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Could a 4 cap beat Lydia Ko?


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On 4/22/2021 at 2:10 PM, SPIF said:

You need to play with better golfers, and understand that the courses they play at are never 6400, wide open, with extremely firm fairways.

 

Lydia is a phenomenal golfer, and anyone who disagrees is disagreeing with quantifiable data.  That does not maker her better than world-class or near world-class male golfers.

No doubt but I dont think there are that many world class golfers who post much on this forum. I always hear this and that but they would be on TV if half as good as they claim. Kang hangs with her BF if the course isn't stretched out too much and beats him a decent amount. I'd consider him a world class golfer.

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9 hours ago, SPIF said:

You keep on doubling/tripling down on anecdotes.  That's no different than me saying "how many times has Lydia shot 59 on a 7100 yard course, because junior golfer xxxxxxxx did it last week".

 

World class amateurs are better than she is.  I would bet hundreds on this site, maybe thousands, would routinely beat her in straight up competition.  That's not a knock on her exceptional abilities.  It's just an objective observation.  

 

Seriously, try to get a game with a high level male golfer sometime.  It will be eye-opening, and you'll realize you play a completely different game then they do.  

Routinely? And you accuse him of useless anecdotes? From 6400 or 6900 or whatever they better be minimum -30 or better every time to be “routinely” beating her.

 

This is getting ridiculously far from the original.  And now I am amazed tour scores, men’s that’s is, are not “routinely” , breaking 60.  Considering all the 13 year olds that would drum Ko and make her cry.

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3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Routinely? And you accuse him of useless anecdotes? From 6400 or 6900 or whatever they better be minimum -30 or better every time to be “routinely” beating her.

 

This is getting ridiculously far from the original.  And now I am amazed tour scores, men’s that’s is, are not “routinely” , breaking 60.  Considering all the 13 year olds that would drum Ko and make her cry.

Yes, routinely.  The difference between the PGA tour and LPGA tour is substantial.  There's not just 150 dudes out there that are worlds apart from all the other competitive males pros and ams.

 

Additionally, she doesn't "routinely" go -28 through 4.  Once again, phenomenal golfer.  Don't understand why it's so hard to accept that she's not the top pro in the world.

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35 minutes ago, SPIF said:

Yes, routinely.  The difference between the PGA tour and LPGA tour is substantial.  There's not just 150 dudes out there that are worlds apart from all the other competitive males pros and ams.

 

Additionally, she doesn't "routinely" go -28 through 4.  Once again, phenomenal golfer.  Don't understand why it's so hard to accept that she's not the top pro in the world.

So when did this discussion get to comparing PGA Tour players to LPGA Tour players.  That's like comparing NBA to WNBA players.  C'mon man wake up.  Of course there is a huge difference between them.  That goes without saying and you stating the 100% obvious is SUBSTANTIAL asinine.

 

You give way too much credit to 13yrd olds and not enough credit to the top Gals.  I'll take Patty T for example against a bunch of teens getting a hard on when the wind blows who you hold in high regard just because they can shoot 69 from 6900 yards. 

 

Patty T or Lydia will beat a lot of Div 1 golfers from the same tees.  Not every time.  But it's happening "routinely" should they ever play together.

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15 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

So when did this discussion get to comparing PGA Tour players to LPGA Tour players.  That's like comparing NBA to WNBA players.  C'mon man wake up.  Of course there is a huge difference between them.  That goes without saying and you stating the 100% obvious is SUBSTANTIAL asinine.

 

You give way too much credit to 13yrd olds and not enough credit to the top Gals.  I'll take Patty T for example against a bunch of teens getting a hard on when the wind blows who you hold in high regard just because they can shoot 69 from 6900 yards. 

 

Patty T or Lydia will beat a lot of Div 1 golfers from the same tees.  Not every time.  But it's happening "routinely" should they ever play together.

 

I did not start this.  I responded to an uneducated post that no one on this site could beat Lydia straight up.  I didn't talk about 13 year olds being better.  In fact I said it was just as anecdotal to say some 13 year old somewhere went crazy low one weekend.  Why are you attributing things to me that I didn't type?

 

There are numerous people on this site that would beat Lydia Ko, straight up, the majority of the time.  Plenty of very high level golfers are members here.  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

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3 minutes ago, SPIF said:

 

I did not start this.  I responded to an uneducated post that no one on this site could beat Lydia straight up.  I didn't talk about 13 year olds being better.  In fact I said it was just as anecdotal to say some 13 year old somewhere went crazy low one weekend.  Why are you attributing things to me that I didn't type?

