Club endorsements that undid their Pro

[KRAMER1997]

Fat Rory with Titleist/Jumeirah/Oakley would have 9-10 Majors by now and would have close to 40 wins on tour.

[dbleag]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:16 AM, Ironman_32 said:

For Harris English, isn't his recent resurgence from working with a new instructor? Said that at the TOC this year

 

For Charles Howell, Idk, I feel I ride for this guy just because he's been on tour for so long, so on one hand, that's gotten be something fulfilling for Callaway. He was like discount Rickie Fowler for a minute, not a household name, but fans follow him. Plus, he's been on the PGA tour his whole career, so at least he hasn't bounced back to the KF.

 

On the other hand, guy has 1 top ten in a major (which was a T-10) and two wins. Just think of how many guys have more than that, that was like BrendonTodd's year last year 

I agree and am a BIG FAN of both those guys, plus Rickie Fowler, who I'm sure played PING stuff at OSU.  

 

Honestly, Tour guys are so gifted that club choice couldn't make that much of a difference to their play, could it?

[benthegolfer]

On 3/19/2021 at 2:32 PM, mgoblue83 said:

Very few pros (male or female) that go to Callaway or PXG maintain or improve their results. 

 

I will be shocked if Rahm stays in the top 5 or even top 10 of the world golf rankings this season. 

 

 

Funnily enough it seems like both of these companies have staffers switch the whole bag (including putter, wedges, driver) when they switch. Taylormade seems to have a few more guys playing an oddball set of wedges or putter at least. 

[3whacker]

back in the day if you were a PING staffer you had to play all their irons + putter, you could play whatever putter  and ball you chose.....

 

Fast forward to present day and most equipment companies want their staffers in the whole bag and in some cases the ball too....only guys like TW and a few other can decide and play their ball of choice and putter of choice...I think all these guys can hit it big with their companies driver du jour, and they can find a ball that they can get around the course....But IMO they are all chasing SC when it comes to the flatstick....and no I dont putt with one, I use a 25yr old John Byron that looks like the original Scottsdale Anser, similar to JS putter...

 

I think if DJ and RM could use a Phantom X they would switch tomorrow 

[smashdn]

21 hours ago, dbleag said:

Honestly, Tour guys are so gifted that club choice couldn't make that much of a difference to their play, could it?

 

Probably a mental side/confidence component to it as well.

 

Tiger's (probably a bad example) irons were essentially the same with whomever equipment company he was with.

[Ironman_32]

21 hours ago, dbleag said:

I agree and am a BIG FAN of both those guys, plus Rickie Fowler, who I'm sure played PING stuff at OSU.  

 

Honestly, Tour guys are so gifted that club choice couldn't make that much of a difference to their play, could it?

I think a lot of people say that, that tour pros can play anything. However, I don't think thats the case for every player. Look at a buy like Brooks, doesn't have a club contract, prob because he wants freedom to play what he wants, and that freedom will add up to more tournament winnings than money from endorsements. 

 

For some pros though, its literally a stroke here or there thats the difference between keeping your card or not. So you want to feel the best you can standing over a shot with the club in your hand. 

 

I think clubs take a lot of blame though. Sometimes guys are flashes in the pan, sometimes they get hurt. Think of a guy like Adam Scott, not a flash in a pan, but was #1 for a little bit, he didn't switch club companies and basically when up and down. I mean, was he suppose to go a on tear after the 2013 Masters and win ten more? Than you have someone like Jason Day, was storming tournaments around 2015 and 2016, and also making a lot of putts. Ended up getting  hurt, prob wasn't the clubs at that point. 

[me05501]

On 3/28/2021 at 1:40 AM, grm24 said:

FWIW CH3 has 3 wins on the PGA Tour.

 

And his career earnings are an eye-popping figure. 

It's very very hard to win on the PGA Tour. 

[me05501]

Maybe a player who changes clubs is chasing his form and not the money? My theory is that if you looked at this puzzle empirically, you'd find that players who change gear and players who change coaches probably experienced a statistical decline in the six months leading up to the change. 

