Thinking of wrist hinge in a different plane (lateral vs. vertical)?

[me05501]

A few recent Be Better Golf videos with Milo Lines have been really eye-opening for me, especially as someone who has always sucked the club back inside on the takeaway. 

 

Starting at about :40 here they show Milo's version of wrist hinge. It is more of a side-to-side or lateral change in the wrist angles rather than a vertical cocking.

 

This move seems to put the golfer into the "perfect backswing" position just as shown in Monte's NTC program and as recently shown on Chris Ryan's channel as well, but the way he gets his hands and the club into the right orientation is a little different. Same destination, different path to get there. 

 

This appeals to me since it's easier for me to do in one uninterrupted motion starting from the takeaway. Sure, you can c0ck the club straight up in front of your face and then rotate your shoulders into the correct position, but that's not an actual backswing and it doesn't help me feel the right path going back. 

 

My issue with a vertical wrist c0ck has always been that it puts my lead wrist in a weak position, which then has to be changed at some point during the swing. Whether it is the reverse motorcycle move or the first throw or whatever you want to call it, getting that cupped lead wrist into a flat or bowed position is difficult for me to do during the swing. This lateral concept of wrist c0ck puts the lead wrist in the ideal position right away, so there's no additional move needed to go from cupped to flat or bowed. 

 

Again, this may not interest someone who already has an ideal takeaway. I've tried a million tips and tricks to keep the club on plane and square to the path and my old habits always come back. Hoping this concept is different enough to work. 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by me05501

[exgolfpro]

Years ago, Nick Faldo had a beautiful big coffee table size instruction book.  The pictures of his swing were so nice.  But that was his version of a wrist c0ck as well.  Basically, the right knuckles get pulled back toward the top of the right forearm.  That was it.

 

 

Edit for punctuation

Edited April 12, 2021 by exgolfpro

[me05501]

Same move demonstrated well here. 

 

 

[TurnDog69]

3 hours ago, me05501 said:

A few recent Be Better Golf videos with Milo Lines have been really eye-opening for me, especially as someone who has always sucked the club back inside on the takeaway. 

 

Starting at about :40 here they show Milo's version of wrist hinge. It is more of a side-to-side or lateral change in the wrist angles rather than a vertical cocking.

 

This move seems to put the golfer into the "perfect backswing" position just as shown in Monte's NTC program and as recently shown on Chris Ryan's channel as well, but the way he gets his hands and the club into the right orientation is a little different. Same destination, different path to get there. 

 

This appeals to me since it's easier for me to do in one uninterrupted motion starting from the takeaway. Sure, you can c0ck the club straight up in front of your face and then rotate your shoulders into the correct position, but that's not an actual backswing and it doesn't help me feel the right path going back. 

 

My issue with a vertical wrist c0ck has always been that it puts my lead wrist in a weak position, which then has to be changed at some point during the swing. Whether it is the reverse motorcycle move or the first throw or whatever you want to call it, getting that cupped lead wrist into a flat or bowed position is difficult for me to do during the swing. This lateral concept of wrist c0ck puts the lead wrist in the ideal position right away, so there's no additional move needed to go from cupped to flat or bowed. 

 

Again, this may not interest someone who already has an ideal takeaway. I've tried a million tips and tricks to keep the club on plane and square to the path and my old habits always come back. Hoping this concept is different enough to work. 

 

 

I'm going to stamp this concept as a "whatever works for you" 

 

I've tried both methodologies of taking the club back. I think this method provides a safer floor and a lower ceiling. I think hinging "up" provides more ability and potential for a dynamic movement and hand speed but can get the wrist a little "cuppy" at the top and does have some lead wrist flexion required on the downswing etc. 

 

I have swung both ways for reference. I always felt the video's method of hinging felt a bit more like presetting impact early. I think this is great if you can't get there in the downswing. However, it always felt like it robbed me of a bit of speed as my hands were already in the position they were going to. 

 

I'll caveat this by saying I'm not an expert- I'm a crappy 10.5 handicap whose had a couple coaches and learned a couple things. I love Milo, I don't like the other guys in the video. The guy who shows the "other" type of hinging and says that it's patently incorrect is so enigmatic of modern day golf instruction claiming there is one proper way. I can show you people who hinge exactly like he says not to who would beat the dog snot out of him on the course. Hell, Bender preaches it every day and you'd be hard pressed to tell me anyone in this video knows how to coach the swing better than him

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by TurnDog69

[me05501]

That’s reasonable. Like all of this stuff, it depends on what a golfer needs and whether the content will help him get there. 
 

