Jump to content

Ancer Penalty


jordan2240

Recommended Posts

I know this was touched on briefly in the Masters thread, but I think it deserves its own discussion.  Can anyone explain to me how this could possibly have resulted in a penalty?  The claim is that this was visible to the naked eye.  The naked eye of what?  I can't even see any violation in the video.  Even if he did slightly touch the sand, that rule needs to be changed to include intent.  I saw an LPGA event a couple of years ago where a golfer lost because she literally touched a grain of sand on her backswing.  And what are they doing at the masters exactly, video taping every swing?  Do we really want the game to devolve into that?

Masters 2021: Abraham Ancer hit with penalty after video review shows bunker violation | Golf Channel

Edited by jordan2240
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My view is that it’s really harsh on Ancer to have the penalty applied however, if they are aware of it then as the rule is currently written what are they supposed to do?

 

Decide that it was just a little bit of sand, was unlikely to have any impact on the shot and move on? The problem that creates is what is just a little bit of sand? Who makes that decision - the player, his playing partners? What if you are playing with Patrick Reed and he starts doing it?

 

From a practical point of view, I would be all for saying to Ancer carry on nothing to see here but that opens a bigger can of worms.

  • Like 1

Titleist TSR2 8.25* Project X EvenFlow T1100 White 6.0
Titleist TSR3 15* Project X Hzrdus Smoke RBX 6.0
Titleist U505 3 Iron Project X Hzrdus Smoke RBX 6.0
Titleist T200/T150 4-PW KBS Tour Stiff
Titleist Vokey SM9 50.08F, 54.12D (Raw) & 60.04L (Raw) True Temper S200
Scotty Cameron Futura 5S
ProV1 2023

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tough one for sure, I don't think he had any ill intent with what he did (or even noticed). But nevertheless the call was made and hell soldier on. Hope he continues the good play. Wish ol Dale was on the bag tho.

Edited by kmay__
  • Like 1

TM SIM Max 9*  Tensei blue AV 65-S

Mizuno ST180 3w 15* Tensei blue-S

Cobra BioCell 5w 19* Matrix RedTie-S

Ping G30 4h 22* TFC 419-R

Taylormade R-11 5-PW KBS Tour 90-S

Cleveland CBX 52* 58* DG 115-W

Mannkrafted rebar Rattler 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, teude said:

Yes it did. You can see that stack of sand behind the ball and when he starts his backswing its flattened.

 

I dont care.

 

Like I said. Not a penalty, to me.

  • Like 1

PRDYMTC TOUR  9.8° + CQ6 / MVRKTC 15° + UB6 / MVRKTC 18° + UB8 G430 26°@25+ IZ95 / FRGD TEC5-G + MODUS115 / MD5TC / SPDR EXTC + GPS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, sui generis said:

 

Yeah, don't confuse us with the facts! 🙄

 

We can pay mental gymnastics all day long and this convo can get even stupider.

 

The only 'fact' is that some child 'called in' a penalty and the USGA are the clowns leading the circus of stupidity in golf rulings.

  • Like 3
  • Confused 2

PRDYMTC TOUR  9.8° + CQ6 / MVRKTC 15° + UB6 / MVRKTC 18° + UB8 G430 26°@25+ IZ95 / FRGD TEC5-G + MODUS115 / MD5TC / SPDR EXTC + GPS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

reminds me of when Rahm won the memorial last year and had that pitch in for a 2, that got turned into a 4 when cameras identified that his ball moved after the round. Still won though. 

 

I get rules are rules, and if they start giving people an inch others will take a mile. However, if we had a camera on every shot, it could be constant penalties. I mean, even marking your ball to putt and replacing prob isn't the exact spot on the green.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Ironman_32 said:

reminds me of when Rahm won the memorial last year and had that pitch in for a 2, that got turned into a 4 when cameras identified that his ball moved after the round. Still won though. 

 

I get rules are rules, and if they start giving people an inch others will take a mile. However, if we had a camera on every shot, it could be constant penalties. I mean, even marking your ball to putt and replacing prob isn't the exact spot on the green.  

 

Or there might be fewer penalties because players would quickly realize that there's a camera looking at their ball!

 

Seriously, if one doesn't want a penalty don't put your club near the ball/sand. Anna Nordqvist threw away the USWO because she grounded her club in a fairway bunker in a playoff. You can't hit a bunker shot with the club hovering 1/2" above the ball?

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't take call-ins anymore. That review/ruling was done by the rules officials.

