Why can't you take a practice swing in a bunker?

[2bGood]

I am well aware of the rules, but I am wondering if anyone knows the history of this particular rule and how/why it came about and in broader sense not being able to test the surface a in hazard (old term) came about.

 

The follow up question is why you can you now ground your club in a penalty area but not a bunker??? I suspect it is that there is an opportunity to improve your lie in sand just by grounding a club, but is there more to it?

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

The idea of a hazard has always been to be a nuisance for the player. Thus any testing of a hazard would have helped the player and that is why it has been forbidden. AFAIK, the change regarding penalty areas resulted from Loose Impediments being allowed to be removed without penalty. LIs have been a bit of a hot potato for a long time as virtually any movement of the player or their equipment have resulted in a movement of a LI, small or bigger. As this has been difficult to verify the RBs decided to overrule this and allow LIs to be removed from a PA. At the same time it became evident that forbidding touching the ground/water in a PA would be unnecessary as you were already allowed to remove all the LIs. Furthermore the RBs wanted to streamline the Rules in general and this way all the areas are treated equally, except the bunker.

 

Forbidding the testing of a bunker is still there for more obvious reasons, one being the challenge of extricating a ball from the bunker as well as avoiding unnecessary and time-consuming whacking about and raking. Then again, you are allowed to do all the whacking you want in the adjacent bunker so I think it is only a matter of time when you will be allowed to test the condition of the bunker your ball is in.

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

The idea of a hazard has always been to be a nuisance for the player. Thus any testing of a hazard would have helped the player and that is why it has been forbidden. AFAIK, the change regarding penalty areas resulted from Loose Impediments being allowed to be removed without penalty. LIs have been a bit of a hot potato for a long time as virtually any movement of the player or their equipment have resulted in a movement of a LI, small or bigger. As this has been difficult to verify the RBs decided to overrule this and allow LIs to be removed from a PA. At the same time it became evident that forbidding touching the ground/water in a PA would be unnecessary as you were already allowed to remove all the LIs. Furthermore the RBs wanted to streamline the Rules in general and this way all the areas are treated equally, except the bunker.

 

Forbidding the testing of a bunker is still there for more obvious reasons, one being the challenge of extricating a ball from the bunker as well as avoiding unnecessary and time-consuming whacking about and raking. Then again, you are allowed to do all the whacking you want in the adjacent bunker so I think it is only a matter of time when you will be allowed to test the condition of the bunker your ball is in.

Thanks, very helpful answer.

 

The origins of golf had hazards (only water), but the 13 articles of 1744 states you can either play the ball as it lies with no special rules (ie nothing about grounding clubs etc).

 

Bunkers did not exist as their own thing in the early rules and you would have been able to ground a club, take a practice swing etc.

 

At some point we decided to change that. But I can't find when that occurred. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Thanks helpful answer. The origins of golf had hazards (only water), the 13 articles of 1744 states you can either play the ball as it lies with no special rules (ie nothing about grounding clubs etc).

 

Bunkers did not exist as their own thing in the early rules and you would have been able to ground a club, take a practice swing etc.

 

I wonder if there were any bunkers on the courses back then. Must go and see if I can find some old photos buried in the attic from those days...

 

No, wait! We do not have an attic. Darn...

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I wonder if there were any bunkers on the courses back then. Must go and see if I can find some old photos buried in the attic from those days...

 

No, wait! We do not have an attic. Darn...

 

 

 

Bunkers
Bunkers were first mentioned in 1812 and first defined in 1933. Even before a definition, it was clear that the characteristics of a bunker have always been the same.

1858 For a ball in a bunker, no 'impression' could be made before striking, indicating the principle of not grounding the club.

[jobin]

So, if your ball lies in bunker A you are permitted to practice all the sand shots, sans ball, you want from bunker B?

That's good to know coz i luv to needle my 'friends' about the rules. Next time i take some good healthy sand shots in the bunker without the ball and then move 20 yrds to my ball in nearby bunker, they will howl and cry. 

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, jobin said:

So, if your ball lies in bunker A you are permitted to practice all the sand shots, sans ball, you want from bunker B?

That's good to know coz i luv to needle my 'friends' about the rules. Next time i take some good healthy sand shots in the bunker without the ball and then move 20 yrds to my ball in nearby bunker, they will howl and cry. 

No.

[jobin]

Suggest you read again, #77, what MR BEAN had to say.

[TwistedSister]

22 minutes ago, jobin said:

Suggest you read again, #77, what MR BEAN had to say.

I thought this also...  I have been searching for the interpretation for the last 1/2 hour...

[Hawkeye77]

49 minutes ago, jobin said:

Suggest you read again, #77, what MR BEAN had to say.

LOL, then yes. 

[Mr. Grumpy]

I can't find anywhere saying you can take practice swings from an adjacent bunker. Did find this quiz question-

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Grumpy said:

I can't find anywhere saying you can take practice swings from an adjacent bunker. Did find this quiz question-

Old rules, I thought the same.

 

As I was reminded above, new rules > memory, lol.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Grumpy]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Old rules.

Still cannot find any wording saying you can test swing in an adjacent bunker 

From PGA-

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Mr. Grumpy said:

Still cannot find any wording saying you can test swing in an adjacent bunker 

From PGA-

Those apply if your ball is in a bunker, and then to actions in the bunker your ball is in.

 

I don't think you'll find wording you can do it, you just won't find anything prohibiting it.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Grumpy]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Those apply if your ball is in a bunker, and then to actions in the bunker your ball is in.