 

Changing equipment is a rather drastic move to make. I think top athletes are very conscious of the short window of their peak performance years. If they feel their game slipping away, or start comparing their game to their playing partners and realize they're losing ground, they are highly motivated to reverse the slide ASAP and not waste any of their prime earning years.

 

The money is there as much to smooth the transition as anything else. That's why the new company will often pay more than the old company was paying. 

[me05501]

I did learn some interesting endorsement facts when I became friends with the agent for some Nationwide Tour players back in the day. 

 

Lots of players do play Ping gear during their amateur years but swap quickly after going pro. The reason is that Ping's endorsement contract is a very incentive-laden contract with very low base pay. Excluding the special deal they made with Bubba recently, most players get the exact same deal.

 

The year Chris DeMarco won the Masters Ping owed him millions incentives which I'm sure they were glad to pay based on the exposure he gave them that year. I seriously wonder if they are able to buy insurance to back the incentives offered in their contacts...sort of like Hole In One insurance. The odds of a specific player winning a major, or leading the money list, or leading the tour in Strokes Gained Putting have to be very slim. 

While I don't think the *top* players are overly swayed by guaranteed club deal money, it can be incredibly helpful to a journeyman who is facing the expense of traveling to tournaments, paying his caddie, etc. 

 

I also learned that Taylor Made pretty much bought their way into driver dominance on Tour by paying "tee up money" back during the R-series days, especially as the R7 was launched. They'd give any player $2,500 or so if he had their driver in the bag on the day the club counts were conducted. That was basically helping the player break even on the week before he teed it up, which again was a huge comfort to a lot of journeymen. It wasn't long before they'd pretty much buried Titleist and the 975D/983K drivers on the weekly counts. 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

I think a lot of people say that, that tour pros can play anything. However, I don't think thats the case for every player. Look at a buy like Brooks, doesn't have a club contract, prob because he wants freedom to play what he wants, and that freedom will add up to more tournament winnings than money from endorsements. 

 

I want to say Langer still plays Hogan shafts in whatever iron heads he is playing at the time.  For some players feel is everything.

[me05501]

Just now, smashdn said:

 

I want to say Langer still plays Hogan shafts in whatever iron heads he is playing at the time.  For some players feel is everything.

 

I can totally understand why shaft endorsements aren't really a thing. That's where the rubber meets the road. Players want total flexibility, no pun intended. 

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

I did learn some interesting endorsement facts when I became friends with the agent for some Nationwide Tour players back in the day. 

 

Lots of players do play Ping gear during their amateur years but swap quickly after going pro. The reason is that Ping's endorsement contract is a very incentive-laden contract with very low base pay. Excluding the special deal they made with Bubba recently, most players get the exact same deal.

 

The year Chris DeMarco won the Masters Ping owed him millions incentives which I'm sure they were glad to pay based on the exposure he gave them that year. I seriously wonder if they are able to buy insurance to back the incentives offered in their contacts...sort of like Hole In One insurance. The odds of a specific player winning a major, or leading the money list, or leading the tour in Strokes Gained Putting have to be very slim. 

While I don't think the *top* players are overly swayed by guaranteed club deal money, it can be incredibly helpful to a journeyman who is facing the expense of traveling to tournaments, paying his caddie, etc. 

 

I also learned that Taylor Made pretty much bought their way into driver dominance on Tour by paying "tee up money" back during the R-series days, especially as the R7 was launched. They'd give any player $2,500 or so if he had their driver in the bag on the day the club counts were conducted. That was basically helping the player break even on the week before he teed it up, which again was a huge comfort to a lot of journeymen. It wasn't long before they'd pretty much buried Titleist and the 975D/983K drivers on the weekly counts. 

 

This is why I think Kisner's recent comment was not just funny, but meant to bring people back to reality.  (When asked why he played tournaments on courses he didn't think he could win on, he replied "they do pay a lot of money for 20th place.")  There are a number of guys who are worried about covering costs.  Not to mention, a guy for whom tee-up money is a big deal may be bunking two or more people to a room, driving to events....  a bit of money may make for a bit more comfortable logistics, which in turn can lead to improved performance.  It is still a job first and foremost, and these guys have bills to pay.

