Rory working with Pete Cowen

[bladehunter]

11 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

he was 1st in SG tee to green in 2019, 6th in 2020 and is 18th this year. I'm not sure he needs a swing overhaul. No one wants to hit it bad but obviously he is an elite ball-striker and the stats show it. 

 

The strokes gained stuff is just math. The closer to the hole you are the less ability you have to separate yourself. If I told you that you had to gain .1 strokes gained on the approach compared to a random pga tour pro, would you rather do that with a 100 yard wedge shot or a 200 yard approach? You might have to hit it to a couple feet from 100 yards to do that versus within 20 feet from 200. 

 

This concept though about the stats is important because it changes perceptions of players. People perceive his putting to be so bad because of how good his ball-striking is and the opportunities he gets. If he had pga tour average ball-striking, his putting metrics would be better without changing anything putting wise but he wouldn't be as good at golf. 

 

Also he has a family now. I just don't know how realistic it is for him to compete with guys who are devoting their lives to golf when he is not. It's just a reality of the situation. Probably not going to compete with the 23 yr old kid who can grind all day 12 hours a day who doesn't have the same life responsibilities you have. 

Yep.  Agree.  This bares out to be true. I saw  it myself when I began using the strokes gained spreadsheet for putting a couple seasons ago before my putting stroke rebuild.  The better I hit it , the worse the stat got for putting.  As in low rounds had terrible strokes gained putting stats.  
 

Until the rebuild when I gained 2 shots a round over what I was doing , but still remained -2 ish a round overall.     It’s at this point i stopped keeping the stat.  Or more accurately stopped looking at it.  I was a guy focused on improving my putting , and looking at a constant 2 shots a round lost kept saying to me “ you still suck at putting “.  And I knew I didn’t.  I was just hitting it close and not converting enough as my 3 putt stat had gone to near  none .  It took me a while to figure out that all I’d have to do is hit it farther from the hole and the putting stats would tell me I was gaining strokes 🤦‍♂️.

 

point ?  Not sure exactly.  But I’d bet that the stat yelling “ you suck “ doesn’t help.  I’m not sure who it’s helps. I get the stats use for measurement, but only  against the rest of your own game.  As a comparison to other players it seems a farce. You’d have to compare alll parts of each players game  to get anywhere near a fair comparison. And most don’t do that when talking about putting.  

[bladehunter]

13 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Im pretty sure the stats say the opposite, the shorter put is almost always easier unless it's a very extreme slope

Sure. But you have to make alot of them .  If you don’t you’re loosing strokes.  
 

example. Have a round hitting say 15 greens , with most or all gaining strokes in proximity.... don’t make any 1 putts , you’re loosing a lot of strokes putting.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by bladehunter

[Londoner]

1 hour ago, Divot License said:

@Londoner You're a long way from London lol

 

I had one lesson years ago at his academy with one of his team. I asked about methodology and he told me its more a philosophy rather than a methodology. There are thinks Pete likes to happen in the swing (eg loading the shoulders) but it isn't a do it this exact way, but more do it the way your body allows but just make sure it gets done. 

Have been in Rotherham 30 years now. She wanted to come home to Yorkshire. In Thorpe Hesley. 

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Yep.  Agree.  This bares out to be true. I saw  it myself when I began using the strokes gained spreadsheet for putting a couple seasons ago before my putting stroke rebuild.  The better I hit it , the worse the stat got for putting.  As in low rounds had terrible strokes gained putting stats.  
 

Until the rebuild when I gained 2 shots a round over what I was doing , but still remained -2 ish a round overall.     It’s at this point i stopped keeping the stat.  Or more accurately stopped looking at it.  I was a guy focused on improving my putting , and looking at a constant 2 shots a round lost kept saying to me “ you still suck at putting “.  And I knew I didn’t.  I was just hitting it close and not converting enough as my 3 putt stat had gone to near  none .  It took me a while to figure out that all I’d have to do is hit it farther from the hole and the putting stats would tell me I was gaining strokes 🤦‍♂️.

 

point ?  Not sure exactly.  But I’d bet that the stat yelling “ you suck “ doesn’t help.  I’m not sure who it’s helps. I get the stats use for measurement, but only  against the rest of your own game.  As a comparison to other players it seems a farce. You’d have to compare alll parts of each players game  to get anywhere near a fair comparison. And most don’t do that when talking about putting.  

 

 

That's why I'm trying to make sure the sheet I'm building not only encompasses SG for putts, but I also want to know the make percentage from different distances, avg 1st putt, etc.  SG is valuable, but not in a vacuum.  Thanks to pinhigh27 for illustrating that.

 

The one thing I would caution you about is that the pros SG is against the field each week, whereas we are really just up against a table of values. May seem minor, and some may say it comes out in the wash, but we are talking about a difference.  Not to mention they always talk about the rank of the player, not the raw SG.  If you are positive .5 SG putting, but it ranks 85th, is that good or bad?  