 

I don't think you'll find wording you can do it, you just won't find anything prohibiting it.

Awesome! I hate bunkers so I'll be testing this tomorrow, buddies will flip... 

[Halebopp]

The wording is in the rule 12, it talks about restrictions in the bunker instead of a bunker or any bunker.

[nitram]

🍿

Really interested to see how this turns out for the guy who tries it.

 

I can see the conversation with the rules official now:

 

"You can't do that"

 

"Yes I can"

 

"No you can't, that'll be a 2-stroke penalty"

 

"But Mr. Bean on GolfWRX says I can"

 

"Well alrighty then, carry on".

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by nitram

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

🍿

Really interested to see how this turns out for the guy who tries it.

 

I can see the conversation with the rules official now:

 

"You can't do that"

 

"Yes I can"

 

"No you can't, that'll be a 2-stroke penalty"

 

"But Mr. Bean on GolfWRX says I can"

 

"Well alrighty then, carry on".

 

 

Bean always told the truth!

 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, nitram said:

🍿

Really interested to see how this turns out for the guy who tries it.

 

I can see the conversation with the rules official now:

 

"You can't do that"

 

"Yes I can"

 

"No you can't, that'll be a 2-stroke penalty"

 

"But Mr. Bean on GolfWRX says I can"

 

"Well alrighty then, carry on".

 

 

 

What can I say? When you are RELLY  good your rep precedes you 😎

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

Then seriously.

 

Halebopp already unvailed the secret. In Rule 12 it is forbidden to test the condition of THE bunker the player's ball is in. Nothing in that or any other Rule says you cannot test the condition of another bunker.

[2bGood]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Then seriously.

 

Halebopp already unvailed the secret. In Rule 12 it is forbidden to test the condition of THE bunker the player's ball is in. Nothing in that or any other Rule says you cannot test the condition of another bunker.

You have to think this loop hole will get shut down pretty fast. Certainly not within the spirit of the rules and would slow things down considerably.

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

You have to think this loop hole will get shut down pretty fast. Certainly not within the spirit of the rules and would slow things down considerably.

I agree - on many courses the condition and consistency of the sand/conditions in the bunker is indeed very similar.  Although I don't see a lot of people doing it just because their playing partners would eventually kill them, it shouldn't be allowed.  

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

You have to think this loop hole will get shut down pretty fast. Certainly not within the spirit of the rules and would slow things down considerably.

 

I doubt it will be changed very soon as it was changed into this current form only some years ago. And what you say about slowing down is not relevant as the players are expected to keep their pace. Any undue delay will cost you, so if you want to test a bunker you need to do it swiftly or when it is another player's turn. 

[Halebopp]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

You have to think this loop hole will get shut down pretty fast. Certainly not within the spirit of the rules and would slow things down considerably.

 

They might react to it when people actually start doing so. But it's possible they've knowingly moved the rules in this direction to avoid players being penalised unnecessarily.

 

I remember a situation in which a player made a stroke from a bunker to another bunker (or maybe into another part of the same fairway bunker) and was penalised for the fact the caddie raked the footprints while the ball was in a bunker. But I can't remember the specifics, nor do I want to go back and re-learn old rules so my recollection of what happened is probably on par with how the media usually misrepresents rules issues. 🙂

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I agree - on many courses the condition and consistency of the sand/conditions in the bunker is indeed very similar.  Although I don't see a lot of people doing it just because their playing partners would eventually kill them, it shouldn't be allowed.  

 

Why?

 

You are allowed to test the condition of a penalty area and a tall grass and water and and and. It is not very common to have exactly the same conditions in every bunker of a course.

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

They might react to it when people actually start doing so. But it's possible they've knowingly moved the rules in this direction to avoid players being penalised unnecessarily.

 

I remember a situation in which a player made a stroke from a bunker to another bunker (or maybe into another part of the same fairway bunker) and was penalised for the fact the caddie raked the footprints while the ball was in a bunker. But I can't remember the specifics, nor do I want to go back and re-learn old rules so my recollection of what happened is probably on par with how the media usually misrepresents rules issues. 🙂

 

It was the Munich Classic 2008 or 2010 and I should remember the player's name. In fact, his ball was not in the bunker but he had to stand in a bunker making his stroke and his ball ended up in a greenside bunker. When his caddie raked that bunker and he did not add the 2 penalty strokes into his score he was DQ'd. It was then when RBs decided this cannot be and they changed the Rule on the spot.

 

EDIT: It was Stewart Cink!

 

EDIT2: Found it also in the web: https://Not allowed because of spam.com/stewart-cink-disqualified/

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I doubt it will be changed very soon as it was changed into this current form only some years ago. And what you say about slowing down is not relevant as the players are expected to keep their pace. Any undue delay will cost you, so if you want to test a bunker you need to do it swiftly or when it is another player's turn. 

I suspect it will come up as a clarification. Pace of play does seem to be relevant to the RB's these days.

 

Time will tell.

[Mr. Bean]

51 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I suspect it will come up as a clarification.

 

I very much doubt it.

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I suspect it will come up as a clarification. Pace of play does seem to be relevant to the RB's these days.

 

Time will tell.

 

I, too, doubt that the Rule will change. There are other better avenues to manage pace of play.

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why?

 

You are allowed to test the condition of a penalty area and a tall grass and water and and and. It is not very common to have exactly the same conditions in every bunker of a course.

Similar, nothing said about exactly the same nor would any condition be exactly the same.  

 

No point to whacking away in a bunker you aren't in, let alone testing the conditions.  

Edited April 11, 2021 by Hawkeye77