"Lag" my first step for powerful swing progression

[chipa]

31 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

chipa - How confident are you that your clubhead speed was 128 mph or anywhere even close to that figure 20 years ago? 

 

Do you realize that today (forget about 20 years ago) that only two PGA Tour Pros average clubhead speed of 128 mph or higher - Bryson DeChambeau and Cameron Champ?  Only three PGA Tour Pros ever even reached 128 mph in dozens of attempts (Bryson DeChambeau, Cameron Champ & Will Gordon)! Even Rory McIlroy never achieved 128 mph clubhead speed in 86 attempts, yet you claim to have done so! 

 

It is highly unlikely that someone aged 35-36 years old (having already lost some muscle compared to someone five to ten years younger) - and with 3 fused vertebrae that stands only 5' 5" tall with normal length arms for that height - to achieve 128 mph clubhead speed. 

 

 

 

I already stated I measured it at a golf store.

 

Next.

[aenemated]

Man, this thread is precisely why nerds like me made the internet.

 

Well done, yall. 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I already stated I measured it at a golf store.

 

Next.

I’m quite sure you hit much farther than the typical golfer, and that you had a very fast swing in the past.

 

However, I’m also doubtful that golf stores had reasonably accurate launch monitors 20 years ago.

 

My son swings in the 124 mph range, is not short, and is relatively fit at 20.

 

Not doubting what you had measured, just doubting the accuracy of the machines use to measure you swing speed? I have a Flightscope and measure my swing to 105-109, and my son to 120-126 with drivers.

 

128 is quite fast.

[chipa]

7 minutes ago, Lincoln_Arcadia said:

I’m quite sure you hit much farther than the typical golfer, and that you had a very fast swing in the past.

 

However, I’m also doubtful that golf stores had reasonably accurate launch monitors 20 years ago.

 

My son swings in the 124 mph range, is not short, and is relatively fit at 20.

 

Not doubting what you had measured, just doubting the accuracy of the machines use to measure you swing speed? I have a Flightscope and measure my swing to 105-109, and my son to 120-126 with drivers.

 

128 is quite fast.

 

I have recently swung my 5 wood at 115 and posted a video of me swinging my 6 iron at 100 at 55.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I have recently swung my 5 wood at 115 and posted a video of me swinging my 6 iron at 100 at 55.

Not doubting you hit far, just the equipment 20 years ago.

[Krt22]

40 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I have recently swung my 5 wood at 115 and posted a video of me swinging my 6 iron at 100 at 55.

You are using a 15+ year old device that was never popular or accurate to measure a swing where you didn't actually hit a ball.  Im sorry but you are delusional if you think that you swing the club faster than PGA tour pros and can actually hit the ball reasonably straight at the same exact speed. Plenty of people can swing speed sticks very fast and drop considerably (10-20mph) once they actually have to hit a ball. 

[Bocaji]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

You are using a 15+ year old device that was never popular or accurate to measure a swing where you didn't actually hit a ball.  Im sorry but you are delusional if you think that you swing the club faster than PGA tour pros and can actually hit the ball reasonably straight at the same exact speed. Plenty of people can swing speed sticks very fast and drop considerably (10-20mph) once they actually have to hit a ball. 

What I tried to say earlier. None of that matters until there is a ball there

[GreatStrike]

6 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I already stated I measured it at a golf store.

 

Next.

 

Are you suggesting that because you measured your clubhead speed at some golf store (way back almost a generation ago) that the measuring device used was accurate? Is that your argument for which you claim authentication of your 128 mph clubhead speed at age 35 after having three fused vertebrae in your 5' 5" frame - when no one on the PGA Tour was achieving anywhere even remotely close to 128 mph clubhead speed....and only three current PGA Tour Pros have achieved 128 mph clubhead speed nowadays with many dozens of attempts? How do you explain that? You can't! Not from a size standpoint - not from an age standpoint - not from a health standpoint - not from a swing technique standpoint. It simply does not compute...  

 

Are you sure you don't want to reconsider and restate your proclamation? 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[chipa]

For those who missed my post I've already explained I more than once that I calibrated my swing radar with out local club pro at 110 mph. I consistently swing my 6 iron in the low 90's. My driver speed now is probably around 110 on average if not more but not 128 mph I did that 15-20 years ago. 

 

I will also point out that pros don't vigorously weight train the upper body, in fact I expect I'm stronger in my upper body than probably any tour pro. I'm sure this has helped me with my clubhead speed.