My pro is always somewhat surprised that I get the club back on plane and into a reasonable impact position and follow through, simply because I take the club back so inside and have to reroute so much at the top. I manage to correct it pretty well during the downswing but obviously it is way less efficient and reliable than we want. 
 

Honestly I like the idea of a higher floor and a lower ceiling, at least as it relates to full swings. The less full swing maintenance I need, the more time I can practice my short game and putting, which are both pretty decent for a handicap golfer.  I have a chance at being a great short game player but don’t have the physical skills to be an elite ball striker. 

[TurnDog69]

12 minutes ago, me05501 said:

That’s reasonable. Like all of this stuff, it depends on what a golfer needs and whether the content will help him get there. 
 

My pro is always somewhat surprised that I get the club back on plane and into a reasonable impact position and follow through, simply because I take the club back so inside and have to reroute so much at the top. I manage to correct it pretty well during the downswing but obviously it is way less efficient and reliable than we want. 
 

Honestly I like the idea of a higher floor and a lower ceiling, at least as it relates to full swings. The less full swing maintenance I need, the more time I can practice my short game and putting, which are both pretty decent for a handicap golfer.  I have a chance at being a great short game player but don’t have the physical skills to be an elite ball striker. 

 

A low maintenance swing?? Might have to drink out of the right chalice and find the holy grail first. 

 
I think I'm a masochist, I put the carrot on a stick and never stop chasing...something. I couldn't even tell you what I'm chasing in a swing at this point. 

[getitdaily]

I'm a vertical setter. Any move that even hints at the possibility of going inside is a death move for me. 

 

Different strokes...

[me05501]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

I'm a vertical setter. Any move that even hints at the possibility of going inside is a death move for me. 

 

Different strokes...

For sure. For me trying to hinge my wrists vertically only happens after I’ve put the club head way inside the path. I have a strong tendency to roll my lead arm when taking the club back. I’m always searching for any move that prevents/replaces that. 

[me05501]

Edited April 13, 2021 by me05501

[me05501]

Having trouble adding my comments to the vid post on iPad sorry.

 

I want to keep my hands close to my leg on the way back but haven’t been able to groove a move that does that while keeping the club head outside my hands. Then I c0ck my wrists vertically and my lead wrist gets about as cupped as range of motion will allow. That I even get it close to flat before impact is a minor miracle. 
 

I’m practicing with the lateral hinge and it definitely seems to fix that inside takeaway. I’m not doing it right away but I’m not really waiting either. Will capture some video tomorrow. 

[pinhigh27]

2 hours ago, me05501 said:

That’s reasonable. Like all of this stuff, it depends on what a golfer needs and whether the content will help him get there. 
 

My pro is always somewhat surprised that I get the club back on plane and into a reasonable impact position and follow through, simply because I take the club back so inside and have to reroute so much at the top. I manage to correct it pretty well during the downswing but obviously it is way less efficient and reliable than we want. 
 

Honestly I like the idea of a higher floor and a lower ceiling, at least as it relates to full swings. The less full swing maintenance I need, the more time I can practice my short game and putting, which are both pretty decent for a handicap golfer.  I have a chance at being a great short game player but don’t have the physical skills to be an elite ball striker. 

Says who? This is a flawed assumption

[me05501]

Just now, pinhigh27 said:

Says who? This is a flawed assumption

My demonstrated lack of natural talent in any sport? My lack of time left on earth at age 52? My lack of time available for lessons and practice? I could have been more explicit, but trust me when I say I know myself! No one with four working limbs has ever described me as athletic. 

[me05501]

31 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

Are we speaking of dorsiflexion aka (hyper)extension of the right wrist?  That was indeed Faldo’s key to the wrist “set.” I believe he said “lag” really meant to maintain right wrist dorsiflexion though impact.  I think there is a video of

 

I think a lot of people (myself included at  retain woeful times) cup their left wrists at the top as a substitute for a full turn in order to get what feels or looks like a complete backswing.  A proper wrist set seems to me to come much easier or more or less automatically if the leg and hips are moving right.

 

There is no choice between right wrist dorsiflexion and left radial deviation.

At some point you need both.

I definitely think that “faking a backswing” is another habit that creeps up on me. Focusing on really getting my lead should behind the ball always helps my contact and distance. 

