Does Lie angle matter with woods?

[JCray33]

Read an article/forum on here and it talked about lie angle with drivers/woods that is often overlooked...will a flatter lie angle (Callaway sub zero models 56 degrees) compared to a 58 or 59 degree lie angle driver influence curvature? My miss is too much draw/pull action will flatter woods help?? Thought this was pretty interesting let me know your thoughts!

Edited April 7, 2021 by JCray33

[Seattlegolfnut]

Certainly no expert, but I’ve convinced myself it matters some for the fairway woods and not so much for the driver since there isn’t (typically) turf interaction.
 

I figure with adjustable settings, might as well get my hybrid and 3W on similar “slope” progression as my irons. I don’t know that it helps, but it hasn’t hurt me playing this way.

 

With my titleist drivers, I do find the “fade” setting in far right column of the fitting chart does promote a little anti left, and trackman confirms me hitting with a bit more open face to path than standard lie. I’m not smart enough to know if it’s the club or my brain saying “you’re in the fade setting so you will hit a fade” and I leave the face open a bit.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Seattlegolfnut
Spelling

[Cwebb]

Yes, it can help.  Can also help with contact off the deck, if you don't really need the upright lie... in terms of the angle that the sole is coming into impact.

 

Ping has also offered flatter fairways and hybrids

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cwebb

[JCray33]

3 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

 

Ping has also offered flatter fairways and hybrids

 I noticed yeah their "LST" version is a degree flatter than their Max version and can be turned 1 degree flatter too. 

[Awainer1]

What lie angles do you use in your irons. I’m 2 upright and a 58.5 lie angle 3 wood fits me perfectly 

[Aviador Naval]

It matters with putter at ~4 degrees so it most definitely matters with driver and every other club in the bag.  The extent to which it matters is dependent on the individual and the peculiarities of the swing.  Sometimes all it does is aid in good alignment at set-up - sometimes it promotes a slightly different swing - sometimes it is a combination of both.

 

Flatter generally promotes a fade but if you get too flat - especially with a longer driver shaft - you could just as easily rope hook the $h!t out of it.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Aviador Naval

[jadedennill]

I play my irons at 3* up and tried the Ping G425 Max fw for about 10 shots. At 56.5* lie it came off dead right on every swing. Hit the Sim at 59-60* I believe, and it was perfect. I couldn’t believe how much of a difference it made for me, but apparently it does. 

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, JCray33 said:

Read an article/forum on here and it talked about lie angle with drivers/woods that is often overlooked...will a flatter lie angle (Callaway sub zero models 56 degrees) compared to a 58 or 59 degree lie angle driver influence curvature? My miss is too much draw/pull action will flatter woods help?? Thought this was pretty interesting let me know your thoughts!

Its a big can of worms....
We "say" that Lie angles becomes more and more important as loft goes up, but its a truth with some modifications since the OFFLINE as yards is more or less the same no matter club for each 1* lie is off.

so we have to judge it this way:
If we say that 1* lie angle OFF moves the ball 3 yards to the right or left (IRONS AND WEDGE), thats a tolerance too large for "a better player", but 3 yards to the right or left with a driver or wood is not that critical as it is for a scoring club.

So yes, Lie angles matter on ALL clubs, and taken to the extreme, depending on the player and what specs his woods have "off the rack", it could be a perfect fit, or something that should be modified one way or another before its put to play. (like going shorter to flatten lie at impact if thats the only option to get lie flatter as one example), and if lie is really off, turf interaction want work as it should either where a little fat could mean a total disaster as outcome so we remove most of the forgiveness the sole design has if any.

To judge lie angle at impact, we should use the ball marker/sharpie test on ALL clubs from Driver to wedge, and it will tell if you should go up or down and how much.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Seattlegolfnut]

@Howard_Jones and others: What I don't understand is with the driver, or with any club on a tee for that matter (when there's no turf interaction), how does a flat or upright lie angle actually result in a ball that goes offline?

 

Suppose an experiment with two shots where all impact parameters are the same (strike location, path, face to path, AoA, etc.) EXCEPT for club lie angle.

