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LENGTHEN 11, NOT 13 AT AUGUSTA NATIONAL


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23 hours ago, Krt22 said:

The soul of the game resides in the ether between the winning score and par. If young guys beat old standing records, old guys get grumpy that the golfers of yore are being shown in a poor light. It's hard to cling onto the romantic idea that golfers in the past were better "players" than current pros, when the scores keep falling. The artistic nature of the game is a risk, if we lose that, we lose it all and might as well play pickle ball!

Unless they are old guys from the tour? During the interviews yesterday they discussed that with Raymond Floyd. He explained how there are so many great players that can win today compared to the couple dozen from his day. He added that there are guys not even making it to the big tour, think Koran Ferry and such, that could win on tour.

Jack has often said the same.

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Absolutely horrible idea

Leave the course alone.  Why do people care so much about the winning score?  

I've always though they should add a ferris wheel to the 8th hole , and the 14th you should have to play only with your feet, and the 16th should have 70's disco music and you should hit your shot wea

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Unless are old guys are from the tour. During the interviews yesterday they discussed that with Raymond Floyd. He explained how there are so many great players that can win today compared to the couple dozen from his day. He added that there are guys not even making it to the big tour, think Koran Ferry and such, that could win on tour.

Jack has often said the same.

Don’t agree with Raymond. Few of those on the KF can win on Tour let alone the ones who can’t keep their privileges, let alone not even get there. Hyperbole from him, IMO. 

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28 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Don’t agree with Raymond. Few of those on the KF can win on Tour let alone the ones who can’t keep their privileges, let alone not even get there. Hyperbole from him, IMO. 

Did you misread what I wrote? Because you agree with Raymond. He didn’t say the whole KF tour could win on the big tour but that the possible winners goes that deep.

 

let’s compare how many players are within 2.5 strokes in scoring average at years end.

2021 175

and it drops....slowly at first then speeds up.....we get to 1980 and it’s just 83. Guessing in the 60’s and 70’s it’s even fewer. I skipped over season where a player was crazy good....think Tiger. Almost no one was close to him. But when the are bunched up the difference from top to bottom has gotten much narrower. And it doesn’t matter if some of that is equipment driven. All that matters in professional golf is score.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Bad9 said:

Why 1991? Why not go back to the way it was designed?

Because I was responding to a post that said scoring average had not really changed for the last 20 - 30 years

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On 4/8/2021 at 3:54 AM, Hankshank said:

This is a Kapok Kid problem (Catch-22) when we got the two worst finishing holes compared to the rest of the last 9 on the course in golf. Party over after 16th green. All probably because of the 9 hole switch.

Don't know about the OP's 11/13 idea.  I like 13 as is.  But, I've always wondered about holes 17 and 18 myself.  They are kind of a let down after the rollercoaster ride from holes 10-16. For all of TPTB's willingness to modify the course over time at any cost, why haven't they made radical changes to 17 and 18?  Ideas? Perhaps a stream that runs down the left side of the 18 and 17 fairways from 18 green to 16 pond.  Or perhaps, plant a new Eisenhower tree 100 yards further down the fairway from its original location on 17.   

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42 minutes ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

Don't know about the OP's 11/13 idea.  I like 13 as is.  But, I've always wondered about holes 17 and 18 myself.  They are kind of a let down after the rollercoaster ride from holes 10-16. For all of TPTB's willingness to modify the course over time at any cost, why haven't they made radical changes to 17 and 18?  Ideas? Perhaps a stream that runs down the left side of the 18 and 17 fairways from 18 green to 16 pond.  Or perhaps, plant a new Eisenhower tree 100 yards further down the fairway from its original location on 17.   

When the ball didn't go as far, 17 and 18 were strong holes.  Rather than changing the golf course, they should change the equipment.

 

Start with COR.  As a condition of competition, bring it back to where it used to be - around .75.  Modern thin faced titanium has a trampoline effect - like a tennis racquet.  Golf rules have always stipulated that there should be no spring-like effect in the club face, but the rules makers ignored the spring face of titanium until they actually discovered that there is an effect.  Rule it back.

