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Stack and Tilt... here I come?


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On 9/13/2021 at 9:30 PM, Tugu said:

Here is my 17 year old’s SnT swing when going 70% whilst working some technical details. I don’t think there’s much need for the debates that keep taking place. The motion seems fairly orthodox for what’s taking place on tour these days. Sure there are some sequence differences, but no reverse pivots or moves that ruin spines.

 

 

Just looks like a nice easy swing

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Want to jump in here to clear up a few misconceptions about the S&T system (not method).  S&T gets enough hate from the maintstream golf community, we don't need more people shi**** on the system because they have tried it without understanding it.  I have been working with a certified instructor for about two plus years now and have never hit it better, further and scored lower.  If you haven't tried S&T by spending significant time with a certified pro, you really shouldn't be giving an opinion on it.  Before I saw one, i believed many of these misconceptions myself.  Within a few sessions you quickly find out how untrue they are.  Things start clicking

 

Previously, i had traveled the country working with several high profile instructors to learn as much as i could about the golf swing.

 

I chose S&T because it was the most comprehensive system i found.  There was a reason and an explanation for everything.  No stone left unturned, the system could provide the "how" and the "why" i had been searching for.

 

I think S&T gets a horrible wrap from the main stream golf community because it rubs people the wrong way and they had a horrible marketing campaign out of the gate.  This has made loyalists very combative and feeling like they have to prove the system every chance they get.  Well, the proof is in the pudding for me.  I've sent several players of all skill level to my certified instructor and each one of them starting hitting it much better and fairly quickly.  I am convinced this is the best system to hit the ball better fast. 

 

MISCONCEPTIONS

 

1) S&T is bad for your body and back - this is completely flase and if you feel this way, you aren't doing it right.  This swing is no worse for your back than any other golf swing.  Golf in general is not kind on the back, that is just a reality.  Once you start working with a certified instructor, your pain will be gone. 

 

2) I'm too old for a stack and tilt swing - also false.  Plenty of older guys swinging this way.  Once you understand how you should be moving, anyone can do this.  See Alex Cejka killing it on the champions tour after working with Andy and Mike

 

3) No one has success on the tour with this swing recently - false.  if you know what to look for, S&T principles are in almost every modern tour swing.  So just because they are not working with Andy and Mike doesn't mean they aren't using the principles.  Badds left S&T because he got tired of hitting predictable push draws (god knows why) and was convinced he needed to hit the ball the other way more.  Once he left S&T, his swing deteriortaed.  But he played his best with this move.  I know Charles Howell 3 had recently been working with Andy and his swing looks great to me.  A few other great examples of these principles on tour would be fleetwood and Justin Rose but you could just about pick any of these guys and see several S&T components in their swing.  

 

4) S&T is not good for longer clubs - baloney.  I am hitting my driver further and higher than ever.  Also finding more fairways.

Edited by Jlopicco23
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I love S&T and find it humorous that it gets so much bad press. If the key 3 fundamentals of S&T are wrong, I'd love to know a swing methodology that says different.

I committed to the S&T system for nearly a year, with some great success, and recently took my game to a higher level after purchasing Monte's NTC program. While the concepts of the two may appear to be different, the fundamentals are exactly the same.

 

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19 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

I love S&T and find it humorous that it gets so much bad press. If the key 3 fundamentals of S&T are wrong, I'd love to know a swing methodology that says different.

I committed to the S&T system for nearly a year, with some great success, and recently took my game to a higher level after purchasing Monte's NTC program. While the concepts of the two may appear to be different, the fundamentals are exactly the same.

 

 

Yes I agree completely, they get an unfair shake.  There could be things behind the scenes that I am unaware of.  I've spent time with Monte as well and he is fantastic.  He is a different level communicator and making hard concepts painfully simple.  You can't teach that, some guys have it and some don't.  I would agree there are overlapping principles from my own experiences and hopefully that doesn't offend anyone

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So my boy’s coach brought in a ringer yesterday. Mike Bennett, co founder of SnT, who then proceeded to work with my boys for over 2 hours. Whatever people want to say, they cannot say he is one who doesn’t give back. Teaching, videoing, adjusting, demonstrating, explaining etc for hours to two kids. Who does that?

