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Do you think of your swing as more "around" (back and forward), or "up and down"?


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(Never mind which has been "proven" with 3D modeling or any of that...) Just looking to see people's mental approach to the swing and how it's manifested in feel.

 

I have ALWAYS gone too "at the ball" with my downswing (and often took the club back too "around" me, getting my left arm pinned on my chest). I've watched Justin Rose rehearse dropping his arms down to shallow and get on plane a million times, watched various clips from Jake Hutt and others showing the intent of slamming the club into the ground behind the ball (that when coupled with a proper turn is Purina), etc... But I've found that I either DO actually bottom the club out behind the ball, especially with a longer club like driver, and/or feel like the club face is way too shut coming into the ball (I have a relatively strong grip) to pursue more of a downward arms move for the downswing. Inevitably, I end up reverting to feeling like I'm maintaining a bend back right wrist at impact and hitting the back of the ball -- i.e., going at the ball again.

 

I also have Monte's latest NTC. I definitely see and understand the merits of it. I just think I've got the wrist conditions wrong whereas the club is too shut for me (personally, at least) to be able to turn hard/fast enough a la DJ to not hook the ball off the planet. With a stronger grip, should I make sure that the club is at least not at all closed at the top of my backswing?

 

Just looking for some input regarding your "up/down" vs "around" intensions in your swing, and what different wrist/club position conditions are important for you to execute the swing with your intentions.

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For me...Up in the backswing, low and around on the downswing.

I never thought about it, but I feel this would be a great question to ask your friends right before they tee off on the most difficult hole of the course. 🤣

If you keep the body steep and turn, I don't think that is a bad thing. If you are truly doing it right, it not only squares the face but helps lay down the shaft, so in theory you can just turn hard

2 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

Haha Ok. Do you recommend hitting the ball better, too?

 

Seriously though... To what? What do you have in mind when you say that? Thanks.

You have Monte's NTC - it's ALL in there, brother. 🙂 The most simple full swing system around right now. If your wrist conditions are correct going back and at transition there's a better than average chance that you're going to solve your issues. 

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8 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

TDA -- Thanks. I suppose I have a tendency to add the "motorcycle move" (turning the hands down/closing the face a la Rahm, Thomas, DJ, etc.) to the cast motion. Seems to me that, with a strong grip, that's not a good combo. Does that sound about right?

That kinda is cast a. You might need to add some cast b to the move. 

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When I was in my 30's, mine was much like DJ's or Trevino's. VERY low right shoulder, VERY much UNDER and THEN around.

 

Today, when healthy, I am much more "around," because my back can't take the under.

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1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

TDA -- Thanks. I suppose I have a tendency to add the "motorcycle move" (turning the hands down/closing the face a la Rahm, Thomas, DJ, etc.) to the cast motion. Seems to me that, with a strong grip, that's not a good combo. Does that sound about right?

If you keep the body steep and turn, I don't think that is a bad thing. If you are truly doing it right, it not only squares the face but helps lay down the shaft, so in theory you can just turn hard through the shot. If you are leaning the shaft 10-15* like professionals, it's going to have to feel extremely shut when in reality it's not. Since you are bottoming out the club early, this leads me to think your natural move might be to tilt in order to shallow the shaft, which leads to the stall and flip. Now if you close it and your natural tendency is to stall and flip, that is going to be an issue and the compensation that needs to be unlearned essentially.

 

I've at times thought of it in both of those ways...now I try think of it as both. Too much (or not enough) of either is problematic, especially in transition.  Centered turn and get tall in the backswing, down and around in transition. The hard part is getting the wrists to work correctly such that the body doesn't need to compensate

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I have gone back and forth on flat vs. upright swings over the years.  LOL just like everything else in my golf swing.  This video helped me to understand what I want to do in either case a bit better:

 

I have a rather strong grip also and currently I am intending a connected swing on a flatter feeling plane.  I am setting up with my stance open and my shoulders square which seems to keep my swing path in a good place.  I have a tendency to go out on my toes starting down which does a lot of bad things and the open stance seems to help mitigate that tendency.  Anyway if I stay connected with my lead shoulder and upper arm through the ball I seem to keep my shots on line fairly well.  For me there is nothing to 'time' in this type of swing I simply feel like I turn my shoulders back on the backswing and through the ball and so far so good.