 

As far as top players, the McIlroy one is an interesting one.  Was it an apparel deal that included playing that equipment, or was it 50/50. Because the money most certainly swayed that decision, IMHO.  Which is not a knock on him, you'd be crazy to pass it up, but I'd be curious which way the deal was thought of by both parties.  Rahm went to Callaway this year, Garcia is no longer TM if I'm not mistaken(although is he a "top" player still?)  If money wasn't the deciding factor in these switches, what would be?  

 

That is interesting about the Ping stuff. Did not know that.

 

 

 

 

[tsecor]

Rory to TM anyone?

[me05501]

6 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

This is why I think Kisner's recent comment was not just funny, but meant to bring people back to reality.  (When asked why he played tournaments on courses he didn't think he could win on, he replied "they do pay a lot of money for 20th place.")  There are a number of guys who are worried about covering costs.  Not to mention, a guy for whom tee-up money is a big deal may be bunking two or more people to a room, driving to events....  a bit of money may make for a bit more comfortable logistics, which in turn can lead to improved performance.  It is still a job first and foremost, and these guys have bills to pay.

 

As far as top players, the McIlroy one is an interesting one.  Was it an apparel deal that included playing that equipment, or was it 50/50. Because the money most certainly swayed that decision, IMHO.  Which is not a knock on him, you'd be crazy to pass it up, but I'd be curious which way the deal was thought of by both parties.  Rahm went to Callaway this year, Garcia is no longer TM if I'm not mistaken(although is he a "top" player still?)  If money wasn't the deciding factor in these switches, what would be?  

 

That is interesting about the Ping stuff. Did not know that.

 

 

 

 

 

I think money is always part of it but rarely the entire story. There's just too much at risk IMO. 

 

There are a variety of things that could bend someone toward changing. Relationships with staff, feeling prioritized over other players, wanting to make news...I dunno. Clearly all of these guys have egos and expectations and it would be foolish not to recognize how that factors in. 

 

The take on Rahm seemed to be that Callaway needed a marquee name to backfill Mickelson's transition to the Champion's Tour, and Rahm probably enjoyed the idea of being top dog at Callaway vs. one of the dogs at TM. 

 

There was an interesting video posted earlier this year where one of the R&D guys from TM was introducing several of their staff members to the SIM2 and letting them understand how the various pieces fit together. The group dynamic was so awkward IMO. Tiger was there, but mostly silent. DJ seemed to try to assume some kind of leadership role. Rory was somewhere in the middle. Matt Wolff and Morikawa seemed younger, obviously, but also more energetic and a little less mature. 

 

I don't know how often staff players are expected to participate in those kinds of group activities, but you could clearly see that it was more enjoyable for some than others. I think that a bad dynamic in that situation would probably chafe anyone who things they deserve to be treated like a top dog all the time. Even having an equipment van guy walk to another player's hitting station before coming to yours could be seen as a slight. These guys are more high-strung and self-centered than they are paid to let on. 

 

[me05501]

Remember several years ago when Rory was leading the Tour Championship through the third round, then showed up and shot 80 or something on Sunday? Right before he changed club contracts? Yeah...that was my fault. 

 

My wife and I were having dinner that Saturday night at Bones Steakhouse in Buckhead. I had just returned from the bathroom and had spotted Rory and his crew eating in the other room. 

 

I told my wife "Hey baby, the number one golfer in the world is eating right around the corner." 

 

She said "Tiger Woods? OMG where??"

 

"No, Rory McIlroy. Anyway, I'm going to try to find a chance to say hello." 

 

As we were leaving, Rory was waiting out front for his MB courtesy car to be brought around. I said hello and offered a handshake and told him "Play hard tomorrow!"

 

The rest, as they say, is history. 