[glk]

You don’t want your hands to go back close to your body - that pretty much guarantees and inside move.  
 

you also need to start setting your wrists much earlier.   Here is the physics, when at setup and wrists in ulnar the forearms have little moi (moment of interim or resistance to twisting).  As you set The wrists the moi increases maki g it more difficult to twist them.   You take it inside with no wrist set again guaranteed  forearm roll, arms too 

across the body and steep downswing swing

 

yiur left hand grip should have the heel pad in top of the club - use this to radial deviate the left wrist while extending the right - start this and do it gradually thru the takeaway.

 

think right forearm on top of left - that will stop the forearm roll.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIqOn9ilTZD/

 

also body needs to run in synch with pivot otherwise it is easy, especially if you don’t set the wrists early, to roll the forearms across your chest. Arms and Pivot need to be in synch in takeaway and backswing not only in downswing.    Arms can start first but the pivot follows very, very closely.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

pretend a person is standing to your right with their left hand extend out to you for a handshake and that hand is just outside your toes of the right foot - turn to shake with your left hand, keep your elbow pointing at the ground (this is the feel thru out the backswing, elbow pointing at the ground).  
 

here is a good DD lesson that applies to you - especially the left arm but not wrist set.    Note Dana early explains the guys issue with sucking inside, then at 2:30 shows him how he wants the left arm to work, and again starting at 4:00 mark where he physically puts him into the desired left arm takeaway - first he asks him to throw it back like the hand shake example I have.    You need to get your left arm working like this.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGqCDO0ixqL/

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by glk

[me05501]

10 minutes ago, glk said:

You don’t want your hands to go back close to your body - that pretty much guarantees and inside move.  
 

you also need to start setting your wrists much earlier.   Here is the physics, when at setup and wrists in ulnar the forearms have little moi (moment of interim or resistance to twisting).  As you set The wrists the moi increases maki g it more difficult to twist them.   You take it inside with no wrist set again guaranteed  forearm roll, arms too 

across the body and steep downswing swing

 

yiur left hand grip should have the heel pad in top of the club - use this to radial deviate the left wrist while extending the right - start this and do it gradually thru the takeaway.

 

think right forearm on top of left - that will stop the forearm roll.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIqOn9ilTZD/

 

also body needs to run in synch with pivot otherwise it is easy, especially if you don’t set the wrists early, to roll the forearms across your chest. Arms and Pivot need to be in synch in takeaway and backswing not only in downswing.    Arms can start first but the pivot follows very, very closely.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

pretend a person is standing to your right with their left hand extend out to you for a handshake and that hand is just outside your toes of the right foot - turn to shake with your left hand, keep your elbow pointing at the ground (this is the feel thru out the backswing, elbow pointing at the ground).  
 

here is a good DD lesson that applies to you - especially the left arm but not wrist set.    Note Dana early explains the guys issue with sucking inside, then at 2:30 shows him how he wants the left arm to work, and again starting at 4:00 mark where he physically puts him into the desired left arm takeaway - first he asks him to throw it back like the hand shake example I have.    You need to get your left arm working like this.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGqCDO0ixqL/

 

 

 

Thanks, that’s helpful. Definitely it looks to me like the player in the DD vid is getting to the same position I *feel* like I’m getting to when I try to set my hands as described in the OP video. But I don’t have any video of me making that swing yet so I could be way off. 

[glk]

5 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Thanks, that’s helpful. Definitely it looks to me like the player in the DD vid is getting to the same position I *feel* like I’m getting to when I try to set my hands as described in the OP video. But I don’t have any video of me making that swing yet so I could be way off. 

I fixed this in my mid 60s so can’t imagine why you can’t at a much younger age.   Iteach had me doing the stick drill and arms straight.    Big part of my issue was lack of pivot to go with arms.    Poor wrist set was more a reaction to my rolling my arms inside with no wrist set - getting my arms and pivot to work together led to it being easy to make a good wrist set and stand the club up.   Just working on wrist set is a dead end if the cause is in a poor arm pivot movement.

[glk]

Don’t know what drills might click with you best

 

 here are two good one from amg

 

first drill to set wrists

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJoJjW_jp93/

 

second to feel swing club back without sucking inside (I like drills that start by swinging the club forward first)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMZo9jYjbIE/

 

 

[naj959]

When I took my first online lesson from Iteach many moons ago, the first thing he had me do was get my right wrist bent during the takeaway. It was more or less the exact move Milo demonstrates. I have a bad habit of trying to make too much of a one piece takeaway and end up moving the club outside. From there It's steep city. Still creeps in from time to time and inevitably leads to a stretch of poor play. After a couple more lessons I was told to incorporate the wrist hinge and blend the movements. The lateral hinge is definitely a viable move depending upon where you are coming from and what tendencies you need to correct.

