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Ball forward = pull draw? (Should be a fade?)


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Has anyone dealt with this issue?

For most people moving the ball forward increases the chances of a fade but I cannot avoid shutting the face down when the ball is forward in my stance. Like even standing here holding the club I cannot picture how to keep the club face from shutting down. When the ball is in middle of the stance the face is square and as the ball moves forward the face closes on it's natural arc. The same thing is true in reverse, as the ball moves back the club face opens. This is with all of my clubs. I have an inside to inside swing and I'm a solid ball striker (2 handicap, 118mph driver).

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Are we talking irons or driver? Ball position alone isn't likely to shift path enough left to hit a fade if you are known to get well under it and hit big draws. 

How flexible is your left shoulder? As my left shoulder became stiffer, I couldn't maintain the open face....

3 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

You might be coming in closed to path . Which is the draw that's not good

Closed to path is 100% the issue but the question was about why that is happening as I move the ball forward and why other people can tee the ball way forward and it only makes them more open to path instead of closed.

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13 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

Closed to path is 100% the issue but the question was about why that is happening as I move the ball forward and why other people can tee the ball way forward and it only makes them more open to path instead of closed.

Perhaps you are coming into impact with an open face, so need time at the bottom to square it. Back in your stance and it hasn't fully square yet so it squirts right, forward in the stance you have a bit more time and over do it and ends up closed to the target.

 

If you have a pretty extreme swing direction, the ball position change isn't enough to shift path left (especially if it's still an iron off the ground)

Edited by Krt22
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2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Perhaps you are coming into impact with an open face, so need time at the bottom to square it. Back in your stance and it hasn't fully square yet so it squirts right, forward in the stance you have a bit more time and over do it and ends up closed to the target.

 

100% but why isn't this the case for everyone? Nobody keeps it totally square for more than a split second at impact. The face is shutting for everyone yet moving the ball forward = more fade for most people. 

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1 minute ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

100% but why isn't this the case for everyone? Nobody keeps it totally square for more than a split second at impact. The face is shutting for everyone yet moving the ball forward = more fade for most people. 

I edited my post to cover this, most ams don't have an extreme in to out path and not all compensate the same way. If someone can go from a draw to a fade with ball position alone, they likely have a much more neutral swing direction than someone severely under it.

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20 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

Closed to path is 100% the issue but the question was about why that is happening as I move the ball forward and why other people can tee the ball way forward and it only makes them more open to path instead of closed.

 

It's likely that your rate of closure increases, the further passed the point of your release that you have the ball placed.

 

Have a tried a "hold off" release?  With the ball forward, it can feel like you're trying to hit a pull block

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6 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I edited my post to cover this, most ams don't have an extreme in to out path and not all compensate the same way. If someone can go from a draw to a fade with ball position alone, they likely have a much more neutral swing direction than someone severely under it.

 

I'm definitely from the inside but I also rotate hard and exit left. I've heard it referred to as an in to in path. As the ball moves up in my stance my path shifts significantly left (good) but the face also closes more and more (bad). The only way I can hit a forward ball with a neutral face is to essentially hit a weak flop shot instead of the powerful pull fade I'd prefer. 

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2 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

It's likely that your rate of closure increases, the further passed the point of your release that you have the ball placed.

 

Have a tried a "hold off" release?  With the ball forward, it can feel like you're trying to hit a pull block

I have and I can do it but it costs 5-10mph with the driver and doesn't feel good. I'd love to be able to rotate and release as hard as possible without the club face shutting down instantly. 

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1 minute ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

I'm definitely from the inside but I also rotate hard and exit left. I've heard it referred to as an in to in path. As the ball moves up in my stance my path shifts significantly left (good) but the face also closes more and more (bad). The only way I can hit a forward ball with a neutral face is to essentially hit a weak flop shot instead of the powerful pull fade I'd prefer. 

Are we talking irons or driver? Ball position alone isn't likely to shift path enough left to hit a fade if you are known to get well under it and hit big draws. 

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7 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

I have and I can do it but it costs 5-10mph with the driver and doesn't feel good. I'd love to be able to rotate and release as hard as possible without the club face shutting down instantly. 

 

Have you tried the approach of Lee Trevino and Fred Couples...and others, where you just play a push fade.  This way you don't have to move the ball further forward than normal.

 

If you get it right a "fade from the inside" can be a very powerful.

 

The other thing is to check your impact pattern on the face in detail, because any impact towards the toe with driver, fairways, hybrids... even a little bit, can be very difficult to fade

Edited by Cwebb
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a pull means the face is left at impact and the draw means that the face is closed to that path.  My guess is that when you move the club forward, you are actually shifting your path a bit out to in to try to reach the ball, (you are coming over the top instead of staying behind and inside).  If you want to hit the fade, play the ball in your normal position, aim the clubface where you want the ball to start, set up left and swing further left than where the face is pointing, (assuming you are a righty).