 

Take a bow Mr Bennett, you helped inspire two kids to be the best versions of themselves in the days to come. For this, I thank you.
 

Re SnT itself, a friend and prominent Australian coach in Asia said the following to me:-

I think the more one understands it, the less you label it. Pressure can move, spine behaves specific ways etc…

 

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Edited by Tugu
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42 minutes ago, smoothie4896 said:

Who are some good online S&T instructors that you've had good experience with?

 

Matt DeJohn (IG : Mattdejohngolf). Matt got his SnT first hand over a long period of time from Mike and Andy. In my humble opinion Matt is as good as it gets amongst the young guys, SnT or not. So good that I sent my kids around the world to train full time with him at his academy; but not before we talked swing, golf and generally life for well over a year. Yes, sorry, I'm kinda that type of dad. And yes, he's that patient and good a coach/human being.

 

Steve Giuliano (IG : SGGolfing) doesnt exactly hang the SnT shingle up, but make no mistake, he is neck deep in it and incredibly knowledgeable re SnT (and all sorts of stuff like Aimpoint).

 

Andreas Kali. Powerhouse SnT. If you are in or willing to goto Denmark, he's your guy. His facilities just didnt have the infrastructure to house kids and its a short summer in Denmark. He personally said flat out that Matt DeJohn is the only guy he would send his kids to if they wanted to do the boarding/training thing in America.

 

Those 3 are my personal experiences with SnT. I mean one cant exactly go wrong if they book Mike Bennett or Andy Plummer, can they?

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20 hours ago, Jlopicco23 said:

S&T is not good for longer clubs - baloney.  I am hitting my driver further and higher than ever.  Also finding more fairways.

 

For those who still believe this idea, when I get around to it I'll put up some long clubs numbers of my 17 year old. He is not allowed to hit driver at home course range anymore. 320 carry to the patrons hitting from opposite end of range and 350 to car park. Check, check and then some. Hence no more drivers.

Edited by Tugu
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1 minute ago, smoothie4896 said:

Thanks', checked out Matts academy and doesn't look like he does online lessons.  Any others with good experience doing online lessons?

I actually think he does. I'll ask him and DM you.

 

Re online, know before hand if you want a technician for an overhaul or just want to PLAY better golf. Nothing worse than not getting what you are after.

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4 minutes ago, Tugu said:

I actually think he does. I'll ask him and DM you.

 

Re online, know before hand if you want a technician for an overhaul or just want to PLAY better golf. Nothing worse than not getting what you are after.

Great point and thanks for the offer to ask about the online.  Don't need overhaul, just want to confirm that the S&T parts I'm trying to incorporate are correct and that I'm doing them correctly.  Especially if there's drills or feels that a ST instructor could point out that could help move along some of those changes faster.

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12 minutes ago, smoothie4896 said:

Thanks', checked out Matts academy and doesn't look like he does online lessons.  Any others with good experience doing online lessons?

 

I strongly recommend considering Bob Grissett. He is extremely reasonably priced for online and does a live video chat to give you feedback, swing analysis, and then gives you video learning modulars. I think he could be perfect for exactly what you are looking for here.

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Another one to consider is Steve Sieracki - very well priced and has taken my game to the next level.  Great eye for fixing the 1-2 things preventing you from hitting it good quickly.  He is also very closely connected to Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer.  Recently he had Bennett out to his club and did a clinic with 4 students.  Needless to say, it was an amazing day.

 

Love Bob Grissett also.  Andreas Kali seems like he has a factory pumping out juniors with the best looking swings I have ever seen.  You can't go wrong there.  I have looked into his online stuff and it is pricey but would definitely go see him if i had some money to burn.

Ping G410 LST, 9.5 degrees, Tensei CK Pro Orange 70 TX
Taylormade p790 UDI 2 iron, KBS $-Taper
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1 hour ago, smoothie4896 said:

Thanks', checked out Matts academy and doesn't look like he does online lessons.  Any others with good experience doing online lessons?

