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Thoughts on the "How to hit a fade" video from TXG


mgoblue83
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I'm always working on trying to hit a powerful and consistent fade and this video provided some ideas and feels that I've never thought about before.

 

Primarily: Trail arm curling and extending while keeping the elbow tight to the body.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts, comments, experience, or feels regarding this video and technique?

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edited by mgoblue83
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3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

All good stuff.  I agree not anything that isn't already out there, just a different explanation, so if this one sticks for some players, awesome. The biggest take away is using the arms to manage the shaft plane and get them sycned up with the pivot. As opposed to using excessive right tilt, which stalls out rotation and makes it nearly impossible to link up the arms, which most amateur drawers of the ball do (myself included)

 

That arm action looks similar to the Rose drill that Monte talks about, AMG has something similar with the Rory pump drill. If you don't have to compensate with the body for a steep shaft early in transition, the pivot doesn't need to stall and you can rotate hard through the shot without fear of the left of left. Really one of those counter-intuitive parts of the swings, most stall flip hookers think they are "armsy", so try to engage more body, but in reality they don't use their hands correctly early and thus are forced to use them a lot late. The hardest part for me is overcoming the feeling that the club is just going to stick right into the ground.

 

You nailed it. I also have a tendency to shut down the face so the feeling of rotating hard and exiting left just screams for a huge overdraw. Any tips for keeping the face right of the path while still releasing hard?

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Just now, mgoblue83 said:

 

You nailed it. I also have a tendency to shut down the face so the feeling of rotating hard and exiting left just screams for a huge overdraw. Any tips for keeping the face right of the path while still releasing hard?

You need to do all the other good stuff first such that you aren't dealing with a steep shaft and open face early in the swing. If you get steep early and right tilt to shallow as a compensation, it does exactly what they say in the video, shifts path way right and opens the face. So you have to slam it shut at the bottom to prevent the huge block, combine that with the extreme path and you get the boomerang.

 

If you can lay down the shaft and manage the face early, get arms linked with the pivot and rotate through impact with shaft lean, you will have to fully release the club to prevent it from going too far right (leaning the shaft inherently opens the face). So it seems like a similar issue, but in reality it's quite different. The difference is the path is going to be much more neutral, so the ball isn't going to curve nearly as much ( or potentially curve right). Just a real mind bender to think you can play with a shut face when you are trying your best to prevent the left miss.  It's basically an entirely different away to swing the club, not a short term fix. 

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The fade that scott is describing isn’t what most people would call a full release fade it actually the opposite. Most of the speed is supposed to be supplied by the pivot. In this particular model you need to have a lot of flexibility to maintain the external rotation of the trail shoulder that late into the downswing. 
 

Scott didn’t get into wrist and angles in such..he actually only touch on a very small portion to the things needed or desired for the fade pattern. 
 

I’m currently working on one of his “constant radius” patterns 

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Don't have time to watch the video rt now. But I play a fade. My swing thoughts are

 

- swing the handle (what feels like) outside. I swing it on my foot or shoulder line which is set slightly open at address

- smooth transition

- swing low and left through impact. I feel like I really cannot swing left enough

- slight "hold on" with the left hand. When I moved to a fade 3 years ago after 30 years of a draw, one of the key things I did was try to have the back of my left hand point at the target for as long as possible 

 

Rotate, rotate, rotate....if you stop or stall the body in the downswing you will get into pulls...

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26 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

You need to do all the other good stuff first such that you aren't dealing with a steep shaft and open face early in the swing. If you get steep early and right tilt to shallow as a compensation, it does exactly what they say in the video, shifts path way right and opens the face. So you have to slam it shut at the bottom to prevent the huge block, combine that with the extreme path and you get the boomerang.

 

If you can lay down the shaft and manage the face early, get arms linked with the pivot and rotate through impact with shaft lean, you will have to fully release the club to prevent it from going too far right (leaning the shaft inherently opens the face). So it seems like a similar issue, but in reality it's quite different. The difference is the path is going to be much more neutral, so the ball isn't going to curve nearly as much ( or potentially curve right). Just a real mind bender to think you can play with a shut face when you are trying your best to prevent the left miss.  It's basically an entirely different away to swing the club, not a short term fix. 

 

I really have no sensation of needing to slam the face shut to prevent a block but it very well could be subconscious. I just have a complete inability to keep the clubface right of my path consistently. I'm a 2 handicap and hit it flush with a lot of speed but club face control is hard. I can change my path easily through setup and intent but the club face just seems to go along for the ride instead of staying neutral. For example - I can alter my path -10 to +10 (confirmed on Trackman) but whatever it is the face is always slightly more closed meaning I can never actually fade the ball. You are correct in that the way I shift my my path left is not ideal (gets steep) but it still should hit a fade or slice. 

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9 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Don't have time to watch the video rt now. But I play a fade. My swing thoughts are

 

- swing the handle (what feels like) outside. I swing it on my foot or shoulder line which is set slightly open at address

- smooth transition

- swing low and left through impact. I feel like I really cannot swing left enough

- slight "hold on" with the left hand. When I moved to a fade 3 years ago after 30 years of a draw, one of the key things I did was try to have the back of my left hand point at the target for as long as possible 

 

Rotate, rotate, rotate....if you stop or stall the body in the downswing you will get into pulls...