 

There are numerous people on this site that would beat Lydia Ko, straight up, the majority of the time.  Plenty of very high level golfers are members here.  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

Well actually the topic that was started was about a 4 handicap and then it went to highly skilled teens still in puberty to div 1 golfers to world class amateurs and now PGA TOUR players.  There are NO 4's on the site that can best Lydia.  I don't know about "plenty" but agree there are players on this site who can beat Lydia routinely.  But they won't be 4's now will they?

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1 hour ago, mosesgolf said:

Well actually the topic that was started was about a 4 handicap and then it went to highly skilled teens still in puberty to div 1 golfers to world class amateurs and now PGA TOUR players.  There are NO 4's on the site that can best Lydia.  I don't know about "plenty" but agree there are players on this site who can beat Lydia routinely.  But they won't be 4's now will they?

 

No chance in hell a 4 would touch Lydia, ever.  Or any player making money on any tour anywhere in the world for that matter!  She is incredibly good.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, SPIF said:

 

I did not start this.  I responded to an uneducated post that no one on this site could beat Lydia straight up.  I didn't talk about 13 year olds being better.  In fact I said it was just as anecdotal to say some 13 year old somewhere went crazy low one weekend.  Why are you attributing things to me that I didn't type?

 

There are numerous people on this site that would beat Lydia Ko, straight up, the majority of the time.  Plenty of very high level golfers are members here.  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

 

I have to ask how many TOUR players you think are on this site? What portion of posters are + handicaps? What portion of WRX posters do you think are a 4 or better handicap?

 

I know several guys who are + handicaps who played NCAA Div I golf who weren't able to survive on mini-tours much less compete on the Korn Ferry tour.

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https://www.lpga.com/statistics/driving/average-driving-distance?year=2021

 

The gals have gotten long and most of these greather than thou just because it's male vs female and the male is way longer argument doesn't hold alot of water.  Gals are plenty long to compete with the guys from around 7000 yards.   Patty T and the Kordas for example likely hit it past 80-90% of  WRXers for example.  😇  Plus they'll be in the fairways or within on a grander scale.

 

Wilshire CC is a tough course and Champions Tour events were held there.  Jessica and Jin Young Ko are tearing this place up.

 

https://www.lpga.com/tournaments/hugel-air-premia-la-open/leaderboard

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11 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

Well actually the topic that was started was about a 4 handicap and then it went to highly skilled teens still in puberty to div 1 golfers to world class amateurs and now PGA TOUR players.  There are NO 4's on the site that can best Lydia.  I don't know about "plenty" but agree there are players on this site who can beat Lydia routinely.  But they won't be 4's now will they?

 

When does any topic on here ever stay static?  Further, I never said anything remotely close to "a 4 could beat Lydia Ko".  Quite the opposite.  I originally made a simple and accurate post that countered hyperbole masked as truth.

 

Your sanctimonious tone is unfounded, and you erroneously attribute concepts to me that I wholeheartedly disagree with while simultaneously talking down at me.  I don't get your angle.

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6 hours ago, leekgolf said:

 

I have to ask how many TOUR players you think are on this site? What portion of posters are + handicaps? What portion of WRX posters do you think are a 4 or better handicap?

 

I know several guys who are + handicaps who played NCAA Div I golf who weren't able to survive on mini-tours much less compete on the Korn Ferry tour.

 

How could I possibly know how many tour players are on here?  I don't know how many 4 or betters.  Why does either number matter?  Yet again, I have never said that a 4 could even remotely sniff Lydia on a course.  Never said that.  You're attributing that to me out of emotion, not reality.  I also never said that only a PGA tour member could beat Lydia, so that is arbitrary and emotionally driven on your part.

 

I said world-class golfers at the pro and am level could beat her, many of whom are members of this site.  Obviously your several acquaintances are not world-class.  And their inability to make it on th KF tour has no bearing on their ability to beat a non-KF tour player.  Once again a poster on this thread is arguing a made up battle solely with anecdotes.

 

What's the point?

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7 hours ago, leekgolf said:

 

I have to ask how many TOUR players you think are on this site? What portion of posters are + handicaps? What portion of WRX posters do you think are a 4 or better handicap?

 

I know several guys who are + handicaps who played NCAA Div I golf who weren't able to survive on mini-tours much less compete on the Korn Ferry tour.