[TheDeanAbides]

9 hours ago, glk said:

You don’t want your hands to go back close to your body - that pretty much guarantees and inside move.  
 

you also need to start setting your wrists much earlier.   Here is the physics, when at setup and wrists in ulnar the forearms have little moi (moment of interim or resistance to twisting).  As you set The wrists the moi increases maki g it more difficult to twist them.   You take it inside with no wrist set again guaranteed  forearm roll, arms too 

across the body and steep downswing swing

 

yiur left hand grip should have the heel pad in top of the club - use this to radial deviate the left wrist while extending the right - start this and do it gradually thru the takeaway.

 

think right forearm on top of left - that will stop the forearm roll.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIqOn9ilTZD/

 

also body needs to run in synch with pivot otherwise it is easy, especially if you don’t set the wrists early, to roll the forearms across your chest. Arms and Pivot need to be in synch in takeaway and backswing not only in downswing.    Arms can start first but the pivot follows very, very closely.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

pretend a person is standing to your right with their left hand extend out to you for a handshake and that hand is just outside your toes of the right foot - turn to shake with your left hand, keep your elbow pointing at the ground (this is the feel thru out the backswing, elbow pointing at the ground).  
 

here is a good DD lesson that applies to you - especially the left arm but not wrist set.    Note Dana early explains the guys issue with sucking inside, then at 2:30 shows him how he wants the left arm to work, and again starting at 4:00 mark where he physically puts him into the desired left arm takeaway - first he asks him to throw it back like the hand shake example I have.    You need to get your left arm working like this.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGqCDO0ixqL/

 

 

 

Perfect. Saved me a post. 😉

[me05501]

Some people are visual learners, some auditory, some can learn something after being told once and others need to be told over and over again. 

 

My brain craves a direct replacement for an incorrect technique. This has been consistent across every aspect of my life and lessons I have taken to learn various skills. Frustrated instructors have learned the hard way that telling me NOT to do something specific is nearly pointless. Showing me a specific replacement for my incorrect technique can get almost immediate results.

 

Even simple messaging tweaks can have a huge effect on my ability to follow directions. "Don't feel any tension" is not helpful. "Feel loose and free" is great. They mean the same thing, right? You'd think so, but the human brain is a complex machine. If you don't want someone to feel tension you shouldn't use the word "tension" at all. 

 

Long story short, I've tried plenty to "not roll my arms." I've implemented techniques meant to make it impossible to roll my arms. My arms still roll. It's just what I feel is correct when taking the club back.

 

OTOH if I give my wrists something specific to do (a direct replacement) I am much more likely to end up where I want to be. At least that's my hope...

Edited April 13, 2021 by me05501

[TheDeanAbides]

2 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Some people are visual learners, some auditory, some can learn something after being told once and others need to be told over and over again. 

 

My brain craves a direct replacement for an incorrect technique. This has been consistent across every aspect of my life and lessons I have taken to learn various skills. Frustrated instructors have learned the hard way that telling me NOT to do something specific is nearly pointless. Showing me a specific replacement for my incorrect technique can get almost immediate results.

 

Even simple messaging tweaks can have a huge effect on my ability to follow directions. "Don't feel any tension" is not helpful. "Feel loose and free" is great. They mean the same thing, right? You'd think so, but the human brain is a complex machine. If you don't want someone to feel tension you shouldn't use the word "tension" at all. 

 

Long story short, I've tried plenty to "not roll my arms." I've implemented techniques meant to make it impossible to roll my arms. My arms still roll. It's just what I feel is correct when taking the club back.

 

OTOH if I give my wrists something specific to do (a direct replacement) I am much more likely to end up where I want to be. At least that's my hope...

IMHO, "Don't do that" is a terrible teaching technique. 

[me05501]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

IMHO, "Don't do that" is a terrible teaching technique. 

 

I agree completely, but it's also a very popular one! 

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

I agree completely, but it's also a very popular one! 

If it's followed by "Do this instead" it's fine, of course, but you already said that. 

[Hilts1969]

22 hours ago, me05501 said:

A few recent Be Better Golf videos with Milo Lines have been really eye-opening for me, especially as someone who has always sucked the club back inside on the takeaway. 

 

Starting at about :40 here they show Milo's version of wrist hinge. It is more of a side-to-side or lateral change in the wrist angles rather than a vertical cocking.

 

This move seems to put the golfer into the "perfect backswing" position just as shown in Monte's NTC program and as recently shown on Chris Ryan's channel as well, but the way he gets his hands and the club into the right orientation is a little different. Same destination, different path to get there. 