[MattyO1984]

No sign, so far, of a bump for Rory! Easy give up on the 1st, gave away another hole with a 3 putt and then followed that with hitting his drive into someone’s swimming pool.

[AndersUK]

RM needs someone like Cowen or Butch because they aren't afraid to upset the player by telling them what they need to know rather than what they want to hear.  In addition to this they have a unique ability to really kick start the confidence machine that sometimes lays dormant in these ultra-talented players.  If Cowen can't get him on track then can't see anyone else succeeding with him.

[gvogel]

4 hours ago, Londoner said:

I totally agree but that fire seems to be missing in Rory at the moment.

He needs to get pudgy again, with an edge!

[Frankensteins Monster]

Looks like he changed something in his set-up. His back angle looks different.

[bladehunter]

36 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

 

That's why I'm trying to make sure the sheet I'm building not only encompasses SG for putts, but I also want to know the make percentage from different distances, avg 1st putt, etc.  SG is valuable, but not in a vacuum.  Thanks to pinhigh27 for illustrating that.

 

The one thing I would caution you about is that the pros SG is against the field each week, whereas we are really just up against a table of values. May seem minor, and some may say it comes out in the wash, but we are talking about a difference.  Not to mention they always talk about the rank of the player, not the raw SG.  If you are positive .5 SG putting, but it ranks 85th, is that good or bad?  

Yep. All true.  It’s hard for me to digest sometimes , especially in the heat of the moment, after a poor round etc.  Context isn’t put with stats often enough in my opinion 

[bladehunter]

10 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Looks like he changed something in his set-up. His back angle looks different.

Yep and he aimed  farther left on that par 3 tee shot than I’ve ever seen him do. Then wipes way across it.  That’s new for sure. 

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Sure. But you have to make alot of them .  If you don’t you’re loosing strokes.  
 

example. Have a round hitting say 15 greens , with most or all gaining strokes in proximity.... don’t make any 1 putts , you’re loosing a lot of strokes putting.  

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that because you didn't actually make a point. Yes you have to make a lot of 3 footers, especially since those are statistically far easier than 6 footers, for ams and pros. That is the intent of running a shot slightly past of the hole vs leaving it well short, knowing the shorter putt will have a higher make percentage  Same with SG approach, if you have great SG approach stats and can't putt, well then you need to work on your putting.

 

Have you read the book yet (in it's entirety)? You still seem hung up on finding hypothetic situations where it doesn't hold true and in doing so lose focus of what it's all about. 

[ej002]

18 hours ago, mat562 said:

 

I remember that well.

 

It was two months before he won the US Open by a huge margin, the first of his four Majors.

Exactly, if he doesn't win huge, he doesn't win becaus he is soft as grapes

[MattyO1984]

On the evidence of today, he needs to do some serious serious work with Pete! Left and right misses with the long clubs and thinning chips into the water, that was not pretty at all.

[PureStrikes54]

Yikes the Poults beating your brakes off is not the start you want to see. Chipping into the water after looking like he'd finally win or tie the last hole is icing on the cake. Honestly hoping Pete takes on more of a Bobby Knight role now and the afternoon goes better.

 

Some interesting equipment changes: back in the project x's from the dynamic golds and in a spider with a superstroke from the anser style.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by PureStrikes54

[gvogel]

I don't think that Rory is too far off with his swing.  I think he's far off in his head.  Pete Cowan might be a big help there.

[sonnygolf]

Divorce the wife Rory. Marriage is bad for your game. 

[bscinstnct]

 

 

[MMB1500]

Late to the party here but I believe this is a very, very good decision by McIlroy. Cowen is a first class coach and doesn't mess about. He says it like it is and tough sh!t if you don't like it. Just ask Koepka. 

 

In other words he's the sort of character McIlroy needs to sort his game and, most importantly, his head out. 

[Divot License]

I believe there is an element of familiarity and trust for Rory also, if I remember correctly, Cowen worked with the Ireland Junior team back when Rory was on it so there is some history there already so it makes sense that if Rory is turning to anyone other than his long time coach it would be Cowen.

 

 

[MattyO1984]

1 hour ago, Divot License said:

I believe there is an element of familiarity and trust for Rory also, if I remember correctly, Cowen worked with the Ireland Junior team back when Rory was on it so there is some history there already so it makes sense that if Rory is turning to anyone other than his long time coach it would be Cowen.

 

 

 

Correct, Cowen tells a story of Rory not being able to hit a shot at one training session. Going back for the next session, Rory was straight up to him and said he could now do it, which of course he could. Hopefully, some of that I will show attitude will resurface because the past few weeks have been painful to watch.

[JungleJimbo]

On 3/23/2021 at 8:19 PM, Frankensteins Monster said:

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/report-rory-mcilroy-begin-working-swing-coach-pete-cowen

@Frankensteins Monster: thanks for starting this topic. 

