3W Swing Speed Higher With Regular Shaft vs Stiff

[MattC555]

Hey all,

 

Ran into something I found curious at my 3w fitting on Saturday. 

 

Back story first:

 

 I have a driver swing speed average of 108mph, carry of ~255 yards.  Probably the shortest hitter on golfwrx lol.  I have a pretty average tempo.  My driver is a Tensei Orange stiff G410 and my hybrid has a Red board Stiff.  Irons are MP-68 with S300's.

 

 I was being fitted to replace my trusty old Sonartec 2.5SS.  She's a good old club, but simply doesn't travel far enough.  I carry it 225 yards on average for a total of 235 yards.  I have a 915 2H that performs almost the same.  I was in the market for a proper modern 3 wood that would carry about 240 yards. 

 

I went through the Titleist TS2, G425, and Callaway Epic Speed.  I wasn't consistent with any of them.  He then gave me a Sim2 Max fairway, and all was well with the world.  Straight and carrying 240+ yards.  This club has the made for VENTUS BLUE 6 FW in a stiff flex.  My fitter thought I might benefit from more launch, so he handed me the HL version.  It's at this point I noticed that my swing speed had increased from 99mph to 101mph.  When I asked why, my fitter replied that he didn't have a stiff flex HL, so I was swinging the regular flex version.  It definitely felt whippier(sp?) but spin was good and carry was longer.  Is higher swing speed with more flex normal?

 

I went with the stiff, as my fitter thought I'd have better luck controlling this shaft.  I agree, but found the whole thing pretty interesting. 

 

TLDR - swing speed higher with whippy shaft.  Why?

[Stuart_G]

15 hours ago, MattC555 said:

Is higher swing speed with more flex normal?

 

I went with the stiff, as my fitter thought I'd have better luck controlling this shaft.  I agree, but found the whole thing pretty interesting. 

 

TLDR - swing speed higher with whippy shaft.  Why?

 

I wouldn't call it normal but it's certainly not unheard of.    And no, the extra speed didn't really just come from the whippy nature of the shaft.  Do the same comparison with a robot and you wouldn't see hardly any difference.  But we're not robots, feel can matter.  It's just more for some than others.   For some people, what they feel from the shaft (both in terms of weight and stiffness or loading of the shaft) can play a big role in controlling the swing.   There are lots of different ways that the swing can be influenced - grip pressure, tempo, transition, sequencing of the body parts, release timing, swing plane, etc...

 

Impossible to say for sure exactly what's going on with you, but it's a bit more common for a softer shaft to help smooth out the transition, slightly alter the upper/lower body sequencing or effect the release timing.     If you can identify what it improved in the swing and work on it, you might be able get the some of that increase with the stiff shaft.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[phizzy30]

@Stuart_G is spot on.  Shaft flex doesn't equate to more ss.  Question is, how was your dispersion with the r flex?  I know for me, when I drop from x to s, my dispersion does tend to suffer. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by phizzy30

[MattC555]

My dispersion wasn't worse, but the feel was.  I wasn't comfortable working the ball with the R flex shaft.  Stuart, do you have any robot data?  I'd be interested in looking at it.  Thanks. 

[Stuart_G]

30 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

My dispersion wasn't worse, but the feel was.  I wasn't comfortable working the ball with the R flex shaft.  Stuart, do you have any robot data?  I'd be interested in looking at it.  Thanks. 

 

Sorry no, I don't.   But there have been several (proper) published scientific studies on the effect of the unloading of the shaft on club head velocity that have debunked the concept of "kick velocity" adding to club head speed.   Kick velocity does exist but it's believed to be counteracted by a bit more (or earlier) deceleration in the hands that happens automatically with the softer shafts to properly time the impact.   Tutelman did a short write up on it on his web site as well (google "Tutelman kick velocity").

 

Just a word of warning though about the feel.   Everyone's different but a bad feeling shaft has the potential to mess with your swing and timing, especially under pressure on the course.  So it's generally not a good idea to go with a shaft that doesn't feel good.   It's possible for some people to get used to that new (unfamiliar) feel but not everyone can adjust their sense of what they think they should be feeling from the shaft loading and unloading.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[cwilk]

The Gears Golf system seems to disprove the general sentiment in this thread and shows that flex and kick does effect club head speed:

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by cwilk

[Stuart_G]

26 minutes ago, cwilk said:

The Gears Golf system seems to disprove the general sentiment in this thread and shows that flex and kick does effect club head speed:

 

Not sure who you were referring to but it doesn't disprove anything I said.