[GreatStrike]

On 3/29/2021 at 5:24 PM, chipa said:

I'm not promoting my technique... If I was promoting my particular technique I wouldn't be interested in making changes to my swing.  

 

Yes, sound technique is very important.

 

Whatcha think of this saddle-up technique?

   

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

24 minutes ago, chipa said:

For those who missed my post I've already explained I more than once that I calibrated my swing radar with out local club pro at 110 mph. I consistently swing my 6 iron in the low 90's. My driver speed now is probably around 110 on average if not more but not 128 mph I did that 15-20 years ago. 

 

I will also point out that pros don't vigorously weight train the upper body, in fact I expect I'm stronger in my upper body than probably any tour pro. I'm sure this has helped me with my clubhead speed.

 

Ya really think so?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Nail_It

[chipa]

The dead lift is not upper body, although I have deadlifted 365 lbs when I lifted heavy.

[jonsnow]

7 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I already stated I measured it at a golf store.

 

Next.

Sounds pretty confident to me...

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

The dead lift is not upper body, although I have deadlifted 365 lbs when I lifted heavy.

I believe dead lifting is for the muscles holding up the shoulders and arms to prevent them from falling to the ground after lifting such a heavy weight? Hahaha.

[Frankensteins Monster]

8 hours ago, Lincoln_Arcadia said:

I believe dead lifting is for the muscles holding up the shoulders and arms to prevent them from falling to the ground after lifting such a heavy weight? Hahaha.

Deadlift is a whole body exercise, but the stress, when done correctly, is on everything low back and below. Shoulders, traps, arms, hands are there for nothing but stabilizing.

[Frankensteins Monster]

I read this whole thread. All I kept thinking of, who cares? Who cares what he claims his speed was? Do I think it was anything close to 128mph with a ball, absolutely not. Do I care that he believes it is? Absolutely not. If he wants to believe it, who cares? We all lie to ourselves for whatever reason. I'm sure every single person in here has exaggerated their longest drive, closest non-hole in one, longest putt made. Look at Sergio. He never hit a bad shot that was his fault.

[chipa]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:21 PM, Scyukon said:

Just joined the forum today, and found this thread. All i can say is Chipa is ripped! I’m 55 as well, was well built up.mid 20s, but now after 30 years of life about 70 lbs overweight, and so to see how ripped Chipa is, is awesome! Congrats, you are one disciplined individual!

 

i too am a civil engineer and have tried every swing under the sun over the last 40 years and still chasing lag. Was doing different versions of Mike Austin over the years (first Mike Dunaway, then Dan Shauger) and had some success distance wise, but lacked direction control to score effectively so abandoned it.

 

Oddly enough, the most powerful and accurate swing i ever had was 20 years ago with a homemade version that looked much like Matthew Wolff does today. I very stupidly gave up on it because it looked so goofy and i wanted my swing to look “normal”. I wish the phrase “swing your swing” was around then. So keep up the good fight Chipa in your search for more distance.

 

My newest attempt is to learn ground forces using the zen GRF board which is due to arrive today. I have never seen ground force explained in this manner and now understand why i have been straitening up at impact (one instructor used the phrase “humping the goat” lol). At any rate, may be something for you to study Chipa as you are obviously a very strong dude so if you can learn a bit more about kinetic sequencing you can get back to ripping some 309 yarders. Good luck!

 

I wanted to add that in my opinion and experience there is a lot of force to be generated by the ground that can be generated to the clubhead. The problem from my experience is when I focus on a body centered swing with my feet well connected then my hands rarely "get connected", thus losing an important connection that has the flexibility and mechanical advantage to add significant clubhead speed. However, when I focus on my hands too much I could swing on ice w/o falling for the lack of energy generated by my legs.

 

When I am swinging well, the connection with my feet to the ground and my hands with the club are the two major impressions I have, and it gives me supreme confidence to swing hard and hit the ball straight.

 

My recommendation in order to employ the feet and hands correctly is to establish the legs first in an athletic stance which means that if someone came and pushed on your lead shoulder you would naturally be able to resist. You would be surprised how many novice golfers stand w/o bracing their legs. I am currently teaching my daughters and a friend how to play golf (as best as I can of course) and when I have done this with my golfing buddy he all but fell down at first with just a slight push on his lead shoulder.

 

Second, with a solid stance established then line up the elbows in front of the body to the target. This is of utmost importance to be able to connect the arms and feel the space needed between them to take maximum advantage of the mechanical advantage it provides. I would say this part is the most difficult for me that I have not mastered as of yet, it does take practice. However, having the elbows in front of my body lined up is a good start to getting the "connection" I want.

