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Lie angle and shot shape.


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My usual shot shape with irons is a draw. My bad shot is a pull draw. My really bad shot is a full-on pull hook.

 

My (main) swing flaw is coming back too far inside and then coming over the top.

 

I’m 6’ 3 and play standard length shafts.

 

A while back I had a fitting and was prescribed irons 2* flat to ameliorate this.

 

Recently I’ve had a hankering for the pretty copper Cobra Forged Tec irons and so had a fitting today.

 

The fitter said the flat lie was at best a band-aid and at worst making the problem worse.

 

He fitted me 4 degrees up. I still hit everything left until I switched to my rarely used ‘fade’ swing in an attempt to get my backswing straighter. I normally only use with hybrids.
 

Lo and behold, a lovely sequence of slight draws, dead straight and even the odd baby fade.

 

A lie board test showed dead centre markings.

 

Even before the session he was flabbergasted I’d been fitted to a flat lie, which I thought flew in the face of accepted practice.

 

But the results were eye opening.

 

As was the ‘winning’ shaft.

 

I’m 60 and these days my 7 iron ball speed has dropped to just below 110mph. I play C Taper Lite regular, and every other fitting I’ve had has suggested even lighter graphite shafts.

 

Today we had best results from the $-Taper stiff which I insisted on trying because it is available in black.

 

I’ve ordered the clubs so it will be interesting to see if this translates on the course.

Edited by sfdoddsy

Mavrik Ventus Velocore
Cobra F6 Baffler

Ping G410/Epic Flash Hybrids
Cobra Forged Tec Copper Irons
Cleveland CBX2 wedges
PXG One and Done

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i tried the ‘Fade Swing’ with my current PXG irons (2 flat) and did indeed hit them better, although not as better.   The lie board still had them toe down.   I’ve done the sharpie

You probably need longer clubs, regardless of whatever lie angle seems to be helping your shot results

The old argument. Does one build to their swing or modify their swing to the build?

21 minutes ago, sfdoddsy said:

The fitter said the flat lie was at best a band-aid and at worst making the problem worse.

 

He's right about that - and not even a very good band aid.  The effect of lie angle on the shaft shape is actually quite small - maybe 2-3 yards per degree.  And that's assuming the lie angle setting doesn't negatively effect the setup.

 

 

Quote

He fitted me 4 degrees up.

 

A lie board test showed dead centre markings.

 

Did you try that same "fade" swing with more normal lie angles?   Or only after he adjusted it to +4?

 

Lie boards are notorious for fitting folks into a much more upright lie than they really need.   Do this simple test yourself to get a better idea of where the lie angles really should be.

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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Using a lie board would worry me with any fitter if im honest, but hey if your hitting it better then who cares

 

Must say for someone who is 6' 3 having a flat lie doesnt sound right to me, also adjusting the lie of clubs to compensate for something definitely doesnt work from my own personal experience

Driver: :taylormade-small: Sim2 MAX 9*

3 Wood: :taylormade-small: Sim Max 15*

Hybrid:     :ping-small: G 19*

Hybrid Irons: :adams-small:  Pro DHY 21 & 24*

Irons:       :ping-small: i500 6-PW

Gap Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 3 50*

Wedges: :taylormade-small: Hi-Toe Raw 54 & 58*

Putter:  :odyssey-small:  O-Works 7

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 The effect of lie angle on the shaft shape is actually quite small - maybe 2-3 yards per degree.

 

+1 on this. I play 2° upright, and with standard clubs I get a very slight fade.

 

2° is not going to radically change ball flight or fix and flaws.

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Nike VR Pro Limited Edition 15° 3W - Attas Coool 6S
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Bridgestone Tour B XD-H 3H 21° - KBS Tour Prototype 85 X
Nike VR Pro Blades 3-PW Dynamic Gold AMT Tour White S300 Onyx

Nike VR Pro 52°-10° Raw Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400 Onyx
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Grips - Number One 50 Pro Series

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Ideally we want lie angles that fit and going one direction or another to fix a flaw doesn’t work.  From a swing perspective, you being too flat has accentuated your flaws. It’s forced you to go further over the top to get back on top of the ball through impact. 4 degrees upright is a huge change but I’m pretty positive at your height you are closer to where you should be. This will give you the opportunity to maintain your angles and just swing through impact. If you find it’s slightly too upright when you get them you can always have them adjusted a little.  I’m a big believer that improper lie angles create major swing flaws.

SRIXON ZX5 9.5 MIYAZAKI MIZORE 60X.                                              SRIXON ZX 13.5 MIYAZAKI MIZORE 70X                                               SRIXON H85 16 MATRIX BLACKTIE 95 SRIXON Z FORGED 4-PW CATALYST 100 6.5                                   CLEVELAND RTX4 50* CATALYST 100 6.0                                        CLEVELAND RTX4 54* CATALYST 100 6.0                                         CLEVELAND RTX4 58* CATALYST 100 6.0.                                             SEEMORE mFGP20 PLATINUM 38” SNELL MTB-X

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1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

He's right about that - and not even a very good band aid.  The effect of lie angle on the shaft shape is actually quite small - maybe 2-3 yards per degree.  And that's assuming the lie angle setting doesn't negatively effect the setup.

 

 

 

Did you try that same "fade" swing with more normal lie angles?   Or only after he adjusted it to +4?

 

Lie boards are notorious for fitting folks into a much more upright lie than they really need.   Do this simple test yourself to get a better idea of where the lie angles really should be.

 

 


i tried the ‘Fade Swing’ with my current PXG irons (2 flat) and did indeed hit them better, although not as better.

 

The lie board still had them toe down.

 

I’ve done the sharpie test previously with my current set and it did indeed indicate they were notably flat. Since this is what we were going for I saw it as confirmation, not an issue.