 

How do you avoid losing speed while holding off the release?

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30 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

I really have no sensation of needing to slam the face shut to prevent a block but it very well could be subconscious. I just have a complete inability to keep the clubface right of my path consistently. I'm a 2 handicap and hit it flush with a lot of speed but club face control is hard. I can change my path easily through setup and intent but the club face just seems to go along for the ride instead of staying neutral. For example - I can alter my path -10 to +10 (confirmed on Trackman) but whatever it is the face is always slightly more closed meaning I can never actually fade the ball. You are correct in that the way I shift my my path left is not ideal (gets steep) but it still should hit a fade or slice. 

Have you tried closing it earlier so you don't need to close it late ? Ie the motorcycle move? What does your lead wrist look like early in transition? 

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4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Have you tried closing it earlier so you don't need to close it late ? Ie the motorcycle move? What does your lead wrist look like early in transition? 

 

I very much bow my wrist early in the back swing (before DJ even does it). It's a shut face throughout transition and clearly at impact as well.

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56 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

How do you avoid losing speed while holding off the release?

Swing hard. Rotate hard. 

 

One reason I wanted to go to a fade was to get more faxes control. I don't swing any slower. My ball speed isn't any slower. Gain control by getting away from a hand oriented release.

Edited by getitdaily
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That video is like so much in life - how something is said or demonstrated could be heard or understood by some but not by the majority.  TXG is informational but not always very instructional, least for me.  

 

In that vid it was hard to determine what exactly they wanted to fix.   It "sounded" like he hits a draw and wants to hit a power fade.  But why?  Seems as if the better solution is to learn greater control of what already works to a limited degree.  IMO that instructor was providing too much minutia for the viewer to take what was shown, dissect it and relate it to his own needs.

 

I hit a straight ball, and move it left or right when needed, so much of what was said in the vid was minutia of the unusable kind. 😛  Of the seven "7" styles of learning the best for me are "Visual", "Kinesthetic", "Logical" and "Solitary" learning are my strengths. 

 

 

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Great video - really good cues in there.

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As a golfer that has always fought a hook I found this video very intriguing and got to hit a few balls today trying out some of his suggestions.  Unfortunately, I did not have my spoon.  Trying to practice a new backswing thought along with a new downswing thought proved a little challenging, nevertheless, I had some moderate success with it and a hopeful path forward in ingraining a consistent fade.  The feel of slapping the back of the right hand on top of the left thigh was the key feel for me and makes the release feel so much different and helps the right arm stay lower in the follow through.  Scott talked about some concepts on how the right arm works that I haven't heard mentioned in quite the same way.  Not sure what others thought was minutia and I found it very relatable to my specific needs.  Gold Jerry!

 

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On 4/13/2021 at 12:02 PM, getitdaily said:

Swing hard. Rotate hard. 

 

One reason I wanted to go to a fade was to get more faxes control. I don't swing any slower. My ball speed isn't any slower. Gain control by getting away from a hand oriented release.

My stock shot is a draw and has been since I started golf 32 years ago.  I started working on incorporating the fade last year.  You have excellent points.  I had a conversation with one of my buddies who is a +4 cap.  He says that in order for him to hit a fade, he focuses on rotating and clearing his hips as quickly as possible and emphasize on opening that left shoulder slightly on the down swing.  This is what I do now but I also find that if I manipulate my grip to be slightly weaker it helps as well.  I can't hit a fade on command 100% of the time, but it's slowly coming along.  I'm hoping that once I get decent at hitting a fade, it will help me drop my handicap to scratch eventually. 

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2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

My stock shot is a draw and has been since I started golf 32 years ago.  I started working on incorporating the fade last year.  You have excellent points.  I had a conversation with one of my buddies who is a +4 cap.  He says that in order for him to hit a fade, he focuses on rotating and clearing his hips as quickly as possible and emphasize on opening that left shoulder slightly on the down swing.  This is what I do now but I also find that if I manipulate my grip to be slightly weaker it helps as well.  I can't hit a fade on command 100% of the time, but it's slowly coming along.  I'm hoping that once I get decent at hitting a fade, it will help me drop my handicap to scratch eventually. 

Careful with that weaker grip. Last thing you want when hitting a fade is to have the face too open.

 

As for that left shoulder move. I'm incorporating some that now. One of my setup keys is to be slightly open with my shoulders. But I tend to slide laterally on the downswing because I get a bit too leg and hip dominant in the downswing. I practice a lot with a headcover under my left armpit. I swing to the top, stop, then work to keep the left arm pinned while my left shoulder rotated around and back. Helps slow my hips down and immediately shifts pressure into my left heal AND pulls the left hip around. 

 

Another key for my consistent fade is the thought of "hands low and left " through impact. This really helps with path and maintaining side bend through impact. As a former drawer, I cannot swing left enough is my thought. 

 

Swing hard left. Keep hands low. Hold the back of the left hand at the target as long as you can. Easy peasy fade. 

