Masters Sunday: Horschel @13

[gulpeg]

I believe Billy Horschel posted an incorrect score on #13 of final round of Masters. Here's what was counted.

 

1 = tee shot on 13 into water

2 = one shot out of water a couple feet in front of him in the junk

3 = tried to hit from junk, barely moves ball

4 = declared unplayable - drops back behind creek

5 = hits shot into patrons area

6 = onto green

7 = first putt

8 = second putt

 

however, before deciding to take an unplayable drop, he took his club and flipped a ball out of the junk backward into creek. he then decided to play an unplayable, dropping a ways back, supposedly hitting 5. 

 

this is where I believe the infraction/penalty occurs.

 

- since he hit a ball with his club, wouldn’t this be a stroke?

- not clear from TV coverage, but I believe he left ball in creek. Can he leave ball in creek and put new one into play when taking the drop?

- if the "flipped" ball was not his, then he hit a wrong ball AND his ball should have been declared as lost.

 

if i'm correct, he should have been DQ'd like Wolff for signing and incorrect scorecard.

 

did anyone else notice this?  thoughts?

 

 

[toc]

Pretty sure he declared he was taking the drop before he flipped the ball.  Why couldn't he leave the ball in a creek?  It's a hazard, aren't most balls, especially from touring pros, left in the water and a new one put into play?

[Hawkeye77]

So you think if he picked up his ball with his club he was making a stroke?  And you want him DQ'd because you think he didn't use his original ball when he took a drop?

 

I'd read the rules before making such a claim.

[Frankensteins Monster]

7 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

I believe Billy Horschel posted an incorrect score on #13 of final round of Masters. Here's what was counted.

 

1 = tee shot on 13 into water

2 = one shot out of water a couple feet in front of him in the junk

3 = tried to hit from junk, barely moves ball

4 = declared unplayable - drops back behind creek

5 = hits shot into patrons area

6 = onto green

7 = first putt

8 = second putt

 

however, before deciding to take an unplayable drop, he took his club and flipped a ball out of the junk backward into creek. he then decided to play an unplayable, dropping a ways back, supposedly hitting 5. 

 

this is where I believe the infraction/penalty occurs.

 

- since he hit a ball with his club, wouldn’t this be a stroke?

- not clear from TV coverage, but I believe he left ball in creek. Can he leave ball in creek and put new one into play when taking the drop?

- if the "flipped" ball was not his, then he hit a wrong ball AND his ball should have been declared as lost.

 

if i'm correct, he should have been DQ'd like Wolff for signing and incorrect scorecard.

 

did anyone else notice this?  thoughts?

 

 

You're wrong. A ball can be substituted anytime taking relief.

 

Under Rule 14.3, when taking relief, the player is always allowed the choice to substitute a ball or to use the original ball, including when taking penalty relief and when taking free relief (Rules 15-19).

[Imp]

I think the only thing the OP is questioning is if Horschel declared he was taking an unplayable BEFORE or AFTER fishing out a ball from the water.  It's a focus on the declaration and timing thereof, not on the substitution. 
 

[Hawkeye77]

18 minutes ago, Imp said:

I think the only thing the OP is questioning is if Horschel declared he was taking an unplayable BEFORE or AFTER fishing out a ball from the water.  It's a focus on the declaration and timing thereof, not on the substitution. 
 

Actually he's claiming, not questioning, he didn't declare in a timely fashion without providing any evidence that was the case.  

[Colin L]

Where do find any requirement on a player to "declare" that he is taking unplayable ball relief?

How can you consider "flipping"   a ball out of the junk backward into creek was a stroke? How could you consider that it was intended to complete the hole in the fewest possible strokes which is the basic purpose of the game. 

How do you know he hit the ball back into the creek before he decided to take unplayable relief.  No-one is privy to the inside of a man's mind!

 

Forget it.  From what you've described (I didn't see the incident) he casually  knocked his ball into the water perhaps in disgust, and got on with substituting another ball as he was entitled to do, duly counting the penalty stroke involved.

[Hawkeye77]

7 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Where do find any requirement on a player to "declare" that he is taking unplayable ball relief?