 

[cwilk]

9 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not sure who you were referring to but it doesn't disprove anything I said.

 

I understood your posts to imply that it’s not so much the characteristics of the shaft, but how the player reacts. Gears seems to show the opposite. 
 

* As it relates to shaft deflection and resulting club head speed. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by cwilk

[Stuart_G]

10 minutes ago, cwilk said:

I understood your posts to imply that it’s not so much the characteristics of the shaft, but how the player reacts. Gears seems to show the opposite. 

 

Sorry, no it doesn't.   That's 4 different flexes each swing by a different individual.   It doesn't even try to address the question of the same golfer swinging different flexes or how a player might react to changes in flex.   And even if it tried to look at that, it would have to do a very detailed look at how the dynamics of the body motion may or may not have changed.   Looking just at the shaft doesn't tell us anything (or really doesn't tell us enough).     That video's a classic example of someone (without much proper scientific training) getting high tech tunnel vision - too caught up in the details of one or two data fields to see or understand the big picture.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[cwilk]

29 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry, no it doesn't.   That's 4 different flexes each swing by a different individual.   It doesn't even try to address the question of the same golfer swinging different flexes or how a player might react to changes in flex.   And even if it tried to look at that, it would have to do a very detailed look at how the dynamics of the body motion may or may not have changed.   Looking just at the shaft doesn't tell us anything (or really doesn't tell us enough).     That video's a classic example of someone (without much proper scientific training) getting high tech tunnel vision - too caught up in the details of one or two data fields to see or understand the big picture.

 

I’m not saying you are wrong, but I don’t think there is enough testing/data to ignore flex and shaft deflection as an independent variable that could increase/decrease club head speed. If you are aware of any robot testing please share. 
 

Even Kyle Berkshire has been known to use a regular flex shaft because he gains club head speed with it over the same shaft in stiffer flexes. 
 

“Paderson made an apperance on the WLD events over the last years, but it really shook the scene when Kyle Berkshire hit a regular flex shaft in 2019 with a clubheadspeed of 150+ mph and produced an astonishing 228 mph ballspeed in competition with it. Nowadays, a lot of professional Long Drivers hit the regular flex shaft and it has become a trend for amateurs as well.”

 

https://longdrivenetwork.com/equipment-news

Edited April 13, 2021 by cwilk

[Stuart_G]

24 minutes ago, cwilk said:

I’m not saying you are wrong, but I don’t think there is enough testing/data to ignore flex and shaft deflection as an independent variable that could increase/decrease club head speed. If you are aware of any robot testing please share. 
 

 

I never said one should ignore flex or that it can't help improve swing speed.  In fact I said that very well could be the case for the OP.   It's widely known that the subjective influence of the feel of the shaft has the potential to have significant effects on the swing and the results for many people.   But that's something that each individual has to examine during their fittings or testing - NOT try to depend on what might have happened with someone else.   And no one should get so caught up in a particular flex that they don't test a variety of shaft stiffness profiles.   And if they do a thorough job of that (look at all the effects of changing flex:  head speed, ball speed, face impact consistency, shot shape control, dispersion, etc...) then it really doesn't matter whether it's coming from the swing or directly from the shaft.  It is, after all, the results that matter.   Talking about the "why" is interesting, but not essential to understand.

 

But a search through some scientific publishing on the topic might get you the info your looking for - or even the Tutelman link might have references he cites you could follow up on.

 

Edit:  one of the papers on the subject was by Sasho MacKenzie and entitled: "The Influence of golf shaft stiffness on grip and clubhead kinematics"   You can probably find the pdf with a google search.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[MattC555]

That's a great paper Stuart.  Thanks. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

I'm curious what kind of monitor it was? Only reason is that some extrapolate swing speed. You aren't controlling for the clubhead so it would be hard to say it's just the shaft. I would hit whatever feels more comfortable. Was there a similar difference in ball speed?

[MattC555]

This was on a Trackman.  I don't remember if there was a difference in ball speed.  The two woods weren't the same loft.  Not sure if that would influence ball speed as well.  Total distance was basically the same.  I gained carry with the HL.