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Mavrik Ventus Velocore
Cobra F6 Baffler

Ping G410/Epic Flash Hybrids
Cobra Forged Tec Copper Irons
Cleveland CBX2 wedges
PXG One and Done

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Can someone explain to me where the ball impact point changes to on a 5 iron bent 2* flat, neutral, and 2* upright?  When I google "effects of lie angle", I find countless diagrams of an iron face with shaded "dimed out" areas out toward toe for flat lies, at center of face for neutral, and toward heel for upright.  I get the loft axis tilt.  I am trying to understand how bending an iron flat produces strikes on the toe, if the rest of the club is the same in all scenarios.  To me, when looking at the face straight on (righty) and you bend it flat, you rotate the head counterclockwise, so why wouldn't the center of the face then rotate up and to right?  I'm envisioning an Iron Byron for all 3 lie angle setups....ball tee'd same height, lie angle of the shaft is the same, swing is the same, there are no divots, no toe drag, with Iron Byron, etc.  I don't buy that toe hits come from flat lies, nor heel side hits come from upright.  My reason for asking:  I play 3-4-5 irons 1* up, 6-PW factory and wedges 2* flat.  Had to buy a replacement 5 iron which came 2* flat.  Can't hit the darn thing.  Exact same club, shaft, length, grip, weight, otherwise.  Will get it bent back to my specs, but just curious.  My strike marks are NOT on toe, but they appear higher on face, ball flight is lower and weaker.  I am keeping shaft angle at address as I normally would, which almost appears to hold the heel side of sole above the ground 2*.  I am NOT lowering my my hands at address to sit the sole level with ground.

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And just to confuse the matter even more, I was bored the other day and for no sensible reason booked myself into a hour of fitting at one of the more boutique Trackman-equipped fitters in town. Cool Clubs to be precise.

 

First bit was a driver shaft shoot-out (Hzrdus Smoke v AD VR in my Mavrik). The fitter was very confident the VR would be best. Unsurprising since he fitted it to me. Alas, the numbers were basically identical.

 

In his defence, I'm lucky enough to have a good POA, good launch and good spin so pretty much any driver I try works well.

 

Then we got the the irons.

 

According to his machine my current irons are not 2* flat. They are standard.

 

He thought that was about right. And lo and behold I was hitting the irons we tried pretty much dead straight.

 

When two (supposedly) expert fitters give such divergent opinions it makes one wonder.

 

But my eyebrow was raised more by the 4* upright recommendation.

 

(UPDATE!) As it happens (and as I was typing this post) I was informed that Cobra cannot bend the irons that upright in any case.

 

 

Mavrik Ventus Velocore
Cobra F6 Baffler

Ping G410/Epic Flash Hybrids
Cobra Forged Tec Copper Irons
Cleveland CBX2 wedges
PXG One and Done

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46 minutes ago, sfdoddsy said:

And just to confuse the matter even more, I was bored the other day and for no sensible reason booked myself into a hour of fitting at one of the more boutique Trackman-equipped fitters in town. Cool Clubs to be precise.

 

First bit was a driver shaft shoot-out (Hzrdus Smoke v AD VR in my Mavrik). The fitter was very confident the VR would be best. Unsurprising since he fitted it to me. Alas, the numbers were basically identical.

 

In his defence, I'm lucky enough to have a good POA, good launch and good spin so pretty much any driver I try works well.

 

Then we got the the irons.

 

According to his machine my current irons are not 2* flat. They are standard.

 

He thought that was about right. And lo and behold I was hitting the irons we tried pretty much dead straight.

 

When two (supposedly) expert fitters give such divergent opinions it makes one wonder.

 

But my eyebrow was raised more by the 4* upright recommendation.

 

(UPDATE!) As it happens (and as I was typing this post) I was informed that Cobra cannot bend the irons that upright in any case.

 

 

I have seen the forged tec's bent 4*, so my assumption will be that it is because of the unique coating they use for the gold color is why they will not bend them that far.

 

I know people that bend lie based on ball flight, but I do not believe in that wholly. It MAY be better bending for ball flight than a lie board, but I think both are poor choices.

 

I have had good fitters and bad fitters, but all of the good ones I have spoken to about Howard's use of a vertical line with a dry erase marker aligned perpendicular to the ground think it is the best way.   The good ones know how to use a trackman or GC4 or something similar to do it.

 

For those that do not have a good fitter that knows how to use one of those tools that way, the best bet is using the dry erase marker.  Also at your height if you go with longer length shafts it technically affect lie angle too.  I play a "standard" length 7 iron, and go down 1/4" gaps from there to the GW.  SW and LW are the same length.  I go up from the 7 iron in 3/8" increments.  FWIW I am only 6'1", but my swing functions better when I stand taller and use longer lengths in the short irons.  I like the extra leverage I get from 3/8" gaps going to the long irons than I did 1/4" gaps. 

 

Also 1/4" going down helps work better with my preferred gappings without having to bend loft too much, same for the longer irons at 3/8".

  • Driver - Epic Max LS
  • 4 Wood - Company that shall not be named, turned down 1* and open on a UST Mamaiya Black
  • 7 Wood - Company that shall not be named, turned down 1* and open on a UST Mamaiya Black
  • Hybrid - Ping G400 17*
  • Irons - Srixon ZX4 4 iron on Recoil 110
  • Irons - Srixon ZX5 5 iron on Recoil 110
  • Irons - Srixon ZX7 (6-PW) on Recoil 110
  • Wedges - Cleveland 50* mid Zipcore, Callaway MD5 54*, Cleveland Zipcore 60* Mid all on Recoil 110
  • Putters -  Sunset Beach Ocracoke or Mannkrafted MA/66
  • Ball - TP5 or Srixon Z Star 
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