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On 4/8/2021 at 8:42 AM, tiderider said:

seriously? ... disco music? ... at augusta? ... 

If that is the best argument against it, I think we should go ahead and give it a try. The player with the best moves in the dance off could get some sort of bonus - like a free throw, and it doesn't have to be his ball. He could throw a playing partners at any time.

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20 hours ago, elwhippy said:

The 11th is a beast as a four but would be a weak par 5. The 13th is an amazing hole. Would you stick a spoiler on a 250GTO?

 

The 11th lengthened 50 yards as a 5 would basically be 15 with the bail out right instead of long. I don't think it would be that weak compared to 2 and 8, which although long are pretty straightforward 2½ shotters for these guys.

 

(The resulting loss of safety to those on 12 tee is a different problem)

Edited by James the Hogan Fan
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10 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

The 11th lengthened 50 yards as a 5 would basically be 15 with the bail out right instead of long. I don't think it would be that weak compared to 2 and 8, which although long are pretty straightforward 2½ shotters for these guys.

 

(The resulting loss of safety to those on 12 tee is a different problem)

Adding 50 yards, and to build a new tee you might have 50 more yards from the far back of the tee would be a waste of time.  50 yards and turning it into a par 5 would be a joke.  There are few similarities between 11 and 15 - elevation changes completely different, fairways different, greens different, shots required different, etc. 

 

Add yards, ignore the hole design, green design, etc., just add yards and add a number to par - everybody's an architect - just add a couple yards, lol.

 

Thank goodness AN knows how to maintain one of the 2 or 3 best courses in the world.

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Congrats. You’ve earned a nomination for the dumbest thread (let alone post) of 2021. 

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4 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Adding 50 yards, and to build a new tee you might have 50 more yards from the far back of the tee would be a waste of time.  50 yards and turning it into a par 5 would be a joke.  There are few similarities between 11 and 15 - elevation changes completely different, fairways different, greens different, shots required different, etc. 

 

Add yards, ignore the hole design, green design, etc., just add yards and add a number to par - everybody's an architect - just add a couple yards, lol.

 

Thank goodness AN knows how to maintain one of the 2 or 3 best courses in the world.

 

Well that's a pretty harsh rebuke. "There are few similarities between 11 and 15". Are there? Granted I've never been there but they seem awfully similar; long downhill approach to a green guarded by water. Ideal tee shot is a fade so as to not have the trees on the left obstructing the green. This year 11 played to 4.51 and 15 to 4.71, so they seem pretty similar in that regard as well.

 

"Ignore the green design" the current green design is "hit it to the front right regardless of hole location unless you're insane."

 

I don't think I'd lengthen it in the context of the rest of the course, but I think in isolation the hole would work as a 5. 

 

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I think it's a dumb idea. Augusta's best defense is her greens, not distance. If they brown out the greens even the short holes can be disastrous. The beauty of the Masters is the possibility of heroic golf on the back 9 due to #13 and #15 being gettable. They'd be stupid to ever change that. 

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Here's the thing, the winner of the tournament is lowest total score.  If you shoot a 272 and the next guy is 274, you win. Doesn't matter if it's a par 72 or par 68 course. Everyone plays the same holes.

 

This year of all years should prove that the course doesn't need to be touched. Throw out Hideki and this year was tough. Thursday there were what, 10 players under par? That's US Open type of numbers there. Bottom line is the course can play extremely tough and I just don't see the need to keep messing with it. If they want to back up 13, I won't complain. But part of the beauty of 13 and 15 is that you can go for them. You can make up ground if you hit the shots. But at their current length, nothing is a gimme. There's an advantage to making them "short" as it's enticing.

 

Hideki went for it yesterday on 15 and put it in the drink. Back him up 30 more yards and he's laying up all day. It's just enough to tempt him to go in that situation. Besides, that green is tough enough to hold right now and even getting over the water in 2 doesn't guarantee a birdie. The course has defenses built in, and typically winning scores are always around -12 give or take.