 

Last, the hands grip the club with the wrist close together and slightly forward of center. Most amateurs myself included struggle with a faulty grip, so this methodology can help fix that be having the grip be subject to the legs and arm positions then swing within the constraints it creates. This is the concept Moe Norman used to describe his swing.  To start the swing I rotate the left hand in with the left shoulder.

 

Since you are an engineer I thought you might be interested in a couple of articles that explain how energy is created and stored in the muscles in tendons to be released later on. This is for tennis but is relevant to the golf swing. The kinetic chain models like Dr. Sasho Mackenzies don't have this feature, which might lead someone to believe the swing is just a series of torquing movement about the various joints, it is not of course. This concept is essential to understanding the importance of the feet and legs in generating clubhead speed.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445225/

 

https://playsmarttennis.com/2020/02/11/biomechanics-of-the-stroke-transfer-of-potential-to-the-kinetic-energy/

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

 

I wanted to add that in my opinion and experience there is a lot of force to be generated by the ground that can be generated to the clubhead. The problem from my experience is when I focus on a body centered swing with my feet well connected then my hands rarely "get connected", thus losing an important connection that has the flexibility and mechanical advantage to add significant clubhead speed. However, when I focus on my hands too much I could swing on ice w/o falling for the lack of energy generated by my legs.

 

When I am swinging well, the connection with my feet to the ground and my hands with the club are the two major impressions I have, and it gives me supreme confidence to swing hard and hit the ball straight.

 

My recommendation in order to employ the feet and hands correctly is to establish the legs first in an athletic stance which means that if someone came and pushed on your lead shoulder you would naturally be able to resist. You would be surprised how many novice golfers stand w/o bracing their legs. I am currently teaching my daughters and a friend how to play golf (as best as I can of course) and when I have done this with my golfing buddy he all but fell down at first with just a slight push on his lead shoulder.

 

Second, with a solid stance established then line up the elbows in front of the body to the target. This is of utmost importance to be able to connect the arms and feel the space needed between them to take maximum advantage of the mechanical advantage it provides. I would say this part is the most difficult for me that I have not mastered as of yet, it does take practice. However, having the elbows in front of my body lined up is a good start to getting the "connection" I want.

 

Last, the hands grip the club with the wrist close together and slightly forward of center. Most amateurs myself included struggle with a faulty grip, so this methodology can help fix that be having the grip be subject to the legs and arm positions then swing within the constraints it creates. This is the concept Moe Norman used to describe his swing.  To start the swing I rotate the left hand in with the left shoulder.

 

Since you are an engineer I thought you might be interested in a couple of articles that explain how energy is created and stored in the muscles in tendons to be released later on. This is for tennis but is relevant to the golf swing. The kinetic chain models like Dr. Sasho Mackenzies don't have this feature, which might lead someone to believe the swing is just a series of torquing movement about the various joints, it is not of course. This concept is essential to understanding the importance of the feet and legs in generating clubhead speed.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445225/

 

https://playsmarttennis.com/2020/02/11/biomechanics-of-the-stroke-transfer-of-potential-to-the-kinetic-energy/

I think the Down Under board would help you to work on your arms/wrists without losing the connection to the ground. 

[chipa]

16 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I think the Down Under board would help you to work on your arms/wrists without losing the connection to the ground. 

 

It quite possibly could but I don't think my legs are the problem, I have seen plenty of pro swings with a reverse tilt and a bent left leg at impact. When I am swinging well I feel a a lot of pressure in my feet and legs. My issue is mostly with my hands. I believe the problem is my heavy weightlifting hurts my shoulder flexibility as well as my muscle memory from good swings.

 

However, since posting my swings and reading the comments I have weakened my left hand grip as well as separated my hands a little to fit my natural tendency(probably due to my lower right shoulder as well as poor shoulder flexibility) and my right hand is not regripping so I really believe this may be what is going to help me improve.

[TheDeanAbides]

18 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

It quite possibly could but I don't think my legs are the problem, I have seen plenty of pro swings with a reverse tilt and a bent left leg at impact. When I am swinging well I feel a a lot of pressure in my feet and legs. My issue is mostly with my hands. I believe the problem is my heavy weightlifting hurts my shoulder flexibility as well as my muscle memory from good swings.

 

However, since posting my swings and reading the comments I have weakened my left hand grip as well as separated my hands a little to fit my natural tendency(probably due to my lower right shoulder as well as poor shoulder flexibility) and my right hand is not regripping so I really believe this may be what is going to help me improve.