How can you consider "flipping"   a ball out of the junk backward into creek was a stroke? How could you consider that it was intended to complete the hole in the fewest possible strokes which is the basic purpose of the game. 

How do you know he hit the ball back into the creek before he decided to take unplayable relief.  No-one is privy to the inside of a man's mind!

 

Forget it.  From what you've described (I didn't see the incident) he casually  knocked his ball into the water perhaps in disgust, and got on with substituting another ball as he was entitled to do, duly counting the penalty stroke involved.

Exactly - the determination is within the sole discretion of the player.  Horschel made his decision and proceeded from there.

[rogolf]

Oh, BTW, you cannot take an unplayable for a ball that is a penalty area!

[Imp]

24 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Where do find any requirement on a player to "declare" that he is taking unplayable ball relief?

How can you consider "flipping"   a ball out of the junk backward into creek was a stroke? How could you consider that it was intended to complete the hole in the fewest possible strokes which is the basic purpose of the game. 

How do you know he hit the ball back into the creek before he decided to take unplayable relief.  No-one is privy to the inside of a man's mind!

 

Forget it.  From what you've described (I didn't see the incident) he casually  knocked his ball into the water perhaps in disgust, and got on with substituting another ball as he was entitled to do, duly counting the penalty stroke involved.

I hit a ball into water. There are two balls there. I fish one out with my club. It's not my ball and I can't get to the other one. "I guess I'll drop here and continue." I mean, I get it.

However, strict to the rules of golf, he hit another ball, which ended up being a wrong ball, with his club, from within a hazard, which one can play out of because it's not OB, in a major tournament. Was it a "stroke with intent at hitting the ball"? No (and that's probably the saving grace, I agree) If he didn't use his club, we wouldn't be discussing this. Similar to rolling the ball in the fairway with the club, when there's lift/clean place vs no lift clean and place. LCP in effect, it's not a stroke. LCP not in effect, it's a stroke each time.

His club came in contact with a ball, while on the course, without making his intention known ahead of time is what's in question.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Imp

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Oh, BTW, you cannot take an unplayable for a ball that is a penalty area!

In addition to the "declared unplayable" not making sense, this is also true and I assume he was in the penalty area when he made the decision (not declaring) to take his drop.

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Imp said:

I hit a ball into water. There are two balls there. I fish one out with my club. It's not my ball and I can't get to the other one. "I guess I'll take an unplayable and continue." I mean, I get it.

However, strict to the rules of golf, he hit another ball, which ended up being a wrong ball, with his club, from within a hazard, in a major tournament. Was it a "stroke with intent at hitting the ball"? No (and that's probably the saving grace, I agree) If he didn't use his club, we wouldn't be discussing this. Similar to rolling the ball in the fairway with the club, when there's lift/clean place vs no lift clean and place. LCP in effect, it's not a stroke. LCP not in effect, it's a stroke each time.

His club came in contact with a ball, while on the course, without making his intention known ahead of time is what's in question.

 

How is he required to make his intention known under the rules?  

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

In addition to the "declared unplayable" not making sense, this is also true and I assume he was in the penalty area when he made the decision (not declaring) to take his drop.

As Colin has said above, there is no requirement to "declare" what you are doing wrt to penalty area or unplayable.

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

As Colin has said above, there is no requirement to "declare" what you are doing wrt to penalty area or unplayable.

Well aware.

[Imp]

Point to the rule that says "a stroke at a wrong ball in a penalty area is wiped out if you put another ball in play right after it."
 

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Imp said:

Point to the rule that says "a stroke at a wrong ball in a penalty area is wiped out if you put another ball in play right after it."
 

Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Who made a stroke at a "wrong ball" and how did you determine that?

Edited April 12, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Imp]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Who made a stroke at a "wrong ball" and how did you determine that?

"he took his club and flipped a ball out of the junk backward into creek."

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Imp said:

"he took his club and flipped a ball out of the junk backward into creek."

Again, why is that a problem?  You don't seem to want to explain that.

[toc]

It wasn’t the wrong ball, where did that come from

[Hawkeye77]

10 minutes ago, toc said:

It wasn’t the wrong ball, where did that come from

The OP's ramblings.  It's pretty obvious it was Billy's ball.