 

 

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On 4/7/2021 at 5:28 PM, markakirchner said:

why lengthen hole 13, when it would be simply easier to leave the hole alone and turn it into a very hard par 4. then lengthen number 11 and make that a greater risk/reward par 5 hole. bring the water hazard more into play on 2nd/3rd shot. still remains a par 72 course. plenty of room behind 11 tee (at least it looks like it).

 

13 is a great risk/reward hole. No reason to touch it.

 

11 needs some modifications. Everyone bails out right now -- there needs to be more penalty over there. And to bring the pond back into play. The mounding is not enough. 

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I would shorten 11. Just like 13 and 15 are tempting after a good drive, 11 should tease the player enough to try for birdie. A 160-170 (9 to 7iron) yard 2nd shot to that green when you're 3 back on Sunday would be enticing. As it is now it's a boring 2 putt even after a spectacular drive and 2nd.

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36 minutes ago, ryanmonceaux said:

 

13 is a great risk/reward hole. No reason to touch it.

 

11 needs some modifications. Everyone bails out right now -- there needs to be more penalty over there. And to bring the pond back into play. The mounding is not enough. 

Bailing out right means they are missing the green, and depending on pin placements, that's far from an easy up and down, the mounds serve their purpose well. 

 

Part of the problem is all the trees they planted up the right to take away the option/angle from the right side of the fairway which basically disappeared and to your point did take away approaches with more danger where the pond is concerned.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Hairpie said:

I think it's a dumb idea. Augusta's best defense is her greens, not distance. If they brown out the greens even the short holes can be disastrous. The beauty of the Masters is the possibility of heroic golf on the back 9 due to #13 and #15 being gettable. They'd be stupid to ever change that. 

 

One of the commentators said that a player told him that there were 9 holes that were "hold on for a par" and 9 where you could get aggressive and card a birdie or better.  To your point it made for compelling golf, especially when you take into account the size of lead that HM had at the beginning of the day.  He didn't ever really fall apart and yet there were some pressure put on him. 

 

If you had that sort of lead with a US Open type set up where darn near every hole you are holding on for par, it kills the ability to get back into the tournament.

 

I always forget there is water behind 15 until there is someone in the water behind 15.  Aesthetically it doesn't match up to some other holes IMO though.

 

At 13 I think it would be more interesting with more junk on the right hand side past the dog leg.  Now guys can hit their draw but if they push it a hair it just goes through the fairway and not into any real danger.  Problem with that is they park a bunch of patrons up there and it would kill some sight lines.  I was always lead to believe that Mac and Jones wanted to reward a running draw played through there.  Also, there is some sweet spot flat spot where you have a better lie to go after the green in two with a wood (back in the day).

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On 4/8/2021 at 6:14 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

Don’t agree with Raymond. Few of those on the KF can win on Tour let alone the ones who can’t keep their privileges, let alone not even get there. Hyperbole from him, IMO. 

I agree somewhat.  There are more guys who have the game to win, but you don't see that many newcomers breaking through with wins on the PGA Tour.  It's the mental part that separates the winners.  Guys like Raymond, who had it, often don't understand why everybody doesn't have it.  Tony Finau has just as much game as Dustin Johnson if you watch them on the range, but one's a winner and the other is constantly a runner up.  It's between the ears more than it is a talent gap.  Some guys have it and some can't find the intestinal fortitude to win.  Guys like Nicklaus and Woods were just impervious to the pressure and I'm not sure they understand that they were abnormal.  

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13 will be fine with 30 or 40 yards added

 

I do like adding 20 to hole 16

 

3 .. no change .. maybe add 15 yards

 

you could easily make 15 harder with the pond behind sneaking closer to the green

 

its tricky because 13 and 15 can result in massive swings and make the finish so compelling

 

i do think a new Eisenhower tree is in order on 17


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