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They screwed the pooch when they put in the "naked eye" thing.  This isn't hockey/football/basketball where if a ref didn't see it, there is no penalty.  An infraction occurs, it occurs.  You know not to touch the sand in a bunker.  Whether you see it or someone else does, you still did it. 

 

There seems to be an emerging "if you ain't cheating you ain't trying" attitude from other sports coming into golf.  "If a ref didn't call it right there then there is no penalty" has no place in golf, IMHO.  And I know they don't do them anymore, but can we please can it with the "some joe blow sitting on his couch calls in an infraction" stuff?  Who has a phone number to reach rules officials working tournaments?  

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Maybe Abraham shouldn't try to hover his wedge a millimeter above the sand, and maybe Rahm shouldn't have been smashing down the rough behind the ball? Players apparently can get away with anything no

Golf sucks I have no idea why I play

Let's see, 1) "call ins" are no longer permitted and 2) the is not a USGA event. 

2 minutes ago, manku said:

I get the visible to the naked eye rule.  The problem is the only way Ancer could have known about this violation is if his eyeballs were 5 feet behind the ball, and three feet lower to the ground.  He was standing above the ball, with the club hovering over the tiny mountain of sand...no way could he have seen that without a well placed camera replay.

 

I used to referee soccer, and one of the great things about the rules is that there is one basic overiding concept:  not to give any team an advantage.

 

What advantage did Ancer gain on the field here?

 

 

 

The advantage is that he got to hit the ball out of a bunker with less sand behind the ball. No idea what might have happened if the sand was there. I've hit plenty of shots out of a bunker "a little fat", and some make the green, and some don't. 

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3 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

The advantage is that he got to hit the ball out of a bunker with less sand behind the ball. No idea what might have happened if the sand was there. I've hit plenty of shots out of a bunker "a little fat", and some make the green, and some don't. 

 

Not to mention the fact that how many guys hovered their club higher to avoid such a situation, and possibly hit a poorer shot because of it?

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It seems a bit harsh, but it’s poor technique.

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1 hour ago, ExTrumpet said:

His wedge touched the sand.  By rule, it's a penalty.  But there's no way in Hades anyone could see that with the nekkid eye.  Only a camera close-up could catch that.

 

If that's a penalty by rule, then anytime a club is grounded behind the ball should be a penalty as it's improving the lie.  A blade of grass is being moved, possibly keeping that one blade of grass from getting hung up in a groove.

 

Where does it end?

 

It's like speeding. When is it considered speeding? 1 MPH over? 5? 10? 

 

Letter of the law and spirit of the law. He broke the letter. But not sure the spirit. 

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48 minutes ago, sittingbull said:

Could you imagine if the NFL refs make calls on cameras on the line men there would be 269 holding penalties a game. Hey i like the camera shots but i think THE PLAYERS need to make these calls not the umps in golf.

 

Then why have referees at all? "Trust, but verify."

 

Yes, the game is supposed to be self-policing, and it works 99% of the time. However, the refs have a job to do as well. A player could ground their club in a bunker, and never look down at the ball, and it would be OK? The system works because the players know that there are extra eyes on them. Sometimes they get away with an infraction, and sometimes they don't.

 

Don't like getting a penalty for touching the sand in a bunker? Simple, don't get the clubhead close enough to touch the sand.

 

 

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1 minute ago, jordan2240 said:

Looking at the video more closely, I do notice the tiny mound of sand that was touched on the backswing.  Highly doubtful Ancer even knew he'd done it (unlike Reed with his practice swings), but I guess if that's the rule, that's the rule.  My big problem with catching this stuff on video afterward is that it only impacts players who were on video, and it also shows what no one could possibly have seen live.  Joe Golfer who never gets any air time could be out there moving sand all day, with no impact.  I do wonder how this was spotted.  If one of his playing partners called attention to it, then there is merit to having it reviewed.  If someone is just sitting around reviewing every shot that was captured on video, I think that's nonsense.  It would be like taking away balls and strikes in baseball after the fact.  Guy hits a 2-run home run to win the game, video review shows he didn't swing at what should have been called strike three but was called a ball, so they take away the runs and the other team wins - or worse yet, if there weren't two outs, they have the teams pick up where they left off at some point.  Who wants to see sports go to that level?

 

Keep in mind that the score is not official until the scorecard has been signed. This includes reviewing any incidents that occurred on the course that might incur a penalty. That's part of the game. Plenty of examples over the years of penalty strokes being added later in the round.

 

Yes, in a perfect world there would be a camera on every player. Chances are Joe Golfer is not in contention, so he's not getting the scrutiny that the top players are getting. The top players know they're being videoed. All the more reason to be careful out there.

 

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19 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

Don't like getting a penalty for touching the sand in a bunker? Simple, don't get the clubhead close enough to touch the sand.

