (Callaway Big Bertha, a dinosaur in today's high-tech market) and the putter (Odyssey) were the same ones he used in 1996.

 

I think it's long been taken down, but Peerless went hard negative on Stricker on their public website.  I think it was around 1999 or 2000.  The site referenced a player that was in the top 20 in the world playing Peerless irons, then dropping out of the Top 100 when he stopped.  It was a pretty bitter message.  And, I think it was right on the catalog webpage of the irons Stricker used to use...

 

    

I remember stricker struggling at Taylormade as he couldn’t find a driver he was comfortable with.

Edited March 19, 2021 by philly2kuk

[iBanesto]

6 minutes ago, KennyP said:

 

.

Berger is back winning, but with his old TM MC's from 2012?, SIM woods and a Spider putter.

 

 

 

 

He had me fooled!

 

[KennyP]

1 minute ago, the bishop said:

And after healing a significant wrist injury.

 

Fair point. He must feel more comfortable with his old equipment though. 

 

I'm not having a go at Callaway, just pointing out in Harris English, Berger and Garcia are clear examples of players who not only lost form after switching, but regained form after leaving Callaway deals.

[the bishop]

3 minutes ago, KennyP said:

 

Fair point. He must feel more comfortable with his old equipment though. 

 

I'm not having a go at Callaway, just pointing out in Harris English, Berger and Garcia are clear examples of players who not only lost form after switching, but regained form after leaving Callaway deals.

Yeah I'm not a Callaway guy either or defending them, its just for some guys who change equipment then get hurt, how much loss of form do you assign to the injury vs. the equipment change?  Its not always easy.  Even with Watson and the change to the Volvik ball, this all occurred during a time when he was going through some kind of weird health issue which he didn't really address.  He lost a lot of weight for some reason and just didn't look healthy.  His switch back to the Titleist ball coincided with his seeming return to health (and some weight gain) and he won Genesis shortly after.

[KennyP]

7 minutes ago, the bishop said:

Yeah I'm not a Callaway guy either or defending them, its just for some guys who change equipment then get hurt, how much loss of form do you assign to the injury vs. the equipment change?  Its not always easy.  Even with Watson and the change to the Volvik ball, this all occurred during a time when he was going through some kind of weird health issue which he didn't really address.  He lost a lot of weight for some reason and just didn't look healthy.  His switch back to the Titleist ball coincided with his seeming return to health (and some weight gain) and he won Genesis shortly after.

 

 

I'm sure there's a mental component as well. When I see that someone still uses, say, the 2014 Pro V1 rather than the latest version, it's not because the 2014 version is a better ball, it's just because that's the ball they played their best golf with.

[tee207]

I feel like Callaway ruins people.

[Greg_B]

47 minutes ago, tee207 said:

I feel like Callaway ruins people.

 

Well, back in the day, that was what Nike did. There was a longstanding tradition of Nike Golf throwing big bucks at a player to use their gear and then that player losing all their form. Now, I agree with others here that when that happens it us usually less to do with the equipment than with the player themselves and what's in their head, but it was remarkable there for a while. The most notable example was David Duval, though we know that he had physical problems that took away his form that were coincidental with his move to Nike (and he won his Open while playing forged irons with a Nike logo on them). Then there was the chatter in the early years of Nike equipment (thanks mostly to Phil) that Tiger would have won even more had he not been playing with inferior Nike clubs.

 

To me the real puzzler was the case of Corey Pavin, who managed to win the US Open playing Cleveland VAS irons, as bizarre-looking a club as any that has ever been made, then lost form after moving to PRGR. Lee Janzen was the player whose performance could be most directly connected to a club change, when he switched from Founders forged blades to Hogan. What could go wrong? After all, Hogan made some of the best forged blades ever. But Hogan required him to use their H40 game-improvement irons which were among the worst clubs in that company's history, and he fell off the face of the earth. When they finally relented and let him switch to one of their forged blades, he bounced right back.

 

Stricker is an interesting case because he has always been someone whose head and more specifically his confidence level determines how well he plays. He was lost in the wilderness in the early-mid '90s, signed with Palmer Peerless, and started playing well. When Arnold didn't want to match the offer he got from TM he switched to them and lost all confidence in his game for a while. Someone like that should never chase the money unless it is just too much to ignore.

[EddieEdwards]

14 minutes ago, Greg_B said:

 

 

To me the real puzzler was the case of Corey Pavin, who managed to win the US Open playing Cleveland VAS irons, as bizarre-looking a club as any that has ever been made, then lost form after moving to PRGR. 

 

Obviously, too much offset.

 

Club Pro Guy and US Kids clubs.

[getair23]

2 hours ago, iBanesto said:

 

I don't think Berger or Schauffele fall into this catergory.

 

Berger is back winning.

 

Schauffele is a money machine who hasn't been able to close out several opportunities.

Berger is a free agent, and went back to his old TM irons.  