 

Question: Does simply tilting the head result in tilted ball spin axis and a non-straight shot? Here's a picture I just made to visualize hitting a ball with the "marker/sharpie" test in a perfectly square to ground lie angle (Left) and an upright relative to ground lie angle (Right).

 

Presumption #1: The ball doesn't know if the thing that hit it was square to the ground or on some tilt. It just gets pushed in a direction. So two shots with exact same impact conditions EXCEPT lie angle would result in the ball being pushed away in the same direction with the same spin and same spin axis.

 

Presumption #2: When the ball is on the ground, a non-square-to-ground lie angle results in toe or heel hitting the ground with the other end free to continue to rotate. So that "catching" of the ground changes the relative angular rotation of the toe/heel portions of the head (i.e. opening / closing of the face through the very small duration we call the moment of impact). Results: shot goes offline.

 

If these presumptive statements are true (which they may not be), my hypothesis for offline shots with no turf interaction is:

 

Flatter lie = less face rotation = open face to path = fade.

Upright lie = more face rotation = closed face to path = draw.

 

But I can't understand how or why that would be the case.

 

Thoughts? Answers?

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Seattlegolfnut

[Alan Pllu]

Face angle tilt. For a right handed golfer the loft of the club makes the face point left when too upright and right when too flat. This influences start line, can be used to help dial in start line a little as a fine tuning adjustment. 

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Seattlegolfnut said:

@Howard_Jones and others: What I don't understand is with the driver, or with any club on a tee for that matter (when there's no turf interaction), how does a flat or upright lie angle actually result in a ball that goes offline?

 

Suppose an experiment with two shots where all impact parameters are the same (strike location, path, face to path, AoA, etc.) EXCEPT for club lie angle.

 

Question: Does simply tilting the head result in tilted ball spin axis and a non-straight shot? Here's a picture I just made to visualize hitting a ball with the "marker/sharpie" test in a perfectly square to ground lie angle (Left) and an upright relative to ground lie angle (Right).

 

Presumption #1: The ball doesn't know if the thing that hit it was square to the ground or on some tilt. It just gets pushed in a direction. So two shots with exact same impact conditions EXCEPT lie angle would result in the ball being pushed away in the same direction with the same spin and same spin axis.

 

Presumption #2: When the ball is on the ground, a non-square-to-ground lie angle results in toe or heel hitting the ground with the other end free to continue to rotate. So that "catching" of the ground changes the relative angular rotation of the toe/heel portions of the head (i.e. opening / closing of the face through the very small duration we call the moment of impact). Results: shot goes offline.

 

If these presumptive statements are true (which they may not be), my hypothesis for offline shots with no turf interaction is:

 

Flatter lie = less face rotation = open face to path = fade.

Upright lie = more face rotation = closed face to path = draw.

 

But I can't understand how or why that would be the case.

 

Thoughts? Answers?

 

Look at your own illustration to the LEFT.
when we tilt that head, the RED LINE will TILT
The balls SPIN on the axis off the RED line no matter what direction we tilt it


 

[JCray33]

I feel like for the better players their miss is usually too much draw, so most of the "pro" model driver heads (Sub zero, LST, etc.) have flatter lie angles then the more forgiving drivers (Ping MAX etc.) so to me it seems lie angle HAS to have influence on ball flight otherwise they wouldn't change lie angle..

Edited April 8, 2021 by JCray33

[joostin]

3 hours ago, Seattlegolfnut said:

@Howard_Jones and others: What I don't understand is with the driver, or with any club on a tee for that matter (when there's no turf interaction), how does a flat or upright lie angle actually result in a ball that goes offline?

 

Suppose an experiment with two shots where all impact parameters are the same (strike location, path, face to path, AoA, etc.) EXCEPT for club lie angle.

 

Question: Does simply tilting the head result in tilted ball spin axis and a non-straight shot? Here's a picture I just made to visualize hitting a ball with the "marker/sharpie" test in a perfectly square to ground lie angle (Left) and an upright relative to ground lie angle (Right).

 

Presumption #1: The ball doesn't know if the thing that hit it was square to the ground or on some tilt. It just gets pushed in a direction. So two shots with exact same impact conditions EXCEPT lie angle would result in the ball being pushed away in the same direction with the same spin and same spin axis.