 

 

Edited by Argonne69
  • Like 2

Ping G425 Max Driver 12 (0 Flat) - Aldila Ascent Red 50 Stiff (46")
TaylorMade AeroBurner Mini Driver 16 - Matrix Speed RUL-Z 60 Stiff
Ping G410 7wd 20.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (43")
Ping G410 9wd 23.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (42.5")
Ping G425 6h 30 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 70 Stiff
PXG 0311P Gen3 6-P (2 Deg Weak, 1 Deg Flat) - True Temper Elevate 95 S /

Ping i200 6-P Orange Dot (2 Deg Weak, 2 Deg Flat) - True Temper XP 95 S
Ping Glide 4.0 52-12 S, 56-10 Eye2, and 60-10 S Orange Dot (2 Deg Flat) - Ping Z-Z115 Wedge
PXG Blackjack 36" - SuperStroker Flatso 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Ancer, so I’m definitely not bashing him, but I’m speaking to what I see as fact in the close up video.  There is a clump of sand sticking up right behind the ball.   Before he does his takeaway, he presses the club down into the sand slightly, and when he takes the club away, the sand is perfectly flat and the clump of sand behind the ball is gone.   That’s simply facts as shown on video.  Again, I like Ancer and think he’s a great player, I can’t speak to his intent because none of us can know that.  But the video shows clearly what happened.

  • Like 3

Ping G430 LST 9*, Kai’li White 60

Callaway Rogue ST LS 15*, Aldila Rogue White 70
Ping G430 19* hybrid, Kai’li White 80
Callaway Apex 21 4-AW, Pro Modus 3 Tour 120
Titleist SM9 52* F, Titleist SM10 58* K

Cameron Phantom X 11.5
Titleist ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Or there might be fewer penalties because players would quickly realize that there's a camera looking at their ball!

 

Seriously, if one doesn't want a penalty don't put your club near the ball/sand. Anna Nordqvist threw away the USWO because she grounded her club in a fairway bunker in a playoff. You can't hit a bunker shot with the club hovering 1/2" above the ball?

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't take call-ins anymore. That review/ruling was done by the rules officials.

 

 

I get your point. But I feel what were talking about is in no way an intention to cheat, and the ball movement isn't affecting the shot. Other times, like most stuff Patrick reed does, I would label as intent to cheat.

 

It would be like in finance, if the SEC said you have to count every penny. Ancer Corp. made $1,000,000.01 and reported $1M, while Reed is probably more WorldCom/Enron. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Let's see, 1) "call ins" are no longer permitted and 2) the is not a USGA event. 

 

Replace those words with whatever is appropriate. Statement still stands.

PRDYMTC TOUR  9.8° + CQ6 / MVRKTC 15° + UB6 / MVRKTC 18° + UB8 G430 26°@25+ IZ95 / FRGD TEC5-G + MODUS115 / MD5TC / SPDR EXTC + GPS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Ironman_32 said:

I get your point. But I feel what were talking about is in no way an intention to cheat, and the ball movement isn't affecting the shot. Other times, like most stuff Patrick reed does, I would label as intent to cheat.

 

It would be like in finance, if the SEC said you have to count every penny. Ancer Corp. made $1,000,000.01 and reported $1M, while Reed is probably more WorldCom/Enron. 

 

The only rule in golf in which intention comes into play is a stroke. Otherwise intention is never a factor. Thank goodness. 

 

Ping G425 Max Driver 12 (0 Flat) - Aldila Ascent Red 50 Stiff (46")
TaylorMade AeroBurner Mini Driver 16 - Matrix Speed RUL-Z 60 Stiff
Ping G410 7wd 20.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (43")
Ping G410 9wd 23.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (42.5")
Ping G425 6h 30 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 70 Stiff
PXG 0311P Gen3 6-P (2 Deg Weak, 1 Deg Flat) - True Temper Elevate 95 S /

Ping i200 6-P Orange Dot (2 Deg Weak, 2 Deg Flat) - True Temper XP 95 S
Ping Glide 4.0 52-12 S, 56-10 Eye2, and 60-10 S Orange Dot (2 Deg Flat) - Ping Z-Z115 Wedge
PXG Blackjack 36" - SuperStroker Flatso 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Or there might be fewer penalties because players would quickly realize that there's a camera looking at their ball!

 

Seriously, if one doesn't want a penalty don't put your club near the ball/sand. Anna Nordqvist threw away the USWO because she grounded her club in a fairway bunker in a playoff. You can't hit a bunker shot with the club hovering 1/2" above the ball?

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't take call-ins anymore. That review/ruling was done by the rules officials.

 

 

So are the rules officials watching the broadcast to catch violations? Or using the Masters app to watch every shot for violations? Curious how this one was identified.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

Who makes that decision - the player, his playing partners? What if you are playing with Patrick Reed and he starts doing it?

 

I thought the player was supposed to have the integrity to call it on himself when warranted.  In this case I don't think anyone would have called it.  Only he knows whether he did or didn't do it intentionally or even accidentally.  No doubt there is a lot of opportunity for those without integrity to abuse.

 

Which rolls into the second question you posed.  The playing partner has an obligation to protect himself and the field from cheating as well.  He can talk to the player after the hole with caddies and state, "I am putting you down for this score including a penalty for improving your lie in the bunker."  At that point you can call the rules official over if need be.  Later on you can refuse to sign his card for that reason.  