[mocokid]

18 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

I don't know.  Maybe, but he's pretty honest about things in A Good Walk Spoiled.  He wins two straight US Opens, finishes a shot out of the playoff the next year, and is completely drained.  Almost lost all motivation.  Maybe it was the clubs, but he was about 35, high strung, and basically burnt out.    

that's true of most of the guys mentioned in this thread, they signed lucrative deals at the top of their careers.  Statistically, many of them had reached the top and nowhere to go but down.  Zach J is a good example.  Career capping British Open, I mean how much top level golf was left at that point.

[mocokid]

49 minutes ago, EddieEdwards said:

 

Obviously, too much offset.

 

Club Pro Guy and US Kids clubs.

Hogan to Hogan is the best example, left Macgregor after winning all of his majors and never did win any others.  So, it's not really the club change obviously in this case.  BH had reached the apex and at his age and in his physical condition, major wins were just not going to happen, even though Hogan clubs won the US open for Fleck in his playoff vs BH in 55, I think it was. 

[Corey Pavins Moustache]

2 hours ago, Greg_B said:

To me the real puzzler was the case of Corey Pavin, who managed to win the US Open playing Cleveland VAS irons, as bizarre-looking a club as any that has ever been made, then lost form after moving to PRGR.

 

Got so bad with PRGR even ditched the 'stache.  Point of no return from there.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

On 3/17/2021 at 8:20 PM, JackpotJohnny said:

Also Rory took a huge dive right after he signed with Nike. 

Was it the equipment or dollar amount of the contract?

[adeangelis]

1 hour ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

Was it the equipment or dollar amount of the contract?

Neither. It was Wozniacki

[klbrown514]

Just so I am sure about what this topic is asking.  Based on all the variables that go into winning a golf tournament:  green speed, rough length, weather, tee times, golfer physical state, golfer mental state, etc..., the one variable that can be totally controlled and is totally controlled (club specifications) is the driving force behind why a golfer wins or loses a tournament?  

Edited March 19, 2021 by klbrown514

[Scotty1140]

3 minutes ago, klbrown514 said:

Just so I am sure about what this topic is asking.  Based on all the variables that go into winning a golf tournament:  green speed, rough length, weather, tee times, golfer physical state, golfer mental state, etc..., the one variable that can be totally controlled and is totally controlled (club specifications) is the driving force behind why a golfer wins or loses a tournament?  

I think you're looking too deeply into it.

 

As the OP states, equipment changes that "seem to have corresponded" with drastic performance changes. While some changes seem to have merit to them (Bubba...Volvik...yikes), some are likely coincidence. But in the end, it's just for fun.

[klbrown514]

31 minutes ago, Scotty1140 said:

I think you're looking too deeply into it.

 

As the OP states, equipment changes that "seem to have corresponded" with drastic performance changes. While some changes seem to have merit to them (Bubba...Volvik...yikes), some are likely coincidence. But in the end, it's just for fun.

Fair enough.  I just deal with similar questions in my job and it frustrates me to no end.  I will just say that a miniscule amount, if any, of the players are statistically affected by equipment changes where the specifications are maintained.  So you are probably right and I am thinking too deeply about this.  Carry on...

[golfortennis]

26 minutes ago, klbrown514 said:

Fair enough.  I just deal with similar questions in my job and it frustrates me to no end.  I will just say that a miniscule amount, if any, of the players are statistically affected by equipment changes where the specifications are maintained.  So you are probably right and I am thinking too deeply about this.  Carry on...

 

Well I know Payne Stewart very directly attributed his struggles to the equipment change.

 

Of course, you also have the people posting here who believe that luck has never played any part in a long putt going in if it was hit by Tiger Woods.  It was all skill, so take that fwiw.

[mgoblue83]

Very few pros (male or female) that go to Callaway or PXG maintain or improve their results. 

 

I will be shocked if Rahm stays in the top 5 or even top 10 of the world golf rankings this season. 

 

 

[Body_Visions]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:55 AM, VNutz said:

Nick Watney had a promising 5 win career going when he switched from Titleist to Nike. Game immediately went sideways and has been more of a journeyman since.

 

Butch Harmon ruined him, not the clubs.

[KennyP]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Very few pros (male or female) that go to Callaway or PXG maintain or improve their results. 

 

I will be shocked if Rahm stays in the top 5 or even top 10 of the world golf rankings this season. 

 

 

 

Rahm will be interesting. Callaway signed him up as their marquee player for the post Phil era. 

[mat562]

On 3/18/2021 at 3:20 AM, JackpotJohnny said:

Also Rory took a huge dive right after he signed with Nike. 

 

He did, but it was a bit of an Ian Woosnam situation. He initially dipped in form, everyone nodded knowingly and tallied it up to the clubs, then he actually played well with the things. Woosnam had several solid years with Maruman from '88  on, and won the Masters after an initial dip in form following his move from Dunlop Maxfli; McIlroy played some awful stuff with his new Nike kit before finding form with a win at the BMW PGA Championship followed by a couple more Majors.

 

Speaking of Maruman, Curtis Stange's departure from MacGregor VIPs, as others have stated, was a bit different to Woosie's. Unlike the Welshman's transient loss of form, Strange lost form and then... well, never found it again.