 

Presumption #2: When the ball is on the ground, a non-square-to-ground lie angle results in toe or heel hitting the ground with the other end free to continue to rotate. So that "catching" of the ground changes the relative angular rotation of the toe/heel portions of the head (i.e. opening / closing of the face through the very small duration we call the moment of impact). Results: shot goes offline.

 

If these presumptive statements are true (which they may not be), my hypothesis for offline shots with no turf interaction is:

 

Flatter lie = less face rotation = open face to path = fade.

Upright lie = more face rotation = closed face to path = draw.

 

But I can't understand how or why that would be the case.

 

Thoughts? Answers?

 

Adding to Alan and Howard's comments with other illustrations...  Say the "face angle" (or my preferred phrase "leading edge angle") is square to the target.  If there's any tilt in lie, it actually changes where the clubface is pointed.  Call it tilted spin axis, tilted loft plane, tilted D-plane... That face is not pointed directly down the target line anymore, even if the leading edge is square.  See the "offline" vs target line pics below at a 3° lie:

 

60° wedge:

Driver:

 

If you ever see instructors with a magnetic rod sticking out perpendicular to the face, that's what the blue dotted lines above show, and their offline projection on the ground.

 

As far as the toe or heel catching the ground, it's not the case usually as the club is hitting the ball before any hard enough turf can twist it.  Sure it can play a role when hitting fat or in rough, but otherwise the ball is gone before it can affect it.

[Seattlegolfnut]

53 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Look at your own illustration to the LEFT.
when we tilt that head, the RED LINE will TILT
The balls SPIN on the axis off the RED line no matter what direction we tilt it


 

So taking what you are showing here and what @Alan Pllu wrote above, I grabbed my magnetic lie stick thing and can clearly see that the resultant shot from a change in lie angle is actually influenced by the loft of the club. I missed that in my earlier thinking.

 

Thanks guys!

[Seattlegolfnut]

21 minutes ago, joostin said:

Adding to Alan and Howard's comments with other illustrations...  Say the "face angle" (or my preferred phrase "leading edge angle") is square to the target.  If there's any tilt in lie, it actually changes where the clubface is pointed.  Call it tilted spin axis, tilted loft plane, tilted D-plane... That face is not pointed directly down the target line anymore, even if the leading edge is square.  See the "offline" vs target line pics below at a 3° lie:

 

60° wedge:

Driver:

 

If you ever see instructors with a magnetic rod sticking out perpendicular to the face, that's what the blue dotted lines above show, and their offline projection on the ground.

 

As far as the toe or heel catching the ground, it's not the case usually as the club is hitting the ball before any hard enough turf can twist it.  Sure it can play a role when hitting fat or in rough, but otherwise the ball is gone before it can affect it.

 

That’s awesome. Thank you for those illustrations! I was writing my earlier reply and didn’t see yours but this help a lot, too.

 

I do have one of those magnetic sticks. Grabbed it at a garage sale a while back and never really paid attention to it until a half hour ago. 
 

I always thought it was turf contact that mattered and didn’t regard the orientation of that lofted plane. The light bulb just went off, ha!

Edited April 8, 2021 by Seattlegolfnut

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, JCray33 said:

I feel like for the better players their miss is usually too much draw, so most of the "pro" model driver heads (Sub zero, LST, etc.) have flatter lie angles then the more forgiving drivers (Ping MAX etc.) so to me it seems lie angle HAS to have influence on ball flight otherwise they wouldn't change lie angle..

I wonder if that holds true for the SIM 1 and 2 vs. the SIM MAX 1 and 2.  I know people say that the SIM is more fade biased but I didn't experience that. 

[Howard_Jones]

On 4/7/2021 at 3:52 AM, Cwebb said:

Yes, it can help.  Can also help with contact off the deck, if you don't really need the upright lie... in terms of the angle that the sole is coming into impact.

 

Ping has also offered flatter fairways and hybrids

Good point, "CONTACT" i did not use those words but mentioned possible issues on fat shorts, but its contact and access to the ball in general that can be prevented or improved by a small lie angle tweak.