I would take the vast majority of D1 golfers in a match vs Ko. If you understand how handicaps work then it should be pretty obvious from a math standpoint. A man who is +3-+4 or better is simply statistically a better player. +2? Meh I think it would be some good matches. 

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2 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

https://www.lpga.com/statistics/driving/average-driving-distance?year=2021

 

The gals have gotten long and most of these greather than thou just because it's male vs female and the male is way longer argument doesn't hold alot of water.  Gals are plenty long to compete with the guys from around 7000 yards.   Patty T and the Kordas for example likely hit it past 80-90% of  WRXers for example.  😇  Plus they'll be in the fairways or within on a grander scale.

 

Wilshire CC is a tough course and Champions Tour events were held there.  Jessica and Jin Young Ko are tearing this place up.

 

https://www.lpga.com/tournaments/hugel-air-premia-la-open/leaderboard

They would def be shorter than most + handicap golfers. Hitting it past an 18 handicap means nothing. 

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10 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

I would take the vast majority of D1 golfers in a match vs Ko. If you understand how handicaps work then it should be pretty obvious from a math standpoint. A man who is +3-+4 or better is simply statistically a better player. +2? Meh I think it would be some good matches. 

Except, of course, that Lydia has been playing closer to a men's +5 the past few tournaments.  Unlikely to stay at that pace, but doubt she will fall down to men's +2 in the near future.  The top 15 women probably (I haven't done the math so somewhat speculative) hover between men's +3 to +4.

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2 hours ago, SPIF said:

 

How could I possibly know how many tour players are on here?  I don't know how many 4 or betters.  Why does either number matter?  Yet again, I have never said that a 4 could even remotely sniff Lydia on a course.  Never said that.  You're attributing that to me out of emotion, not reality.  I also never said that only a PGA tour member could beat Lydia, so that is arbitrary and emotionally driven on your part.

 

I said world-class golfers at the pro and am level could beat her, many of whom are members of this site.  Obviously your several acquaintances are not world-class.  And their inability to make it on th KF tour has no bearing on their ability to beat a non-KF tour player.  Once again a poster on this thread is arguing a made up battle solely with anecdotes.

 

What's the point?

As you posted below, you were talking about people on this site. I doubt there are any TOUR players on this site and very few if any plus handicaps.

13 hours ago, SPIF said:

 

I did not start this.  I responded to an uneducated post that no one on this site could beat Lydia straight up.  I didn't talk about 13 year olds being better.  In fact I said it was just as anecdotal to say some 13 year old somewhere went crazy low one weekend.  Why are you attributing things to me that I didn't type?

 

There are numerous people on this site that would beat Lydia Ko, straight up, the majority of the time.  Plenty of very high level golfers are members here.  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

I also didn't say the people I know are +2s. Three are former D1 All Americans. One a +4 and the other a +5. They are damn good players. One won the state open. The other won the state Am. Neither of them could succeed on mini tours and have reclaimed amateur status. I doubt they would consistently beat Lydia Ko. Yes, they are all longer than Lydia. Her short game and putting are much better than theirs.

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16 hours ago, SPIF said:

 

I did not start this.  I responded to an uneducated post that no one on this site could beat Lydia straight up.  I didn't talk about 13 year olds being better.  In fact I said it was just as anecdotal to say some 13 year old somewhere went crazy low one weekend.  Why are you attributing things to me that I didn't type?

 

There are numerous people on this site that would beat Lydia Ko, straight up, the majority of the time.  Plenty of very high level golfers are members here.  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

I did not see any post that claimed what you say. Maybe you could point it out?  Where did someone say there was no one on this site that could beat her? Perhaps some of the disconnect is your definition of routinely. To me that would mean ALL of the time as the top synonyms are normally/consistently/habitually. That is certainly a bit different than your most current “a majority of the time”. 
 

I will apologize though on the other point. It was another poster, not you, that claimed there were hundreds, or thousands was it, of 13 year olds that would drum Lydia.

 

edited to add....there is also a huge difference between what we all call handicaps and using the scoring averages of tour players, both men and women. 
  Read some of @Forged4ever’s posts about play for pay versus amateurs.

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4 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

I would take the vast majority of D1 golfers in a match vs Ko. If you understand how handicaps work then it should be pretty obvious from a math standpoint. A man who is +3-+4 or better is simply statistically a better player. +2? Meh I think it would be some good matches. 