You said that when you focus on your arms you stop using your lower body correctly. 

[chipa]

8 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You said that when you focus on your arms you stop using your lower body correctly. 

 

Yes this has been the case in the past. But since starting this thread and weakening my left hand grip now I am able to keep my hands connected a lot better.  I posted a second video where my right hand did not come off the grip and my finish was much more stable which I attribute to not having to slide my hips so much in order to prevent the clubface from shutting. Also, since then I have been putting my arms more in front of my body like Hogan recommended which I never did before because his book always talked about the arms being dead straight, which made me get so tight. Then I saw a video just recently where Hogan starts with his arms slightly bent and what appears to be his left elbow pointed out at the target a little, which I thought he said not to do. Anyway, the recent weakening of the left grip and the elbow positions have helped me get my arms and hands better connected than ever before. I wouldn't have gotten to this point w/o Golfwrx. Here is a video of Hogan that i referenced.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

15 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Yes this has been the case in the past. But since starting this thread and weakening my left hand grip now I am able to keep my hands connected a lot better.  I posted a second video where my right hand did not come off the grip and my finish was much more stable which I attribute to not having to slide my hips so much in order to prevent the clubface from shutting. Also, since then I have been putting my arms more in front of my body like Hogan recommended which I never did before because his book always talked about the arms being dead straight, which made me get so tight. Then I saw a video just recently where Hogan starts with his arms slightly bent and what appears to be his left elbow pointed out at the target a little, which I thought he said not to do. Anyway, the recent weakening of the left grip and the elbow positions have helped me get my arms and hands better connected than ever before. I wouldn't have gotten to this point w/o Golfwrx. Here is a video of Hogan that i referenced.

 

 

Fair play. I hope it works for you, buddy. 

 

I love that video of Hogan. It shows how fluid his swing was - something that's hard to notice at full speed because of how savage his swing is. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[chipa]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Fair play. I hope it works for you, buddy. 

 

I love that video of Hogan. It shows how fluid his swing was - something is hard to notice at full speed because of how savage his swing is. 

 

Thanks buddy.

 

I have heard that one needs to stick with one instructor to get results, but from what I've seen lots of good golfers copied other swings and the results were similar but different swings so I have taken the same approach and been looking at everything and anything out there. The best for me have been focus on the hands and arms, like Manuel De La Torres instructional video where he talks about how to keep the wrist relaxed(a major fault of mine) and to get the club pointed back soon on the takeaway, and Bobby Jones particular way of holding his hands at address with his arms bent a little to the most recent video of Hogan that with the weak left hand grip I think may help me get to the next level, which is what all golfers strive to do no matter their hc.

[clevited]

@chipaI want to apologize for how many in this forum are behaving.  Instead of an enlightening conversation, they poke fun, or refute your claims calling you a troll.  I for one am one of those mid cappers with a less than optimal swing that can really move a club and the feel of "lag", while taboo in golf teaching circles, still can describe a movement that seems to net more raw speed.  You should not get ridiculed for stating your speed and such, even if it is or isn't measured wrong.  We have all done it as most of us don't have access to quality measuring equipment and only have what we measure on the course or range or with inexpensive devices.  My suggestion to you though, if you really want to know where you are at is to get a swing caddie.  They measure ball speed quite accurately and are less than 200 bucks used if you look around.  May even nab the first iteration for under a 100.  

 

Anyways, regarding your feel of lag.  I have experimented with my swing for years just trying to see if I could Bubba my way to a unique swing that worked for me.  One that married maximum speed with accuracy and consistency.  I have had mixed results and currently working to fix it to be a bit less "unique" but it has been an enlightening adventure regardless.  Lag wise, I found my fastest speeds ever came when I really let my arms be loose and feel the change in direction at the top of my swing really narrow the angle of the club shaft and my forearms before I started down.  I felt like I was trying to throw the club as far as possible at the target.  Regardless of my swing flaws, I can still approach 190 ball speed on a particularly good day as it stands today.  I 100% believe you could be where you think you are, but I think also 100%, it is good to find a good tool to measure improvements so you can be sure what you are doing is having the desired results.

 

Anyways, good luck to you and don't let these often jealous and baiting posters in here get you down.

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Thanks buddy.

 

I have heard that one needs to stick with one instructor to get results, but from what I've seen lots of good golfers copied other swings and the results were similar but different swings so I have taken the same approach and been looking at everything and anything out there. The best for me have been focus on the hands and arms, like Manuel De La Torres instructional video where he talks about how to keep the wrist relaxed(a major fault of mine) and to get the club pointed back soon on the takeaway, and Bobby Jones particular way of holding his hands at address with his arms bent a little to the most recent video of Hogan that with the weak left hand grip I think may help me get to the next level, which is what all golfers strive to do no matter their hc.