Just use the sharpie test, and use this label for direction of change, and a estimate of how much you need to adjust lie angle so it becomes neutral at impact. Its THE ANGLE we look at, NOT impact position heel or toe side, its got noting to do with it.



 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Seattlegolfnut]

9 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Good point, "CONTACT" i did not use those words but mentioned possible issues on fat shorts, but its contact and access to the ball in general that can be prevented or improved by a small lie angle tweak.

Just use the sharpie test, and use this label for direction of change, and a estimate of how much you need to adjust lie angle so it becomes neutral at impact. Its THE ANGLE we look at, NOT impact position heel or toe side, its got noting to do with it.



 

Those are cool labels. Did you make those or buy them someplace? Did a quick online search this morning and can’t find any like that.

[Howard_Jones]

4 minutes ago, Seattlegolfnut said:

Those are cool labels. Did you make those or buy them someplace? Did a quick online search this morning and can’t find any like that.

Its labels i have made and developed myself, and you dont even need them, just take a snap shot with your mobile and upload a photo and we can judge lie angle within 1/10 of a degree......at least for irons we can, i NEVER tried them myself on anything but irons.

Here is whats behind.....it might seem very complicated but its not, when we understand that we have to change plus values to minus....
For those with a deeper understanding, its simply the LIE BOARD system, reversed.....so when i say we judge the angle, thats the USER INTERFACE, but reality is, whats actually is measured is the distance from the center and out to impact position or wide of the bottom of the triangle.

Its a huge head twister for most, especially when we need to change plus to minus to get real values, but its simple stuff really

Just like a lie board (misused) would say "go 2* uppright" when impact mark is 4/8" against the toe, my labels measure the same way, but without the error sources like toe drop, face and path that is the issue with lie boards, so its ACTUALLY the WIDE of the bottom of the triangle we measure, using the diagonal line of a triangle...

To "measure" we could have used a "gauge" like this one.
The printed line on the face would be the diagonal line, whats measured is actually the WIDE of the bottom of the same triangle




If you want the labels printed, you can down load them from this tread as PDF ready for AVERY label sheets
 

 

[Seattlegolfnut]

3 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Its labels i have made and developed myself, and you dont even need them, just take a snap shot with your mobile and upload a photo and we can judge lie angle within 1/10 of a degree......at least for irons we can, i NEVER tried them myself on anything but irons.

Here is whats behind.....it might seem very complicated but its not, when we understand that we have to change plus values to minus....
For those with a deeper understanding, its simply the LIE BOARD system, reversed.....so when i say we judge the angle, thats the USER INTERFACE, but reality is, whats actually is measured is the distance from the center and out to impact position or wide of the bottom of the triangle.

Its a huge head twister for most, especially when we need to change plus to minus to get real values, but its simple stuff really

Just like a lie board (misused) would say "go 2* uppright" when impact mark is 4/8" against the toe, my labels measure the same way, but without the error sources like toe drop, face and path that is the issue with lie boards, so its ACTUALLY the WIDE of the bottom of the triangle we measure, using the diagonal line of a triangle...

To "measure" we could have used a "gauge" like this one.
The printed line on the face would be the diagonal line, whats measured is actually the WIDE of the bottom of the same triangle




If you want the labels printed, you can down load them from this tread as PDF ready for AVERY label sheets
 

 

Very cool Howard!

 

I learn so much from you (and others!) here. 

[rsballer10]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:33 PM, JCray33 said:

Read an article/forum on here and it talked about lie angle with drivers/woods that is often overlooked...will a flatter lie angle (Callaway sub zero models 56 degrees) compared to a 58 or 59 degree lie angle driver influence curvature? My miss is too much draw/pull action will flatter woods help?? Thought this was pretty interesting let me know your thoughts!

 

What I don't see mentioned very often is that I think the lie angle does matter, but not because it changes the face angle at impact. 

 

I think lie angle influences handle height at address, which influences ball flight. Higher hands makes it easier to hit a draw, lower hands encourages a fade. I'm guessing it influences swing dynamics in this way.

[Wardonation]

So as I read these labels if I am missing on "heel" (titleist standard length) I should go upright? I always thought heel impact you go flat? I am not talking about ball flight purely "impact location"..

