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In one of Phil mickelson 2021 masters interviews, he says he considers going game improvement irons  around Augusta because high and spinny/attacking is usually shot of choice. But he uses less forgiving clubs at a lot of other venues cause he is hitting “knock down shots”... taking a couple clubs extra, and taking some speed off it to keep trajectory and spin low so wind and such is less of a factor. 
 

anybody here playing two sets of irons for this reason, or have any thoughts? Are there any other pros that have suggested this philosophy?

 

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This just seems like Phil being Phil and over thinking something.  He is talented enough that if he wanted to hit it higher, he would just hit it higher.  It is almost like trying to give yourself an

Phil is the ultimate WRXer.   That said, he actually has the skill to pull this off. I'd say there may be a handful of guys on here who actually have enough skill to do this kind of thing.

Of course.  Any decent player isn’t hitting wedges hard.    Thinking back to yesterday’s round.   I hit 2 wedges hard.  Or “ full “.    You cannot control spin taking full swipes at more loft than abo

Phil is the ultimate WRXer.

 

That said, he actually has the skill to pull this off. I'd say there may be a handful of guys on here who actually have enough skill to do this kind of thing.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Phil is the ultimate WRXer.

 

That said, he actually has the skill to pull this off. I'd say there may be a handful of guys on here who actually have enough skill to do this kind of thing.

Pull what off? Knock down shots? Or switch between sets?

 

 I feel most scratch/plus cappers have at least some grasp of it how to do both of those things. Yea def not majority but good amount of peeps I’m sure. 
 

 my question is more around the equip to pull it off. SGI clubs typically launch higher, spin more. So in theory, having two sets makes sense if u play wind some days, no wind others, right?

Edited by extrastiff

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1 hour ago, extrastiff said:

Pull what off? Knock down shots? Or switch between sets?

 

 I feel most scratch/plus cappers have at least some grasp of it how to do both of those things. Yea def not majority but good amount of peeps I’m sure. 
 

 my question is more around the equip to pull it off. SGI clubs typically launch higher, spin more. So in theory, having two sets makes sense if u play wind some days, no wind others, right?

I meant to pull it off two very different swing styles consistently.

 

One or two knock downs in a round is fine. Being able to keep switch from a natural, grooved, swing to a completely different one from round to round and keep it up is much harder.

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1 hour ago, jvincent said:

I meant to pull it off two very different swing styles consistently.

 

One or two knock downs in a round is fine. Being able to keep switch from a natural, grooved, swing to a completely different one from round to round and keep it up is much harder.


Agreed

 

Very few people in the world of golf can do this and purposely have two bags to do it 

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This just seems like Phil being Phil and over thinking something.  He is talented enough that if he wanted to hit it higher, he would just hit it higher.  It is almost like trying to give yourself an excuse for poor play with the clubs he is supposed to be the most comfortable with.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jvincent said:

I meant to pull it off two very different swing styles consistently.

 

One or two knock downs in a round is fine. Being able to keep switch from a natural, grooved, swing to a completely different one from round to round and keep it up is much harder.

Ok. 
 

If anyone has experience with seeing/playing different bags in windy conditions let’s hear it!

Edited by extrastiff

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I have more success with smaller short irons (7-PW) ... and I hit a load of knockdowns ... it’s my preferred shot inside 155

 

i have 9 sets of irons right now but no full set of SGI

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I definitely have a few clubs that I'll switch around if I know it's going to be a blustery day, one of my favorite courses can get winds some days of about 30km/hr blowing constant with gusts up by to 60km/hr. The 15° fairway wood gets knocked out for either a 13° or a 12.5°, and I may drop a wedge to put in a P790 UDI just to cut under the wind, use a driver and accidently launch it too high, you'll stand around waiting for it to land a few holes away once the wind is done with it. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, PEI_Golfer said:

This just seems like Phil being Phil and over thinking something.  He is talented enough that if he wanted to hit it higher, he would just hit it higher.  It is almost like trying to give yourself an excuse for poor play with the clubs he is supposed to be the most comfortable with.

We all agree no one is just “mistake free.” we also all agree launch and results are better with sgi clubs when mistake are made. And it seems many you tubers and golfwrxers agree the idea that blades offer shapability that chunky clubs do not is a myth. Unless we are talking low-shots. 
 

so it seems they only thing we don’t all agree on is that plus handicappers can play a kids set if they want to. The idea that Pros cannot play well with two different head-types with identical shaft/grip/weight characteristics seems far-fetched to me.