 

This seems like one of the unintended consequences of relaxing the rules in bunkers and [former] hazards.  Now you can touch the sand with your club but not to test the sand and not when it may improve the lie or path to the ball.  Seems it would have been simpler to just leave it at "don't touch your club to the sand, anywhere."  In a pro event I am sure there is a practice bunker available to them.  The bunkers (for them) are so consistent they ought to have a good idea of what they are dealing with day to day.

 

The rest of us schmucks are left wondering if that fluffy looking sand is 10" deep or 1/2" deep with hardpan underneath, the bunker liner, chert rocks, or jimmy hoffa.

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3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

This seems like one of the unintended consequences of relaxing the rules in bunkers and [former] hazards.  Now you can touch the sand with your club but not to test the sand and not when it may improve the lie or path to the ball.  Seems it would have been simpler to just leave it at "don't touch your club to the sand, anywhere."  In a pro event I am sure there is a practice bunker available to them.  The bunkers (for them) are so consistent they ought to have a good idea of what they are dealing with day to day.

 

The rest of us schmucks are left wondering if that fluffy looking sand is 10" deep or 1/2" deep with hardpan underneath, the bunker liner, chert rocks, or jimmy hoffa.

 

You can rest easy.  I've been told he's buried under one of my home course's greens.

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2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

This seems like one of the unintended consequences of relaxing the rules in bunkers and [former] hazards.  Now you can touch the sand with your club but not to test the sand and not when it may improve the lie or path to the ball.  Seems it would have been simpler to just leave it at "don't touch your club to the sand, anywhere."  In a pro event I am sure there is a practice bunker available to them.  The bunkers (for them) are so consistent they ought to have a good idea of what they are dealing with day to day.

 

The rest of us schmucks are left wondering if that fluffy looking sand is 10" deep or 1/2" deep with hardpan underneath, the bunker liner, chert rocks, or jimmy hoffa.

 

That's why you dig in your feet and take a stance. 

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12 minutes ago, Lobby said:

Once again, the Golf Channel and CBS cameras (we should include NBC and ESPN) screw up the game.

Oh, and let's not forget that golf rules suck.

 

So you think we should be able to clear a path behind the ball in a bunker? Take a few practice takeaways to ensure that the ball is sitting up on a nice sand tee? 

 

Again, like divot holes in the fairway, how do you write a rule that allows just a little sand to be removed, but not "too much"? 

 

Edited by Argonne69

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8 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

This seems like one of the unintended consequences of relaxing the rules in bunkers and [former] hazards.  Now you can touch the sand with your club but not to test the sand and not when it may improve the lie or path to the ball.  Seems it would have been simpler to just leave it at "don't touch your club to the sand, anywhere."  In a pro event I am sure there is a practice bunker available to them.  The bunkers (for them) are so consistent they ought to have a good idea of what they are dealing with day to day.

 

The rest of us schmucks are left wondering if that fluffy looking sand is 10" deep or 1/2" deep with hardpan underneath, the bunker liner, chert rocks, or jimmy hoffa.

 

Here's where we find what we may and may not do when our ball is in a bunker:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12&subrulenum=2

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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23 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Seems it would have been simpler to just leave it at "don't touch your club to the sand, anywhere." 

Its pretty simple here, don't touch the sand right behind the ball, @sui generis posted a link to the Rule.  I can understand an opinion that this wasn't enough to be visible to the naked eye, in my own opinion its pretty close, but there's no room for confusion as to whether a player is allowed to touch the sand right behind the ball.  

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i have no problem with the rule , but as others have said if you need an HD camera to see him touch a grain of sand it shouldn't be called. 

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55 minutes ago, nikeblades00 said:

Just like the NFL needs INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE to overturn a call. The same should apply here, there is not Indisputable evidence! 

 

It might be good to remember that golf and football have nothing in common. 🙄

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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36 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

i have no problem with the rule , but as others have said if you need an HD camera to see him touch a grain of sand it shouldn't be called. 

 

R20.2c is the reference.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12&subrulenum=2

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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41 minutes ago, sui generis said:

"Naked eye - unassisted vision, without a telescope, microscope, or other device."  Wouldn't 'other device' also include a camera closeup?  There is no way anyone would have seen that sand move during his backswing with the 'naked eye'.

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9 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

"Naked eye - unassisted vision, without a telescope, microscope, or other device."  Wouldn't 'other device' also include a camera closeup?  There is no way anyone would have seen that sand move during his backswing with the 'naked eye'.

 

The Masters Rules Committee had a pretty good vantage point, much better than us at home in our La-Z-Boys. 😉

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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22 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

The Masters Rules Committee had a pretty good vantage point, much better than us at home in our La-Z-Boys. 😉

The penalty was called based on the close-up video evidence, wasn't it?  Has there been any determination as to why the shot was even looked at?  Did one of his playing partners think he saw the sand move during the backswing?

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