It reminded me of these Pete Cowen videos (the recent Thomas Pieters & Cowen video= got some good reviews!)

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

21 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that because you didn't actually make a point. Yes you have to make a lot of 3 footers, especially since those are statistically far easier than 6 footers, for ams and pros. That is the intent of running a shot slightly past of the hole vs leaving it well short, knowing the shorter putt will have a higher make percentage  Same with SG approach, if you have great SG approach stats and can't putt, well then you need to work on your putting.

 

Have you read the book yet (in it's entirety)? You still seem hung up on finding hypothetic situations where it doesn't hold true and in doing so lose focus of what it's all about. 

Sure I did.  On topic and exactly following the same point made by the other guy.  
 

 

the point is - the closer you hit it , the more chance of having negative strokes gained putting.  
 

 

 

[dlygrisse]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:54 AM, bladehunter said:

I love this guy !   Absolutely agree but I also agree it doesn’t sound like the puttin answer.  Maybe he’s staying with faxon ?  

If Pete Cowan really feels that way it’s obvious why he wasn’t a better tour player.  It makes him sound intellectually stunted. 

[oikos1]

23 hours ago, gvogel said:

He needs to get pudgy again, with an edge!

You mean like this? :

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

13 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

If Pete Cowan really feels that way it’s obvious why he wasn’t a better tour player.  It makes him sound intellectually stunted. 

True on some level.  But I empathize with that idea.  If you’re a guy who controls the ball. , could hit every fairway and green somedays , but can’t put it in the hole , you’d want them to count less too.  
 

the gripe is that ball control is a much greater skill really than putting.  Even though this game gives equal credit to both.  Plenty of good putters that are 20 handicaps.  Never seen a good  ballstriker that controls the ball ( correct sides of fairways , pin high on the green etc ) than wasn’t below a 5 cap.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by bladehunter

[MattyO1984]

36 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

True on some level.  But I empathize with that idea.  If you’re a guy who controls the ball. , could hit every fairway and green somedays , but can’t put it in the hole , you’d want them to count less too.  
 

the gripe is that ball control is a much greater skill really than putting.  Even though this game gives equal credit to both.  Plenty of good putters that are 20 handicaps.  Never seen a good  ballstriker that controls the ball ( correct sides of fairways , pin high on the green etc ) than wasn’t below a 5 cap.  

 

Didn’t Ben Hogan suggest that putts should count for half a stroke?

[UncleJohn’sBand]

On 3/23/2021 at 6:54 PM, bscinstnct said:

I hope PC has some specific plans on putting besides whispering sweet nothings to Rors because this is scary.

 

And I’m a big Rory fan! 

August will be 7 years since his last major. He’s getting into Tiger major drought territory. 

 

Just for context, Phil Mickelson makes 71% of his putts from 6’.

Phil, Londoner. Phil!

 

 

This stat is terrifying to me. 

 

Cowen will help the full swing issues, but putting is a totally different animal. His release seems like he is stuck in between the cemented left wrist (Stockton putting) and the full release of the grip (PK putting). Im not sure if Cowen has any plan to even address putting at the moment

 

[bladehunter]

8 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Didn’t Ben Hogan suggest that putts should count for half a stroke?

Yep.    
 

 

it’s not really a realistic want.  But I get the thought in the abstract.   I absolutely think that hitting a green from 200 out is a greater skill , but to me also easier than making a pretty straight 15 footer.  
 

it’s rooted in bias for sure.  But so is the idea that a 4 foot putt is worth a 340 yard drive.  A great putter had to have had that idea.  

 

[oikos1]

22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep.    
 

 

it’s not really a realistic want.  But I get the thought in the abstract.   I absolutely think that hitting a green from 200 out is a greater skill , but to me also easier than making a pretty straight 15 footer.  
 

it’s rooted in bias for sure.  But so is the idea that a 4 foot putt is worth a 340 yard drive.  A great putter had to have had that idea.  

 

Considering that ball striking was much more important and occurred prior to the development of "modern" greens within what historians consider to be the game of golf, I would agree with your premise.  A lot of ground can be gained by the lesser player on the putting green.

 

In Rory's case, if putting is the real issue, or if it's in his head, those two will be much more challenging to correct.  Golfers at his level are such stallions in regards to the swing that while a swing change may be in order, it is by far the easiest thing to correct.

[Shilgy]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:54 PM, bscinstnct said:

I hope PC has some specific plans on putting besides whispering sweet nothings to Rors because this is scary.

 

And I’m a big Rory fan! 

August will be 7 years since his last major. He’s getting into Tiger major drought territory. 

 

Just for context, Phil Mickelson makes 71% of his putts from 6’.

Phil, Londoner. Phil!

 

Rank means almost nothing in those stats. They all make a high percentage and is based on half a year. Stricker and Poulter are behind Rory. Nuff said.