And the statement that not all of them can hit great knock-down shots is an obvious one. But many of them can, and a lot of people win in the wind because of it. 

 

here are my questions for the room

 

-do people think any + handicaps would have a hard time switching bags around? I have not found it to be something that destroys my scores or anything

 

-do you beleive if Phil wanted to hit the knockdown with sgi clubs, he could? Basically,do you think sgi clubs could offer pros a better option, If they could hypothetically swing as effectively as their current set? Or is his point that they don’t translate in a lot of situations valid?

-would you ever consider a bag setup specifically for weather/environmental  conditions?

 

Edited by extrastiff

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, LUXOR54 said:

I definitely have a few clubs that I'll switch around if I know it's going to be a blustery day, one of my favorite courses can get winds some days of about 30km/hr blowing constant with gusts up by to 60km/hr. The 15° fairway wood gets knocked out for either a 13° or a 12.5°, and I may drop a wedge to put in a P790 UDI just to cut under the wind, use a driver and accidently launch it too high, you'll stand around waiting for it to land a few holes away once the wind is done with it. 

For sure, I know iron for 5 wood, changing lofts, driver shafts, all those are common switches. I’m thinking more about the irons and wedges, using equipment that is either more forgiving on nice days or more flighted on tough days. That type of thing

Edited by extrastiff

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11 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

I have more success with smaller short irons (7-PW) ... and I hit a load of knockdowns ... it’s my preferred shot inside 155

 

i have 9 sets of irons right now but no full set of SGI

So you have not really tried knockdowns with sgi is what I’m getting from that. 
 

I just switched to them, and have decided I love them. About to try some knockdown practice stuff on gcquad tomorrow, see if it is difficult

 

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I can hit it high and “knock it down” with my clubs. Only 1 set needed. 
 

lots of range time fixes this issue 

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A look at Phil's 2020 bag showed a couple of Epic Forged irons (5i and 6i from the looks of it) in his bag with some Apex Pro Forged cavity backs from, I think, 7i to PW. He also carried an 18* X-forged UT driving iron*. So, I'm guessing that by GI he is referring to the Epic Forged irons, which are hollow bodied, or something similar to them.

 

I don't have a ton of experience with hollow body irons, but I don't think they're the easiest to hit knock-downs with. A very good golfer I play occasionally with recently bought a set of the TM 790 irons, and he said the problem was they went too far and he had trouble controlling distance. Previously, I think he was playing the Cally X-22 irons, which are GI or SGI, so he was essentially comparing the hollow 790s to them.

 

I've hit mostly hollow-bodied long irons, and I find them to be quite low spin, so if the short irons are similarly low spin (compared to similarly lofted cavities or blade short irons), then I imagine it would make knock down shots a little unpredictable.

 

But, this is Phil we're talking about. One of the best of best. I'm sure he could manage it.

 

*Interesting set-up, but then again, I'd expect nothing more from him. 

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44 minutes ago, extrastiff said:

For sure, I know iron for 5 wood, changing lofts, driver shafts, all those are common switches. I’m thinking more about the irons and wedges, using equipment that is either more forgiving on nice days or more flighted on tough days. That type of thing

 

If it's windy, I might choose irons with heavier shafts, either S400 or even X100. 

 

If I'm playing a course where I know the greens are firm, I'll try to bag a 60* wedge, which usually means playing an older iron set with a 49/50* PW.

 

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Phil's a thinker and tinkerer.  I feel as though on this one, he's overthinking it.  He's already won 3 Masters with mbs if my memory serves me right.  Why change?  Yes the GI irons will help him hit higher and possibly more spin, but has been a phenomenal iron player for most of his career.  I did see that the course is set up to be more difficult this year because of DJ sooooooo...........

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11 hours ago, extrastiff said:

Pull what off? Knock down shots? Or switch between sets?

 

 I feel most scratch/plus cappers have at least some grasp of it how to do both of those things. Yea def not majority but good amount of peeps I’m sure. 
 

 my question is more around the equip to pull it off. SGI clubs typically launch higher, spin more. So in theory, having two sets makes sense if u play wind some days, no wind others, right?

SGI clubs should fly higher but they spin less than "Players" clubs. 

 

I remember listening to Padraig Harrington on a podcast and he said he had 2 sets of irons and the reasoning was 1 set was designed to spin more than the other based on course set up.