[Imp]

Does it make a difference if he did it with his own ball, or another ball, if he hit *A* ball with his own club from a general/penalty area into the creek? He took a swing, at a ball, with a club, and didn't count it. 

 

If he just threw the ball, fine. Using the club, and before walking out of the area, seems to be actionable. Worse penalties have happened by  momentary lapse of judgement. 

 

--kC

 

 

[Sawgrass]

3 minutes ago, Imp said:

Does it make a difference if he did it with his own ball, or another ball, if he hit *A* ball with his own club from a general/penalty area into the creek? He took a swing, at a ball, with a club, and didn't count it. 

 

If he just threw the ball, fine. Using the club, and before walking out of the area, seems to be actionable. Worse penalties have happened by  momentary lapse of judgement. 

 

--kC

 

 

Please look at the definition of a stroke.

[Hawkeye77]

Amazing how dug in people get trying to "nail" Tour players, OP started this and promptly ran away, lol.

[Cwebb]

Did you make a call to CBS ?

[gulpeg]

Time to defend myself I guess. I reread my post and I was/am posing questions, NOT making accusations. That's what it means when I said, "If I'm correct ..."

 

#1 I was trying to pose questions because I didn't know. If it came across as accusatory then I apologize. Not trying to "nail" anyone (and I like BH) perhaps I didn't write it correctly, but I find it interesting how quickly this wonderful community is to judge and ridicule someone.

 

#2 I guess I'm trying to figure out intent, which is what much of the rules take into consideration and are based upon.

 

Do you not have to tell your playing partner that you are taking an unplayable and therefore the resulting drop?

If when you do that, does the ball in question then become "dead" until put back into play? if not, then I believe making contact with the ball (flipping it) would be a stroke.

 

I was watching the Masters Live feed of featured groups prior to the TC broadcast. I rewound and rewatched a couple of time and as for "declaring" I am going by the announcer's commentary. The cameraman was directly behind him for the entire segment. His 2nd shot out of the water of the creek goes about 5-8ft into the junk. 3rd shot was even shorter, buried into the side of the creek below the fairway. From there he flips it back into water and walks away exiting the creek. the announcer's say he's taking an unplayable and he moves back to drop.  I guess I stand corrected (which is part of what I was asking) about putting a new ball in play after relief.

 

And maybe you don't have to tell your opponent you're taking relief of unplayable (I honestly don't know how official that has to be), but if you don't and they're not exactly paying attention, how will they know what your score was on the hole?

 

As for trying to get him disqualified, not my intent at all, just saying that if I am correct, wouldn't that be the resolution just like what happened to Wolff a couple days earlier?

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, Imp said:

Does it make a difference if he did it with his own ball, or another ball, if he hit *A* ball with his own club from a general/penalty area into the creek? He took a swing, at a ball, with a club, and didn't count it. 

 

If he just threw the ball, fine. Using the club, and before walking out of the area, seems to be actionable. Worse penalties have happened by  momentary lapse of judgement. 

 

--kC

 

 

 

Having not seen the case I cannot say I am totally correct but even though flicking a ball with a club technically fulfils the Definition of a stroke it is very possible that it is not considered as one due to the casual nature of the act, as Colin explained earlier.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

Time to defend myself I guess. I reread my post and I was/am posing questions, NOT making accusations. That's what it means when I said, "If I'm correct ..."

 

#1 I was trying to pose questions because I didn't know. If it came across as accusatory then I apologize. Not trying to "nail" anyone (and I like BH) perhaps I didn't write it correctly, but I find it interesting how quickly this wonderful community is to judge and ridicule someone.

 

#2 I guess I'm trying to figure out intent, which is what much of the rules take into consideration and are based upon.

 

Do you not have to tell your playing partner that you are taking an unplayable and therefore the resulting drop?

If when you do that, does the ball in question then become "dead" until put back into play? if not, then I believe making contact with the ball (flipping it) would be a stroke.