 

 

[GSDriver]

David Duval to Nike...went from #1 in world, to Golf Channel announcer....

[Old Tom Morris]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I want to say Langer still plays Hogan shafts in whatever iron heads he is playing at the time.  For some players feel is everything.

Langer was playing the same exact Hogan shafts that he had in his Wilson Irons in the early 1980s for years.

[Ironman_32]

36 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

I think money is always part of it but rarely the entire story. There's just too much at risk IMO. 

 

There are a variety of things that could bend someone toward changing. Relationships with staff, feeling prioritized over other players, wanting to make news...I dunno. Clearly all of these guys have egos and expectations and it would be foolish not to recognize how that factors in. 

 

The take on Rahm seemed to be that Callaway needed a marquee name to backfill Mickelson's transition to the Champion's Tour, and Rahm probably enjoyed the idea of being top dog at Callaway vs. one of the dogs at TM. 

 

There was an interesting video posted earlier this year where one of the R&D guys from TM was introducing several of their staff members to the SIM2 and letting them understand how the various pieces fit together. The group dynamic was so awkward IMO. Tiger was there, but mostly silent. DJ seemed to try to assume some kind of leadership role. Rory was somewhere in the middle. Matt Wolff and Morikawa seemed younger, obviously, but also more energetic and a little less mature. 

 

I don't know how often staff players are expected to participate in those kinds of group activities, but you could clearly see that it was more enjoyable for some than others. I think that a bad dynamic in that situation would probably chafe anyone who things they deserve to be treated like a top dog all the time. Even having an equipment van guy walk to another player's hitting station before coming to yours could be seen as a slight. These guys are more high-strung and self-centered than they are paid to let on. 

 

I think people forget that for PGA tours, there are a lot of ways to make money through endorsements and outings. On the other hand, PGA tours have to pay for everything, so they say what ever a guy makes on course he takes home 40% after paying expenses, taxes and caddy. 

 

It's like they say, a handful of guys on tour are chasing history, the rest are chasing dollars. So for most, it doesn't matter if they win the money or an endorsement gives it to them. Once you have the money, maybe it affects the way you play and practice. Might leave a day later to spend time with the family, or take more days off, you're set really. 

 

I think ego factors in, but probably not as much. Idk, does Wolfe get mad if Morikawa gets something before him? Maybe go win some majors and see what happens right. 

[Whit1969]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:44 PM, jokerusn said:

Mickelson wins his first masters, signs with Callaway and wins 4 more majors.  

You could argue that Brooks went from Titleist to Nike and started winning majors.

The  problem with that analogy is that the only nike club in the bag for Brooks when he won his majors was a Vapor iron.  Mizuno JPX irons, Scotty putter, Taylormade woods, and Titleist wedges were the rest of the clubs in the bag.

[Whit1969]

4 hours ago, me05501 said:

I did learn some interesting endorsement facts when I became friends with the agent for some Nationwide Tour players back in the day. 

 

Lots of players do play Ping gear during their amateur years but swap quickly after going pro. The reason is that Ping's endorsement contract is a very incentive-laden contract with very low base pay. Excluding the special deal they made with Bubba recently, most players get the exact same deal.

 

The year Chris DeMarco won the Masters Ping owed him millions incentives which I'm sure they were glad to pay based on the exposure he gave them that year. I seriously wonder if they are able to buy insurance to back the incentives offered in their contacts...sort of like Hole In One insurance. The odds of a specific player winning a major, or leading the money list, or leading the tour in Strokes Gained Putting have to be very slim. 

While I don't think the *top* players are overly swayed by guaranteed club deal money, it can be incredibly helpful to a journeyman who is facing the expense of traveling to tournaments, paying his caddie, etc. 

 

I also learned that Taylor Made pretty much bought their way into driver dominance on Tour by paying "tee up money" back during the R-series days, especially as the R7 was launched. They'd give any player $2,500 or so if he had their driver in the bag on the day the club counts were conducted. That was basically helping the player break even on the week before he teed it up, which again was a huge comfort to a lot of journeymen. It wasn't long before they'd pretty much buried Titleist and the 975D/983K drivers on the weekly counts. 