 

Edited by Simmer7
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I play on a course that is a links style course right off of the Gulf of Mexico...Palmilla Beach in Port Aransas.

 

The wind is a constant and every day is knock down day.

 

Hitting a knock down is not rocket surgery...just play the ball a bit back, take one or two more clubs, 3/4 smooth swing and it is done.

 

 

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The disagreement isn't whether a tour pro can hit SGI or GI clubs well, whatever that means. It's that many choose not to.

 

Having stock shots you can repeat under pressure are key. That requires trust in the clubs.

 

You think pros check into the tour vans and tell them " just give me a stock set"?

 

Generally saying every tour pro could

play any type of club successfully on tour is a blanket statement that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

 

Tiger went through how iterations to get his set just right?

 

 

 

Edited by tannyhoban
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59 minutes ago, tannyhoban said:

The disagreement isn't whether a tour pro can hit SGI or GI clubs well, whatever that means. It's that many choose not to.

 

Having stock shots you can repeat under pressure are key. That requires trust in the clubs.

 

You think pros check into the tour vans and tell them " just give me a stock set"?

 

Generally saying every tour pro could

play any type of club successfully on tour is a blanket statement that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

 

Tiger went through how iterations to get his set just right?

 

 

 

no one is asking if they could or could not hit them. I’m asking if anyone has experience hitting knockdowns with sgi, or if they think they launch too high to make that a good approach. 
 

Just seems like a useful thing to consider, irons that play easier. As long as they can be played in the wind. If not, having another set seems smart.  I have not had any issue switching between sets with identical shafts and grips and weights. I doubt Phil does either, with that in mind. I’m not playing for millions, but do not find myself analyzing what club head I’m using when I step up to a pressure shot. 
 

I also have not really tried knockdown shots with the sgi clubs, so we shall see. 
 

No one said they could play any type of club “on tour,” or that they would play with a stock set.  But the idea that they could not simply switch out head design, such as Phil is suggesting, does not seem that ludicrous. 
 

now if seems your argument is “it’s such a high level, only the “most comfortable” set will do”. I get that argument. 

Edited by extrastiff

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1 hour ago, OsnolaKinnard said:

I play on a course that is a links style course right off of the Gulf of Mexico...Palmilla Beach in Port Aransas.

 

The wind is a constant and every day is knock down day.

 

Hitting a knock down is not rocket surgery...just play the ball a bit back, take one or two more clubs, 3/4 smooth swing and it is done.

 

 

It seems We all agree that knockdowns are not that difficult. But not the point of the thread 🙂

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9 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

A look at Phil's 2020 bag showed a couple of Epic Forged irons (5i and 6i from the looks of it) in his bag with some Apex Pro Forged cavity backs from, I think, 7i to PW. He also carried an 18* X-forged UT driving iron*. So, I'm guessing that by GI he is referring to the Epic Forged irons, which are hollow bodied, or something similar to them.

 

I don't have a ton of experience with hollow body irons, but I don't think they're the easiest to hit knock-downs with. A very good golfer I play occasionally with recently bought a set of the TM 790 irons, and he said the problem was they went too far and he had trouble controlling distance. Previously, I think he was playing the Cally X-22 irons, which are GI or SGI, so he was essentially comparing the hollow 790s to them.

 

I've hit mostly hollow-bodied long irons, and I find them to be quite low spin, so if the short irons are similarly low spin (compared to similarly lofted cavities or blade short irons), then I imagine it would make knock down shots a little unpredictable.

 

But, this is Phil we're talking about. One of the best of best. I'm sure he could manage it.

 

*Interesting set-up, but then again, I'd expect nothing more from him. 

No I think Phil would only use the sgi if he did not have to hit knock downs at all, was my understanding at least

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2 hours ago, Simmer7 said:

SGI clubs should fly higher but they spin less than "Players" clubs. 

 

I remember listening to Padraig Harrington on a podcast and he said he had 2 sets of irons and the reasoning was 1 set was designed to spin more than the other based on course set up.

 

Spin is getting closer on certain models, but also I think my swing speed keeps spin pretty high on both based on really nonscientific testing. Not sure if that is a real thing.

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9 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Phil's a thinker and tinkerer.  I feel as though on this one, he's overthinking it.  He's already won 3 Masters with mbs if my memory serves me right.  Why change?  Yes the GI irons will help him hit higher and possibly more spin, but has been a phenomenal iron player for most of his career.  I did see that the course is set up to be more difficult this year because of DJ sooooooo...........