 

I was watching the Masters Live feed of featured groups prior to the TC broadcast. I rewound and rewatched a couple of time and as for "declaring" I am going by the announcer's commentary. The cameraman was directly behind him for the entire segment. His 2nd shot out of the water of the creek goes about 5-8ft into the junk. 3rd shot was even shorter, buried into the side of the creek below the fairway. From there he flips it back into water and walks away exiting the creek. the announcer's say he's taking an unplayable and he moves back to drop.  I guess I stand corrected (which is part of what I was asking) about putting a new ball in play after relief.

 

And maybe you don't have to tell your opponent you're taking relief of unplayable (I honestly don't know how official that has to be), but if you don't and they're not exactly paying attention, how will they know what your score was on the hole?

 

As for trying to get him disqualified, not my intent at all, just saying that if I am correct, wouldn't that be the resolution just like what happened to Wolff a couple days earlier?

These aren't questions:

 

"I believe Billy Horschel posted an incorrect score on #13 of final round of Masters."

 

"however, before deciding to take an unplayable drop, he took his club and flipped a ball out of the junk backward into creek. he then decided to play an unplayable, dropping a ways back, supposedly hitting 5."

 

"this is where I believe the infraction/penalty occurs."

 

 

"I believe Billy Horschel posted an incorrect score on #13 of final round of Masters. Here's what was counted.

 

1 = tee shot on 13 into water

2 = one shot out of water a couple feet in front of him in the junk

3 = tried to hit from junk, barely moves ball

4 = declared unplayable - drops back behind creek

5 = hits shot into patrons area

6 = onto green

7 = first putt

8 = second putt"

 

"however, before deciding to take an unplayable drop, he took his club and flipped a ball out of the junk backward into creek. he then decided to play an unplayable, dropping a ways back, supposedly hitting 5. " 

 

Then you say if all of your assertions are true he should have been DQ.

 

You made the claim. You aren't being ridiculed - but this is the typical "so and so broke a rule and I caught him" thread which then turns into backpedalling.

 

Maybe start the post - "I have some questions and here they are" - your post is all your assertion and belief he broke the rules, and without any attempt to even know the ones that applied.

 

Not saying you need to have the rules at the ready, I goofed up an easy revision one over the weekend, but if it was all just a couple of questions and looking for guidance, that's not how it was framed.

 

 

 

[gulpeg]

Truly was not trying to be a Gotcha Wise Guy.

 

I understand your POV on this and it's noted. Commentary still comes across as needlessly harsh. If you don't believe or understand my mea culpa then why should your responses be viewed differently by me?

 

Every one of my assertions has a question ending the sentence. and, if I am correct, which I may not be, then he should be DQ'd.

 

 

[Dim]

Well done guys. OP starts a topic in Rules of Golf and Etiquette and 27 posts later nobody actually refers to an actual golf rule.

 

I was amazed by the Horschel debacle and was having similar doubts. I guess we are all not here to call CBS but because we actually are trying to understand the rules of golf.

 

I will give it a try:

I believe we are talking about the actual ball Billy was trying to hit before. So presuming that, it was a ball in play. I have searched the rules of golf and could not find a ‘declaration of intent to substitute a ball’ anywhere.

 

A ball remains in play until:

- lifted or

- lost or out of bounds or

- it is substituted

 

A ball is substituted when he puts a new ball in play in any way (14.4 R&A):

- by substituting, dropping or placing a ball on the course with the intent of putting that ball in play

 

He did not do this yet when he tossed the ball into the water with his club. I think it was not an intended swing, so I think he moved a ball in play (9.2 R&A)

 

In this case it would have been moved by touching by the player (9.4 R&A). Therefore there would be a 1 stroke penalty and ball has to be replaced.

 

Of course I can see why Horschel was frustrated, but strictly from a rules perspective I think this would be  what should have been applied. After what happened to Ancer in the same tournament (which by itself is an interesting discussion) I was expecting this to be penalized.

 

[Hawkeye77]

28 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

Truly was not trying to be a Gotcha Wise Guy.

 

I understand your POV on this and it's noted. Commentary still comes across as needlessly harsh. If you don't believe or understand my mea culpa then why should your responses be viewed differently by me?

 

Every one of my assertions has a question ending the sentence. and, if I am correct, which I may not be, then he should be DQ'd.

 

 

LOL, none of your actual assertions in your original post ended in a question mark.