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How flexible is your left shoulder? As my left shoulder became stiffer, I couldn't maintain the open face....

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1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

100% but why isn't this the case for everyone? Nobody keeps it totally square for more than a split second at impact. The face is shutting for everyone yet moving the ball forward = more fade for most people. 

 

This part isn't true. For most slicers, the slice is from an open-faced wipe across the ball. The face isn't naturally closing for them. 

 

But, to you main point, I fight the same issue. I can't hit a ball-forward fade. I have to put the ball back more and set up with my hands higher, and even then my tendency will be to shut close the face if I don't fight it.

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My miss when I'm trying to play an intentional fade is the pull draw....or a dead straight pull.  My "stock shot" (read as set up square, swing square natural ball flight) is a slight draw.  So my impact is closed to path in my stock shot.  The farther I move the ball up in my stance with my stock shot the farther left I pull it, still closed to path.  When I set up for a fade, because of my normal setup I have to really open up (or it feels like it anyway) my path to face angle to get any sort of fade flight.  This I am learning is more from my grip than anything, relatively strong about 2 1/2 knuckles on my top hand.  

 

I played with this the other day on the range with my driver.  Ball inside front heel, face square to target line, feet square and parallel to target line for my stock shot...nice little push draw.  Ball in middle of front foot, face square, feet square, stock shot....straight on the target line with a draw flight off target left.  Any farther up in my stance was bad contact and required a modified swing...no go territory.  Ball approx 1 ball back in stance from inside front heel, face square, feet square, stock shot....little push fade missed right.

 

Ball inside front heel, face square, feet open to target line, stock swing along feet line....slight pull fade but mostly a straight pull down my foot line, miss slightly right.  Ball in middle of front foot, face square to target line, feet open, stock swing along feet line, dead pull draw, miss way left.

 

In any of these cases if I weakened my grip by one knuckle on my top hand, everything became a little less left/draw and a little more straight/fade.  

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16 hours ago, STL_Baller said:

My miss when I'm trying to play an intentional fade is the pull draw....or a dead straight pull.  My "stock shot" (read as set up square, swing square natural ball flight) is a slight draw.  So my impact is closed to path in my stock shot.  The farther I move the ball up in my stance with my stock shot the farther left I pull it, still closed to path.  When I set up for a fade, because of my normal setup I have to really open up (or it feels like it anyway) my path to face angle to get any sort of fade flight.  This I am learning is more from my grip than anything, relatively strong about 2 1/2 knuckles on my top hand.  

 

I played with this the other day on the range with my driver.  Ball inside front heel, face square to target line, feet square and parallel to target line for my stock shot...nice little push draw.  Ball in middle of front foot, face square, feet square, stock shot....straight on the target line with a draw flight off target left.  Any farther up in my stance was bad contact and required a modified swing...no go territory.  Ball approx 1 ball back in stance from inside front heel, face square, feet square, stock shot....little push fade missed right.

 

Ball inside front heel, face square, feet open to target line, stock swing along feet line....slight pull fade but mostly a straight pull down my foot line, miss slightly right.  Ball in middle of front foot, face square to target line, feet open, stock swing along feet line, dead pull draw, miss way left.

 

In any of these cases if I weakened my grip by one knuckle on my top hand, everything became a little less left/draw and a little more straight/fade.  

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. My grip is only slightly strong (most would call it neutral) but if I'm not trying to hold it off then it shuts down pretty hard as I release and the further forward the ball gets the more it shuts down. I just hate the feeling of "holding it off" because it's uncomfortable and costs significant speed. How do guys hit fades with a full release?

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24 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. My grip is only slightly strong (most would call it neutral) but if I'm not trying to hold it off then it shuts down pretty hard as I release and the further forward the ball gets the more it shuts down. I just hate the feeling of "holding it off" because it's uncomfortable and costs significant speed. How do guys hit fades with a full release?

Change the orientation of the club in your hands.  Grip it so that the face is still open slightly when you release.

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20 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

I'm definitely from the inside but I also rotate hard and exit left. I've heard it referred to as an in to in path. As the ball moves up in my stance my path shifts significantly left (good) but the face also closes more and more (bad). The only way I can hit a forward ball with a neutral face is to essentially hit a weak flop shot instead of the powerful pull fade I'd prefer. 

How is this bad? The face follows the path. If you start swinging more left, the face is going to go more left. 

 

Fix the underlying mechanics, not a band-aid with ball position.  

 

Assuming centered contact, if you want to hit a pull fade then you want to have a left face and a more left path. If you're pull drawing it then you just have them flipped where face is more left of path. 

 

It's a curve and you're further forward on the curve, everything is going to go more left. 

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