I don't think there's any reason not to pick up things from different teachers, but the danger of that is mismatching swing philosophies. 

[Scyukon]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I wanted to add that in my opinion and experience there is a lot of force to be generated by the ground that can be generated to the clubhead. The problem from my experience is when I focus on a body centered swing with my feet well connected then my hands rarely "get connected", thus losing an important connection that has the flexibility and mechanical advantage to add significant clubhead speed. However, when I focus on my hands too much I could swing on ice w/o falling for the lack of energy generated by my legs.

 

When I am swinging well, the connection with my feet to the ground and my hands with the club are the two major impressions I have, and it gives me supreme confidence to swing hard and hit the ball straight.

 

My recommendation in order to employ the feet and hands correctly is to establish the legs first in an athletic stance which means that if someone came and pushed on your lead shoulder you would naturally be able to resist. You would be surprised how many novice golfers stand w/o bracing their legs. I am currently teaching my daughters and a friend how to play golf (as best as I can of course) and when I have done this with my golfing buddy he all but fell down at first with just a slight push on his lead shoulder.

 

Second, with a solid stance established then line up the elbows in front of the body to the target. This is of utmost importance to be able to connect the arms and feel the space needed between them to take maximum advantage of the mechanical advantage it provides. I would say this part is the most difficult for me that I have not mastered as of yet, it does take practice. However, having the elbows in front of my body lined up is a good start to getting the "connection" I want.

 

Last, the hands grip the club with the wrist close together and slightly forward of center. Most amateurs myself included struggle with a faulty grip, so this methodology can help fix that be having the grip be subject to the legs and arm positions then swing within the constraints it creates. This is the concept Moe Norman used to describe his swing.  To start the swing I rotate the left hand in with the left shoulder.

 

Since you are an engineer I thought you might be interested in a couple of articles that explain how energy is created and stored in the muscles in tendons to be released later on. This is for tennis but is relevant to the golf swing. The kinetic chain models like Dr. Sasho Mackenzies don't have this feature, which might lead someone to believe the swing is just a series of torquing movement about the various joints, it is not of course. This concept is essential to understanding the importance of the feet and legs in generating clubhead speed.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445225/

 

https://playsmarttennis.com/2020/02/11/biomechanics-of-the-stroke-transfer-of-potential-to-the-kinetic-energy/

Thank you for this i will check it out. It looks like Fedex is finally going to be delivering my Zen GRF training system by 5 pm today so will be starting off on my ground reaction force journey today or tomorrow although i am now very fascinated as well about the Juju swing training. When i look at my last attempt from last summer i did not see a lot of ground force so excited about the potential of both.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Scyukon

[chipa]

To all those who somehow think I am promoting my particular swing method please see the below video where I have made changes to my swing based on comments. As you can see I did not regrip the club and don't have as much hip slide like in the first video. I am trying to weaken my grip little by little as I realize the club is shut at the top but this will take time. The club was my 6 iron and was about 85% at 90 mph. What I am promoting is feeling the resistance to the arm/club rotation, which a lot of other instructors have talked about in one way or another. MLDT said "feel the club".

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by chipa

[Scyukon]

Wow looks like you have some good whip into that. Loved the impact sound. Kudos keep going!

[chipa]

3 minutes ago, Scyukon said:

Wow looks like you have some good whip into that. Loved the impact sound. Kudos keep going!

 

That's really the whole purpose of this thread is that I believe feeling the resistance of the club to rotating is important no doubt because it loads the tendons and the muscles in the arms, etc.. I'm not promoting anything else about my swing, just that part.

Edited March 31, 2021 by chipa

[PureStrikes54]

I respect you for posting your swing but those swing mechanics and method you are promoting would lead to LESS not MORE speed. 

 

I'm no instructor, just a decent player, and a bunch of thing I see off the bat robbing you of speed:

Restricted flat hip turn, narrow arms with almost no pivot, excess forearm rotation which leads to the club being over set/laid off/out of position, right arm is well below the left and over bent, pressure trace has to be way off because of the lack of load into the right hip. 

 

At left arm parallel in the backswing Rory has turned 50 degrees further than you, has way more width, proper shoulder and hip tilts, proper load into the right hip, and the club in a position to shallow vs. steepen coming down. 

 

Honestly a couple online lessons with Monte or another reputable instructor could do wonders for your game.