DiMarco never won the Masters, only finished second to Woods in 2005 and T6 in 2004.

[Ironman_32]

6 minutes ago, Whit1969 said:

DiMarco never won the Masters, only finished second to Woods in 2005 and T6 in 2004.

Came off a 2nd place in 2004 PGA, lost in a playoff to Vijay. 

 

Also came in second to Tiger at the 06 British...in another world, DiMarco could have had three majors there, and been that generations Zach Johnson.

[me05501]

6 minutes ago, Whit1969 said:

DiMarco never won the Masters, only finished second to Woods in 2005 and T6 in 2004.

 

Absolutely correct. That playoff year was part of an epic season for Dimarco, IIRC

 

https://golf.com/news/why-chris-dimarcos-2005-loss-to-tiger-was-the-biggest-masters-heartbreak-ever/

[getair23]

3 hours ago, GSDriver said:

David Duval to Nike...went from #1 in world, to Golf Channel announcer....

He won the Open with Nike irons.  Signing with Scratch is what truly did him in.  Unless it was his deal with Jenny Craig that changed him physically and mentally?

[Christosterone]

Monty won the order of merit with Yonex clubs at age 42 iirc...

 

great players can shoot par with shovels to paraphrase tom Kite...

 

and, yes, I’m calling Monty great...favorite swing to ever grace planet earth

 

-chris

[GSDriver]

7 hours ago, getair23 said:

He won the Open with Nike irons.  Signing with Scratch is what truly did him in.  Unless it was his deal with Jenny Craig that changed him physically and mentally?

He went to Nike driver first, couldn't find a fairway with a map.

[grm24]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:28 PM, Lefty_13 said:

Bubba to Volvik almost ended his career 

Not really. Bubba had a whole boatload of personal issues going on during his switch to the Volvik ball in 2017. Easy to find that information. Bubba switched back to the Pro V1 in 2018 after one season with Volvik and won 3 times. Was it the ball of a better time personally?

 

He hasn't sniffed winning since 2018. Outside of his 3 wins in 2018 Bubba has 1 other top 3 finish since the start of 2017. So is that all because of the Pro V1? Or is it that professional golf is just ridiculously hard to win at especially when one is continually dealing with issues that have nothing to do with golf? 

Edited April 1, 2021 by grm24

[grm24]

9 hours ago, getair23 said:

He won the Open with Nike irons.  Signing with Scratch is what truly did him in.  Unless it was his deal with Jenny Craig that changed him physically and mentally?

Duval also had multiple health issues after his Open Championship including a battle with vertigo. Also a breakup with a longtime girlfriend. Fairly simple to find that information about Duval's issues. Equipment changes can be a sole and simple assumption to make for many when players change gear and struggle but might ignore that there may be other issues involved. Most people though assign it to one thing and will not delve into what other issues there might have been.

Edited April 1, 2021 by grm24

[me05501]

I was at Augusta National on Arnie's last day as a competitor. It rained a ton on Friday so they were finishing up Friday's round on Saturday morning. My friend and I traipsed through all the muddy pine straw to get to the 18th tee and watch Arnie play his last tee shot in the Masters. 

 

Duval came through in a group that I believe included Els and one other. Among the 20-odd drives we watched on 18 DD's was the one that stood out to me because it was launched at what seemed like an impossible angle. Compared to the others it looked like it went straight up before flattening out and carrying a long, long way. 

 

I've always heard that the pros hit drivers much higher and wedges much lower than you'd ever expect. That was certainly true of Duval's drive.  

[tsecor]

a lot of high level pros play a badged iron forged by other companies......for example, Tiger  (Rory rumors as well) played many brands that were not actualy forged by that said brand.....i think the name on the club means nothing for the most part but in some cases with lower level players, i can see a switch being a real thing that led to bad play

[mosesgolf]

Curtis Strange fell off the map quickly after his change to an obscure high end Japanese golf brand.