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, rsballer10 said:

 

What I don't see mentioned very often is that I think the lie angle does matter, but not because it changes the face angle at impact. 

 

I think lie angle influences handle height at address, which influences ball flight. Higher hands makes it easier to hit a draw, lower hands encourages a fade. I'm guessing it influences swing dynamics in this way.

You got it upside down " Higher hands makes it easier to hit a draw, lower hands encourages a fade"

Higher hands means LOWER TOE, and opposite, so a club with fixed lie, would cause a draw/hook with low hands, and a fade slice with high hands, since our hand position "tilt" the club head, one way or the other

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, Wardonation said:

So as I read these labels if I am missing on "heel" (titleist standard length) I should go upright? I always thought heel impact you go flat? I am not talking about ball flight purely "impact location"..

do yourself a favor READ....its ALL written, and no need for that question

Your words..."I always thought heel impact you go flat? I am not talking about ball flight purely "impact location"..

Already written "Its THE ANGLE we look at, NOT impact position heel or toe side, its got noting to do with it.
 

[rsballer10]

47 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

You got it upside down " Higher hands makes it easier to hit a draw, lower hands encourages a fade"

Higher hands means LOWER TOE, and opposite, so a club with fixed lie, would cause a draw/hook with low hands, and a fade slice with high hands, since our hand position "tilt" the club head, one way or the other

But aren't there other swing dynamics at play? I thought higher hands increased face rotation. I think it was the old stack and tilt instruction I read that said for a draw pattern they preferred higher hands with more shaft lean at address. For a fade pattern they said lower hands with less shaft lean. I could be wrong, as that was over 10 years ago that I read the book.

[Howard_Jones]

Lie angle is a product of hand position and toe drop, thats it.
High hands = low toe
Low hands =  high toe
Its not any more complicated that that.....




Since its all "relative" the "high hand player" should play a more upright lie, "the low hand player" a flatter lie

Edited April 8, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

I think lie angle influences handle height at address,

 

For some people it does, but it really shouldn't.  Your address position and hand height ideally should be independent of the lie angle of the club.  Positions (and hand height) at setup and impact are not (or rarely) the same, and the lie angles of the club should be fit for impact, not setup.

[JCray33]

Alright back from the range and can confirm lie angle did not matter for me at least...actually hooked my rogue sub zero more on my misses than my g410 plus so for me at least, lie angle doesn’t really mean much...also my ball flight was ridiculously low with the sub zero definitely for the highest of hitters and highest swing speed swingers (my ball speed is around 165 on average)

Edited April 8, 2021 by JCray33

[Seattlegolfnut]

 

58 minutes ago, JCray33 said:

Alright back from the range and can confirm lie angle did not matter for me at least...actually hooked my rogue sub zero more on my misses than my g410 plus so for me at least, lie angle doesn’t really mean much...also my ball flight was ridiculously low with the sub zero definitely for the highest of hitters and highest swing speed swingers (my ball speed is around 165 on average)

 

After wrapping my brain around all the physics stuff last night, I'm with you that I don't notice any real-world difference with the driver either. ~160mph ball speed here. I can snap hook out of the flat (fade) setting and slice off the planet in the upright (draw) settings depending what side of the bed I woke up on.

 

I just think there are so many other impact condition variables that have a more prevalent effect on the ball flight than lie angle (for me). Maybe it's noticeable for the best ball strikers.

 

[JCray33]

3 minutes ago, Seattlegolfnut said:

 

 

After wrapping my brain around all the physics stuff last night, I'm with you that I don't notice any real-world difference with the driver either. ~160mph ball speed here. I can snap hook out of the flat (fade) setting and slice off the planet in the upright (draw) settings depending what side of the bed I woke up on.

 

I just think there are so many other impact condition variables that have a more prevalent effect on the ball flight than lie angle (for me). Maybe it's noticeable for the best ball strikers.

 

 

Yup 100% agree. Well that's the beauty of this game is trying things! Will stick with my forgiving Ping 410 Plus Driver that's for sure 😃  Going from 65 gram shaft to 75 definitely has helped lessen the big draw here and there. That worked at least lol

Edited April 8, 2021 by JCray33