[mat562]

23 hours ago, games said:

Excerpt from article on Steve Stricker's World Match Play victory in January 2001:

 

For Stricker, this is a nice comeback for a player who only five years ago was considered a rising star after two victories in 1996.With success came riches, and with riches came trouble. He got rid of his Peerless irons to sign a lucrative deal with Taylor Made, and the new equipment made him blink. A switch to Ping didn't help, and now Stricker has no club deal and likes it that way. In his bag this week were clubs made by Callaway, Cobra, Ping, Titleist and Odyssey. Worth noting is that the driver (Callaway Big Bertha, a dinosaur in today's high-tech market) and the putter (Odyssey) were the same ones he used in 1996.

 

I think it's long been taken down, but Peerless went hard negative on Stricker on their public website.  I think it was around 1999 or 2000.  The site referenced a player that was in the top 20 in the world playing Peerless irons, then dropping out of the Top 100 when he stopped.  It was a pretty bitter message.  And, I think it was right on the catalog webpage of the irons Stricker used to use...

 

    

 

Great post. Stirred some memories.

 

I remember watching a youthful Steve Stricker on what was a rare UK appearance back then, in 1996, I think, at the World Matchplay event at Wentworth. He had a green and burgundy Palmer Peerless bag and some weird, notched hosel irons that later hit the mainstream when Cobra bought the patents to the design and put them on their King Cobra II gear.

 

He looked to be a really promising player. Very solid; tidy game; putted the lights out with a Zing 2-shaped Odyssey. Then he went to Taylor Made and that was that for a long while...

Edited March 19, 2021 by mat562

[games]

32 minutes ago, mat562 said:

 

Great post. Stirred some memories.

 

I remember watching a youthful Steve Stricker on what was a rare UK appearance back then, in 1996, I think, at the World Matchplay event at Wentworth. He had a green and burgundy Palmer Peerless bag and some weird, notched hosel irons that later hit the mainstream when Cobra bought the patents to the design and put them on their King Cobra II gear.

 

He looked to be a really promising player. Very solid; tidy game; putted the lights out with a Zing 2-shaped Odyssey. Then he went to Taylor Made and that was that for a long while...

And, like @philly2kuk said, the driver went missing for years.  At that point, if the driver goes wayward, the irons and the putter aren't going to matter.  You're going to start every round +2 or +3.  Also, around his comeback in 2006 and 2007, I think Stricker admitted that back in the late 1990s, Tiger got in his head.  But that was never Stricker's game. 

 

And, BTW, he's currently in the top 25 at this week's PGA stop (not the Champions Tour, either).  Right now he's within 5 shots of the lead.  Age: 54.  

[Big GG]

1 hour ago, games said:

And, like @philly2kuk said, the driver went missing for years.  At that point, if the driver goes wayward, the irons and the putter aren't going to matter.  You're going to start every round +2 or +3.  Also, around his comeback in 2006 and 2007, I think Stricker admitted that back in the late 1990s, Tiger got in his head.  But that was never Stricker's game. 

 

And, BTW, he's currently in the top 25 at this week's PGA stop (not the Champions Tour, either).  Right now he's within 5 shots of the lead.  Age: 54.  

Actually Stricker developed the same problem Hogan did before he changed his swing. Stricker was hooking his driver so bad he couldn't get it off the ground.

[Loki]

Rory’s problem isn’t clubs or chicks or ball or whatever. His problem is passion. After he got enough money to make sure his parents were fine and then him, his desire to win went to zero. He is out collecting a check.

 

I say this as a fan of his. I like how he carries himself, how he speaks his mind, kind of like an anti-Tiger. Maybe the most talented swinger of a club in today’s game, but lacking desire.

 

If he had the passion of Spieth, he might have 10 majors by now. I will be extremely surprised if he every wins The Masters.

[mcskow]

6 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Very few pros (male or female) that go to Callaway or PXG maintain or improve their results. 

 

I will be shocked if Rahm stays in the top 5 or even top 10 of the world golf rankings this season. 

 

 

I'm wondering if the support (or lack thereof) each company provides might be an issue. We always see videos of Taylormade's tour truck and their crew. They always seem ready and willing to make any adjustments/builds for their guys on the fly at any time. I haven't noticed the same from Callaway. PXG seems focused on their R&D, manufacturing, and (high) price to stroke Parson's ego. He cares much more about himself than any of his pros under contract.

[Holy Moses]

15 hours ago, KennyP said:

There does seem to be a pattern with unsuccessful moves to Callaway.

 

Harris English

Sergio Garcia

Francesco Molinari

Matt Wallace

Daniel Berger

Xander Schauffele (to a lesser extent)

 

I have no idea why though. Nothing wrong with their equipment.

 

 

 

The ball is most likely the issue. Of those who play an OEM that makes balls and clubs (TaylorMade, Callaway, Titleist, Wilson, Srixon), I'd have to imagine that apart from Wilson, Callaway has the highest number of players that don't use their ball. They clearly had quality control issues in years past and it will be interesting to see if Callaway gets more staffers to play it if those issues have been fixed.