 

Don't know if any of this stuff would help anyone but could be some things there to play around with a little bit?  

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1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

 

If you keep the body steep and turn, I don't think that is a bad thing. If you are truly doing it right, it not only squares the face but helps lay down the shaft, so in theory you can just turn hard through the shot. If you are leaning the shaft 10-15* like professionals, it's going to have to feel extremely shut when in reality it's not. Since you are bottoming out the club early, this leads me to think your natural move might be to tilt in order to shallow the shaft, which leads to the stall and flip. Now if you close it and your natural tendency is to stall and flip, that is going to be an issue and the compensation that needs to be unlearned essentially.

 

I'm sure you're touching on a big part of the problem. I'm likely hanging back and tilting too much such that the club literally bottoms out before the ball (again, when attempting the NTC/Jake Hutt intention).

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2 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

I'm sure you're touching on a big part of the problem. I'm likely hanging back and tilting too much such that the club literally bottoms out before the ball (again, when attempting the NTC/Jake Hutt intention).

In which case I can see how it might feel closed at impact. If you are delivering the shaft mostly vertical with a bowed/flat wrist it's going to feel very shut, if you simply turn from there and lean the shaft you will see how it squares up

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For me it’s up and down.  Think JT.  Which consequently is the best swing in golf with an iron in my opinion. 

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12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

For me it’s up and down.  Think JT.  Which consequently is the best swing in golf with an iron in my opinion. 

Morikawa is pretty salty.  

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22 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Morikawa is pretty salty.  

Yep. I Swanee I almost mentioned him too.  But am not AS familiar with his swing.  But I recalled it being upright and down the line in premise.  We all rotate. But some hit the extreme inside of the ball and some hit more of the back or even outside for a big cut .  And of course the longer the club the more laid down it has to be. 
 

 I crowd the ball and never fear an S word.  Lol.  

 

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I see it up and down but I could use some more around at times it seems


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When I am swinging bad, it's because I try to do the 'around' portion too much with my arms.  What is helpful to me is to think that the arms provide the vertical element while the body, (shoulder feel for me), provides the horizontal element.  Basically, you don't swing the club around with your arms, you move it around with the body.

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17 hours ago, juststeve said:

A swing is a back and forth motion.  The up and down and round and round components are incidental

 

Steve

 

Understood (kind of). But a pendulum is back and forth and up and down, with no "around." If I think too "around" for the "back and forth" motion, I tend to get my arms stuck. The "up" portion of my swing is always coupled with a turn, but for someone who is used to getting his arms stuck, the up part can feel like I get the club too upright and disconnected, even if that's not quite the reality.

 

Also, when seeing Rose do his pre-shot routine/drill, I'm reminded that the "up and down" are NOT incidental for many people -- even for some Tour pros.

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DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS.  As I swing the club the image I hold in my mind is one of swinging the club away from the target and past my body, then toward the target and past my body.  To be sure there are up and down components to the motion as well as round and round components, but I don't try to control those. That's what I meant by incidental., 

 

Steve

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On 4/8/2021 at 4:37 PM, KMeloney said:

 

Understood (kind of). But a pendulum is back and forth and up and down, with no "around." If I think too "around" for the "back and forth" motion, I tend to get my arms stuck. The "up" portion of my swing is always coupled with a turn, but for someone who is used to getting his arms stuck, the up part can feel like I get the club too upright and disconnected, even if that's not quite the reality.

 

Also, when seeing Rose do his pre-shot routine/drill, I'm reminded that the "up and down" are NOT incidental for many people -- even for some Tour pros.

The Justin Rose drill was the absolute game changer for me. Combined with proper wrist conditions and pivot it's the move that makes the transition work. 

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My swing has been more round and about so that is what I'm used to.  I've tried playing with a more up and down swing, but it just didn't work out for me.  I have shallowed out my swing quite a bit over the years as I would get very steep in my younger years.  I would never suggest switching to what you're not comfortable with unless you absolutely want to and willing to put in the work. 

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