On the better teams yes. There are plenty of d1 players that are not nearly the handicap you mention. Or maybe I should say their competitive scoring records do indicate they are. Maybe they are better handicaps than their tournament play suggests.**

 

** I randomly checked the university’s of Oregon and Minnesota.  An awful lot of 73+ scoring averages.

 

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a 73 scoring average doesn't mean they aren't +4. The ratings and slopes of courses they are playing are typically pretty high compared to average player. They also play 36 competitive holes in the same day sometimes which is different than typical golfers and physically difficult. College season is also in the spring and fall so especially more northern teams are often playing in crap weather. 

 

Elite college players, like the best ones in the country average 69-70 and those are people who can make cuts in pga tour events. so someone 3 shots worse than that is still really really good. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, leekgolf said:

As you posted below, you were talking about people on this site. I doubt there are any TOUR players on this site and very few if any plus handicaps.

I also didn't say the people I know are +2s. Three are former D1 All Americans. One a +4 and the other a +5. They are damn good players. One won the state open. The other won the state Am. Neither of them could succeed on mini tours and have reclaimed amateur status. I doubt they would consistently beat Lydia Ko. Yes, they are all longer than Lydia. Her short game and putting are much better than theirs.

If they're still taking it serious and +4 and +5s with those histories then I think at absolute worst it would be close. 

 

Would Lydia Ko win a mens state open? I don't think so in the competitive states like florida or cali. Somewhere like Wyoming, better chance but still probably not IMO?

 

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On 4/4/2021 at 10:06 PM, MtlJeff said:

Well hold on now cowboy. What if the course is 27,000 yards long and completely wide open, and the 4 index is a long drive champion.

 

Better yet, what if the course was 29,000 yards long and even more wide open, and the 4 index was a 2-time long drive champion?

 

 


 

27,000 yards? you wouldn’t be playing golf.  That’s some other sport you made up in your head

 

 

and: At the moment Lydia owns the superior handicap (+6.2)

 

so is your 4 handicap getting the 10 strokes?

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On 4/24/2021 at 5:13 PM, pinhigh27 said:

a 73 scoring average doesn't mean they aren't +4. The ratings and slopes of courses they are playing are typically pretty high compared to average player. They also play 36 competitive holes in the same day sometimes which is different than typical golfers and physically difficult. College season is also in the spring and fall so especially more northern teams are often playing in crap weather. 

 

Elite college players, like the best ones in the country average 69-70 and those are people who can make cuts in pga tour events. so someone 3 shots worse than that is still really really good. 

 

 

Dancing goalposts. 
 

This is what you posted earlier....

I would take the vast majority of D1 golfers in a match 

 

Now it is the elite that would.  And yes....a 73 scoring average is a good player but it also means they would not beat Ko routinely as in normally every time. Yes they built that on longer courses. For the sake of argument let’s say those courses average 3 strokes higher in course rating. Now they are about even with Ko but would still beat the woman about every time? The woman that’s is doing this for a living?

 

The Arizona State stroke play was this weekend. A fair amount of +2 to +5 handicaps. Six finished under par and the weather was perfect.

 

Handicaps are built on best 8 of 20. Pros need to play every week.  Calculate their anti handicap....the scores they don’t count and compare to a professional. To beat her “routinely”  their bad needs to be pretty good as well.
 

This thread has turned from the 4 handicap to guys finding other guys they think would beat her.  And sure...the elite ams about to try pro would beat her most often.  But even then not as routinely as you feel they would.

 

But we all have opinions and I am done with this silly thread.

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, GatorNate11 said:

Weren't there a few running around here back in the day? Idk if it was ever substantiated but I think it was at least strongly felt that CH3 was a member here. Could also just be another WRX thing, who knows. 

Robert Damron and Jason Gore for sure.  Probably other PGA tour players as well.  Several former KF tour and mini tour players.  More than most realize I suspect.

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I will nominate myself as a 4 handicap to take on Lydia. My home course white tees are 6300 and I play them often. She can come to my course. I've played it hundreds of times. If I'm not whizzing down my leg because I'm competing against her I'll probably shoot something like 78. She'll probably shoot something like 66. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I imagine we tend to both overestimate this site's importance and underestimate it at the same time.


 

Exactly. I wouldn’t say much said here is “important” to pros. Although I do think there’s a lot of really good insight shared by members. Good as Brandel, anyway!

 

But just culture of the times, I could definitely see many or most pros takin a gander at tour talk when they are just putzing around with their phones. 