Why change? The same reason Kevin na, Rickie, sneds,Bryson etc play cavity backs. Plus he’s not getting any younger.  I’m not yet his age and I definitely can appreciate not having to swing very hard for some good distance and forgiveness and height and spin

Edited by extrastiff
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1 minute ago, extrastiff said:

No I think Phil would only use the sgi if he did not have to hit knock downs at all, was my understanding at least

 

Ah, yeah, I see what you mean.

 

Interesting concept. I probably wouldn't go to GI all the way down to PW, but I could see the value of them in the 4i to, say 8i even. 

 

 

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Just now, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Ah, yeah, I see what you mean.

 

Interesting concept. I probably wouldn't go to GI all the way down to PW, but I could see the value of them in the 4i to, say 8i even. 

 

 

I feel you. I’m still waiting for some of my pitching wedge shots to come down. 

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This comes with the caveat that I'm not scratch, but a mere seven-ish player...

 

I'm under the impression that SGI/GI irons hit with lower spin, not more.  They do seem to hit the ball higher, though.  Source is personal experience on launch monitors, with whatever CBs I've hit in comparison to whatever blades I've hit.  <shrug>

 

I haven't gone the Phull Phil, and altered my sets for conditions, but I *did* switch from Mizuno MS-11 blades to a GI iron, Eye2+, specifically because of spin (amusingly, I ignored launch angle).  I was accustomed to getting killed in the wind, and on a lark, I checked out a set of Eye2+ in my specs.  The Eye2+ spun the ball considerably less, 6 iron at 5900-6100 rpm vs 7000-7200 rpm. 

 

The result was essentially a 12 month long version of an incomplete application of PMick's idea; I played the Pings for that 12 month period.  I got great wind results, I found I could ignore breezes I had to club for with the Mizunos.  I found I hit the ball higher, but the lower spin prevented me from getting crushed by that wind.  I found I hit the ball farther, loft for loft, due to the lower spin and higher launch.  Up to a point, which brings me to...

 

I found an increased distance gap between my 9i and PW.  My 9i went farther, but my PW largely did not.  I didn't investigate the reasons, but my supposition is that it was related to the increased launch angle finally getting to a point where it cost me a bit.  Spent a lot of time working on that, never got it ironed out.

 

Also had a fair adjustment period with the larger clubheads of the Pings.  It took me a while to get to the point where I would not toe hit everything; the larger clubhead made me set up farther from the ball.  Funny Human Tricks.

 

Amusingly, in spite of the better wind play, my scores didn't improve.  Also amusingly, I found my scores DID improve when I switched away from the Pings, to Ram Tour Grinds.  Go figure.

 

TLDR...  it can work, but can create other issues, likely player dependent.

 

edited to add:  I *did* try a short term version of this a few years ago, a couple times taking the Pings out on windy days.  One round was OK, but the other was a complete disaster, possibly because of the above mentioned mental adjustments I have to make in switching to a larger clubhead.

 

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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4 hours ago, extrastiff said:

no one is asking if they could or could not hit them. I’m asking if anyone has experience hitting knockdowns with sgi, or if they think they launch too high to make that a good approach. 
 

Just seems like a useful thing to consider, irons that play easier. As long as they can be played in the wind. If not, having another set seems smart.  I have not had any issue switching between sets with identical shafts and grips and weights. I doubt Phil does either, with that in mind. I’m not playing for millions, but do not find myself analyzing what club head I’m using when I step up to a pressure shot. 
 

I also have not really tried knockdown shots with the sgi clubs, so we shall see. 
 

No one said they could play any type of club “on tour,” or that they would play with a stock set.  But the idea that they could not simply switch out head design, such as Phil is suggesting, does not seem that ludicrous. 
 

now if seems your argument is “it’s such a high level, only the “most comfortable” set will do”. I get that argument. 

That is essentially what I am saying. They make a choice and stick with it.

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I'm not a "good" golfer and play GI irons. However, when at work demonstrating to a group how Topgolf scoring works my go-to shot is a knock down. It shows the group (usually non golfers) that you don't need a full swing to move the ball and be accurate. My go-to shot is a half swing punch/knock down with an 8i to the center of the green target, 90 yards. I can nail this shot all day long. 

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