 

While the cameras may not be used to influence the scorecard or penalties, the camera shots still exist and everyone would know a penalty should have occurred.  One would think the court of public opinion would come down so hard on that player and the pressure be so great from the PGA Tour (knowing full well Masters is not PGA) that they could have the behind closed doors chat and peer pressure exerted as well.

 

At your private club, you know who the sandbaggers and cheaters are.  Word gets around quick.  And consciously or sub-consciously more eyes are on those guys when it matters.

Edited by smashdn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, jdl said:

So are the rules officials watching the broadcast to catch violations? Or using the Masters app to watch every shot for violations? Curious how this one was identified.

 

Basically yes, when they instituted the "no call in" rule, they put an official in place to review the video feed. 

  • Thanks 1

Ping G425 Max Driver 12 (0 Flat) - Aldila Ascent Red 50 Stiff (46")
TaylorMade AeroBurner Mini Driver 16 - Matrix Speed RUL-Z 60 Stiff
Ping G410 7wd 20.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (43")
Ping G410 9wd 23.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (42.5")
Ping G425 6h 30 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 70 Stiff
PXG 0311P Gen3 6-P (2 Deg Weak, 1 Deg Flat) - True Temper Elevate 95 S /

Ping i200 6-P Orange Dot (2 Deg Weak, 2 Deg Flat) - True Temper XP 95 S
Ping Glide 4.0 52-12 S, 56-10 Eye2, and 60-10 S Orange Dot (2 Deg Flat) - Ping Z-Z115 Wedge
PXG Blackjack 36" - SuperStroker Flatso 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

The only rule in golf in which intention comes into play is a stroke. Otherwise intention is never a factor. Thank goodness. 

 

 

If it was only that simple. A quick look at the Rules shows us that accidental and deliberate crop up a few times. For example Rule 11. 🙂

  • Like 2

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

If it was only that simple. A quick look at the Rules shows us that accidental and deliberate crop up a few times. For example Rule 11. 🙂

 

Ah, yes, the Phil rule. Lol.

 

Ping G425 Max Driver 12 (0 Flat) - Aldila Ascent Red 50 Stiff (46")
TaylorMade AeroBurner Mini Driver 16 - Matrix Speed RUL-Z 60 Stiff
Ping G410 7wd 20.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (43")
Ping G410 9wd 23.5 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 65 Stiff (42.5")
Ping G425 6h 30 (0 Flat) - Alta CB 70 Stiff
PXG 0311P Gen3 6-P (2 Deg Weak, 1 Deg Flat) - True Temper Elevate 95 S /

Ping i200 6-P Orange Dot (2 Deg Weak, 2 Deg Flat) - True Temper XP 95 S
Ping Glide 4.0 52-12 S, 56-10 Eye2, and 60-10 S Orange Dot (2 Deg Flat) - Ping Z-Z115 Wedge
PXG Blackjack 36" - SuperStroker Flatso 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His wedge touched the sand.  By rule, it's a penalty.  But there's no way in Hades anyone could see that with the nekkid eye.  Only a camera close-up could catch that.

 

If that's a penalty by rule, then anytime a club is grounded behind the ball should be a penalty as it's improving the lie.  A blade of grass is being moved, possibly keeping that one blade of grass from getting hung up in a groove.

 

Where does it end?

  • Like 3

PXG 0811X Proto 9*
Ping G30 14.5*

Ping G20 Hybrid 17*
PXG 0317X Gen 2 22*
Ping K15 4 Hybrid

Ping Rapture J-Spec 5 Iron

Ping i5 6 Iron

Ping S59 7-PW
Taylormade Hi-Toe 54*, 58*
Ping Zing 2 BeCu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Ah, yes, the Phil rule. Lol.

 

 

Rules nerds spend much of their time trying (mostly in vain, because there aren't many) to deduce "always" and "never" and "only" qualities in the Rules. For example, there's the Lew Blakey chestnut that you can never get out of a bunker for free.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ExTrumpet said:

His wedge touched the sand.  By rule, it's a penalty.  But there's no way in Hades anyone could see that with the nekkid eye.  Only a camera close-up could catch that.

 

If that's a penalty by rule, then anytime a club is grounded behind the ball should be a penalty as it's improving the lie.  A blade of grass is being moved, possibly keeping that one blade of grass from getting hung up in a groove.

 

Where does it end?

 

I'll take the Committee's resources over the La-Z-Boy referee's any day. 🙂

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get the visible to the naked eye rule.  The problem is the only way Ancer could have known about this violation is if his eyeballs were 5 feet behind the ball, and three feet lower to the ground.  He was standing above the ball, with the club hovering over the tiny mountain of sand...no way could he have seen that without a well placed camera replay.

 

I used to referee soccer, and one of the great things about the rules is that there is one basic overiding concept:  not to give any team an advantage.

 

What advantage did Ancer gain on the field here?

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

×
×
  • Create New...