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11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Dancing goalposts. 
 

This is what you posted earlier....

I would take the vast majority of D1 golfers in a match 

 

Now it is the elite that would.  And yes....a 73 scoring average is a good player but it also means they would not beat Ko routinely as in normally every time. Yes they built that on longer courses. For the sake of argument let’s say those courses average 3 strokes higher in course rating. Now they are about even with Ko but would still beat the woman about every time? The woman that’s is doing this for a living?

 

The Arizona State stroke play was this weekend. A fair amount of +2 to +5 handicaps. Six finished under par and the weather was perfect.

 

Handicaps are built on best 8 of 20. Pros need to play every week.  Calculate their anti handicap....the scores they don’t count and compare to a professional. To beat her “routinely”  their bad needs to be pretty good as well.
 

This thread has turned from the 4 handicap to guys finding other guys they think would beat her.  And sure...the elite ams about to try pro would beat her most often.  But even then not as routinely as you feel they would.

 

But we all have opinions and I am done with this silly thread.

 

 

 

Nothing has changed. The 69-70 elite D1 player would destroy her, it wouldn't even be close. Those people make PGA tour cuts. Again, I think the vast majority of D1 golfers would beat Ko straight up, the majority of the time. People have no idea the conditions they play in or the difficulty of the courses they play. Compared to LPGA tour courses it is not even close. Not even talking about length, talking about set up, pin positions, firmness etc. 

 

I don't know what the arizona state stroke play is, is that some state of Arizona thing or related to the college Arizona State?  Why does par for the tournament matter? One person broke par at the 2020 us open yet the entire field would beat Ko straight up from the same tees. That is completely related to course setup and weather among other things. 

 

These threads change because they start with an insane premise. No one thinks a 4 handicapper would regularly beat Lydia Ko, so it morphs into "Ok lets talk about who might have a chance."

 

There are not many +2 handicap golfers in Division 1 golf. Maybe at crappy obscure schools. At any school you have heard of? Not even close. 

 

Ko plays bad too sometimes. Obviously she has played great recently and deserves all the props for that. But I'm not sure where you think a college kid can play bad but she can't. 

 

 

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      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #2
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #3
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #4
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #5
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #6
       
       

       
       
      Bryson Nimmer's Bettinardi putter - 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree
      Dustin Johnson's got the putter try-outs going on - 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree
       
       
       
       
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      • 35 replies
    • 2021 Memorial - Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       

       
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #1
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #2
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #3
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #4
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #5
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #6
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #7
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #8
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #9
       
       
       

       
       
       

       
      Piretti putter & cover for Hideki - 2021 Memorial
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Memorial
      New Odyssey (play like a kid) putter over - 2021 Memorial
      Bettinardi putters & covers - 2021 Memorial
      Ben An's Cameron putter - 2021 Memorial
       
       
      • 27 replies
    • 2021 Charles Schwab Challenge  - Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       

       
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #1
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #2
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #3
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #4
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #5
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #6
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #7
       
       

       
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge winner will get this Power wagon
      Eric Compton testing Axis 1 putter - 2021 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cameron putter and new cover - 2021 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • Phil Mickelson Winning WITB from the 2021 PGA Championship
      Phil Mickelson's Winning What's In The Bag? 
       
      Driver: Callaway Epic Speed Triple Diamond (6 degrees @5.5 , green dot cog) Fujikura Ventus Black 6 X (47.9 inches)
      2-wood: TaylorMade “Original One” Mini Driver (11.5 degrees) Fujikura Ventus Black 7 X
      4-wood: (Sunday only): Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero (16.5 degrees) Fujikura Ventus Blue 8 X
      Irons: Callaway X Forged UT (16) (Thursday-Saturday), Callaway X21 UT Proto (19 degrees @20.5, 25), Callaway Apex MB ‘21 (small groove) (6-PW) Shafts- 16* MCA MMT 105 TX, KBS Tour V 125 S+
      Wedges: Callaway PM Grind ’19 “Raw” ([email protected]*, 55-12*, 60-10*) Shafts: KBS Tour V 125 S+
      Putter: Odyssey Milled Blade “Phil Mickelson” SuperStroke Pistol GT Tour
      Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft X (Triple Track)
      Grips: Golf Pride MCC
       
      Link to more pics on the front-page... https://www.golfwrx.com/654804/phil-mickelson-witb-2021-may-pga-championship/
       

       
       
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      • 86 replies

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