 

This appeals to me since it's easier for me to do in one uninterrupted motion starting from the takeaway. Sure, you can c0ck the club straight up in front of your face and then rotate your shoulders into the correct position, but that's not an actual backswing and it doesn't help me feel the right path going back. 

 

My issue with a vertical wrist c0ck has always been that it puts my lead wrist in a weak position, which then has to be changed at some point during the swing. Whether it is the reverse motorcycle move or the first throw or whatever you want to call it, getting that cupped lead wrist into a flat or bowed position is difficult for me to do during the swing. This lateral concept of wrist c0ck puts the lead wrist in the ideal position right away, so there's no additional move needed to go from cupped to flat or bowed. 

 

Again, this may not interest someone who already has an ideal takeaway. I've tried a million tips and tricks to keep the club on plane and square to the path and my old habits always come back. Hoping this concept is different enough to work. 

 

 

 

You actually have next to no rang of motion when cocking the wrists ie radial deviation. Because of this when people think they are vertically cocking the wrists they aint. By trying to c0ck them vertically one of the wrists must hinge.

 

If you put your arm flat on a table and try to c0ck the wrist without any cup you will notice it's not possible outside of a minute amount.

 

If one trys to vertically c0ck the wrists then one wrist will cup the other flatten.  It's why you should c0ck the wrists at an angle to make sure the left doesn't cup if that's the preferred outcome. 

 

At set up if 12 oclock is in front of you c0ck at 10 o'clock and then at 2 o'clock and notice the hinge that happens automatically.

 

Now try and hinge to 12 o'clock vertically so the club is right in front of your face. Something has to give so both your elbows chicken wing.

 

I think AMG suggest hinging at a 45 degree angle to the right for right handed golfers. Flat left wrist cupped right wrist naturally follows.

 

 

[me05501]

OP here. So I used this thought on the course today with good results. Wish I'd had my partner take a video so I could see whether I'm actually doing what I think or just less of what I'm trying to avoid. 

The feeling for me is somewhat like what a pro I had used to call "the lag drill." He encouraged us to drag the clubhead along the ground on the way back until it left contact with the ground on its own, make a full turn and then keep that very loose hands feeling on the way down. Thinking about that today it was clear to me that if done correctly that drill kind of lets the club set laterally and requires no vertical cocking. 

 

I'll continue to experiment and try to get a little video tomorrow. 

[coops]

This idea reminds me of "Dante's 4 Magic Moves" book - you can see the relevant wrist hinge here:-

http://www.golf-swing-magic.com/golf-backswing2.html

 

and the following part 3, using the thumb press to get it done

http://www.golf-swing-magic.com/golf-backswing3.html

 

It does also remind of the preset position in the Faldo pump drill, which i've used and hit great shots with too...

 

 

 

https://golf.com/instruction/nick-faldo-pre-set-drill/

Edited April 14, 2021 by coops

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, coops said:

This idea reminds me of "Dante's 4 Magic Moves" book - you can see the relevant wrist hinge here:-

http://www.golf-swing-magic.com/golf-backswing2.html

 

and the following part 3, using the thumb press to get it done

http://www.golf-swing-magic.com/golf-backswing3.html

 

It does also remind of the preset position in the Faldo pump drill, which i've used and hit great shots with too...

 

 

 

https://golf.com/instruction/nick-faldo-pre-set-drill/

Man, I haven't read that little book in nearly two decades. Funny how I've come almost full circle to that early wrist break with NTC. 

[oscar10]

On 4/14/2021 at 3:59 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

Man, I haven't read that little book in nearly two decades. Funny how I've come almost full circle to that early wrist break with NTC. 

That is funny. I think of that book every time someone mentions the motorcycle grip move. Not for the early wrist set  though. Kind of feel that the quick wrist set advocated in that book is too early. Am I wrong? 

[me05501]

I played a tough course yesterday with this lateral hinge idea in mind. I feel like it works well for me. On 10/14 driver holes I hit excellent drives for me. 

 

My misses so far are a bit worse. I shanked a couple of short approaches. I think that is likely tension-related, trying a new move on the course without significant range time to groove it. I also hit some really pure iron shots that flew further than I would have expected. 

 

Promising, so far. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, oscar10 said:

That is funny. I think of that book every time someone mentions the motorcycle grip move. Not for the early wrist set  though. Kind of feel that the quick wrist set advocated in that book is too early. Am I wrong? 

No. You need to think about the wrist set straight off the ball for it to happen correctly.