 

Sequence down feeling comes and goes for me. When I get too quick with hips then I get a bit wipey and my path creeps less left. When I get too armsy I start to get too close to square face to path and get some pulls going. What helps there is to keep my backswing short. 

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2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Careful with that weaker grip. Last thing you want when hitting a fade is to have the face too open.

 

As for that left shoulder move. I'm incorporating some that now. One of my setup keys is to be slightly open with my shoulders. But I tend to slide laterally on the downswing because I get a bit too leg and hip dominant in the downswing. I practice a lot with a headcover under my left armpit. I swing to the top, stop, then work to keep the left arm pinned while my left shoulder rotated around and back. Helps slow my hips down and immediately shifts pressure into my left heal AND pulls the left hip around. 

 

Another key for my consistent fade is the thought of "hands low and left " through impact. This really helps with path and maintaining side bend through impact. As a former drawer, I cannot swing left enough is my thought. 

 

Swing hard left. Keep hands low. Hold the back of the left hand at the target as long as you can. Easy peasy fade. 

 

Sequence down feeling comes and goes for me. When I get too quick with hips then I get a bit wipey and my path creeps less left. When I get too armsy I start to get too close to square face to path and get some pulls going. What helps there is to keep my backswing short. 

 

This makes perfect sense but I can't stop turning the club over when my thought is to swing left. Like the more left I move my path the more left the face gets so I end up hitting the same exact shot (pull draw) that starts progressively farther left. 

 

I'm completely clear on face/path relationships I just can't get my club face right of the path... ever. 

Edited by mgoblue83
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11 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This makes perfect sense but I can't stop turning the club over when my thought is to swing left. Like the more left I move my path the more left the face gets so I end up hitting the same exact shot (pull draw) that starts progressively farther left. 

 

I'm completely clear on face/path relationships I just can't get my club face right of the path... ever. 

Practice an exaggerated release move where you never let the left hand roll over. Hold the back of the left hand staring at the target for as long as possible. Another exaggeration move is to never let the right forearm and elbow get above the left forearm. Once you stop rolling the forearms you stop closing the face. 

 

Get that exaggerated feeling down and then try some normal swings. 

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5 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Practice an exaggerated release move where you never let the left hand roll over. Hold the back of the left hand staring at the target for as long as possible. Another exaggeration move is to never let the right forearm and elbow get above the left forearm. Once you stop rolling the forearms you stop closing the face. 

 

Get that exaggerated feeling down and then try some normal swings. 

 

This is great advice thank you. My swing is very much a "throw" and my right arm rolls over the left very aggressively. I get a lot of speed but have trouble keeping the face open to the path. 

 

Do you have any swing thoughts or drills that help reinforce keeping the right arm from rolling over the left? Can it be done without losing speed?

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1 minute ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This is great advice thank you. My swing is very much a "throw" and my right arm rolls over the left very aggressively. I get a lot of speed but have trouble keeping the face open to the path. 

 

Do you have any swing thoughts or drills that help reinforce keeping the right arm from rolling over the left? Can it be done without losing speed?

Both of those "hold on" methods I mentioned will help with that right arm rollover. 

 

As for speed...yes you can. Your downswing probably has a bit of pivot stall. Your pivot slows and your arms, wrists, and hands take over. I knew that release really well for nearly 30 years. Instead of speed coming from a hand oriented release, speed will come from your pivot and rotation. You will learn to rotate faster, and swing the club left. You won't lose any power. 

 

A couple of caveats...

 

If you're thinking of doing this as a permanent change then know that it'll take a bit of time to get right. If you go this route permanently then you may have to tweak driver and 3wood. Spin could come up as you begin to present the face open to path rather than closed.

 

If you're just trying to learn to hit the occasional cut then try away. Move ball.position up 1 or 2 balls from where you do normally. If you get your downswing sequence right then you can turn as hard as you want and keep those hands low and left as key thoughts. 

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I'd prefer to hit a fade with every shot and if the ball never moves left ever again I'd be happy...

 

FYI - I've tried to keep my hands more neutral before and hit the ball with more body rotation and immediately lost 10-15mph ball speed on driver. It's tough to be ok with that. I'm just wondering how guys like Koepka and JT can hit fades with absolutely zero hold off on their release. Their hands are rolling over incredibly fast. 

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More than likely your ground reaction forces you produce allow the early stall and throw release to be faster. 
 

If someone wants to try to switch to the hold off release their Horizontal Anterior/Posterior Force “rotation” must be very high because that’s their main power source. Dj, koepka and others bowed wrist folks have low Vertical force compared to A/P force.  

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On 4/13/2021 at 12:53 PM, mgoblue83 said:

 

You nailed it. I also have a tendency to shut down the face so the feeling of rotating hard and exiting left just screams for a huge overdraw. Any tips for keeping the face right of the path while still releasing hard?

Increase the grip pressure in your trail hand ring finger.

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For anyone who always struggles to get height on their chips, pitches or bunker shots, try that back of the right hand to left thigh feel around the green and prepare to be amazed.
 

It’s a very effective anti-handle drag move around the green (can change it to back of right hand to slightly in front of the left thigh if you’re worried about wiping it too much) 

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