I went down the rabbit hole with S&T pretty deep and for my money, I would arrange lesson with Rob Cheney. He is unfortunately in Singapore so there's that, but if I were to invest the money in actual online lesson (for Stack & Tilt that is), he's without a doubt the guy I'd see. 

http://www.robcheneygolf.com/

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41 minutes ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Another one to consider is Steve Sieracki - very well priced and has taken my game to the next level.  Great eye for fixing the 1-2 things preventing you from hitting it good quickly.  He is also very closely connected to Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer.  Recently he had Bennett out to his club and did a clinic with 4 students.  Needless to say, it was an amazing day.

 

Love Bob Grissett also.  Andreas Kali seems like he has a factory pumping out juniors with the best looking swings I have ever seen.  You can't go wrong there.  I have looked into his online stuff and it is pricey but would definitely go see him if i had some money to burn.

 

All the content I have seen from Steve is great and his videos with Eric Cogorno are all really good. Does he do his own thing for online or do you have to go through Cogorno golf? Was curious if he had his own separate thing for on-line.

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10 minutes ago, dcl5dcl5 said:

 

All the content I have seen from Steve is great and his videos with Eric Cogorno are all really good. Does he do his own thing for online or do you have to go through Cogorno golf? Was curious if he had his own separate thing for on-line.

My questions as well, how do the online lesson work with Steve?  When you try and schedule its like your scheduling an in person lesson.

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I’m seeing Steve tomorrow and will get the details from him.  I know before he started working with Cogorno he offered online lessons and I would think he still does but will confirm.  Highly recommend him.  Have worked with Eric in person for a few years as well and he is also very good

Ping G410 LST, 9.5 degrees, Tensei CK Pro Orange 70 TX
Taylormade p790 UDI 2 iron, KBS $-Taper
Mizuno MP 18 MB 4-PW, x100s
Mizuno T7 - 50, 56, 60
Artistan 0119 S

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Nice info here. I’ve only worked on drills, etc. from you tube. 

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15 hours ago, dcl5dcl5 said:

 

All the content I have seen from Steve is great and his videos with Eric Cogorno are all really good. Does he do his own thing for online or do you have to go through Cogorno golf? Was curious if he had his own separate thing for on-line.

https://stevesierackigolf.com/

 

1/2 hour online lesson is only $65

I didnt realize this. Glad this thread exists. I had looked for S&T instructors thru the S&T website and wasnt all that enthused. I'll definitely try this out

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Came across Andy Plummers f/b page the other day. They are still ragging on other instructors as a main focus, was like his every post. He was posting a lot against the Gankas "butt twist and leave hands up". I mean I'm not saying the Gankas method is all right but has to be a better way to promote yourself.

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31 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

Came across Andy Plummers f/b page the other day. They are still ragging on other instructors as a main focus, was like his every post. He was posting a lot against the Gankas "butt twist and leave hands up". I mean I'm not saying the Gankas method is all right but has to be a better way to promote yourself.

Yeah, I don't get that. It doesn't help. I've met Andy on 2 occasions, however, and I can say he's one of the nicest instructors out there. He's nothing but respectful to the students and very positive. 

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1 hour ago, Redjeep83 said:

Came across Andy Plummers f/b page the other day. They are still ragging on other instructors as a main focus, was like his every post. He was posting a lot against the Gankas "butt twist and leave hands up". I mean I'm not saying the Gankas method is all right but has to be a better way to promote yourself.

 

As much as i love the system, i couldn't agree more with this.  My biggest problem with S&T are the loyalists who go to extreme lengths to prove it by shi**** on others methods and businesses.  You don't really find the reverse nearly as much (I have followed Gankas for a while and have not heard him say many negative things about S&T, even if he believes them).  The amount of time spent dennouncing others instruction seems arrogant or petty at best.

 

The following is what makes S&T so controversial - their approach is poor.  Just have a civilized conversation about why your system is as good as it is without taking shots at others.  If the system is as good as you say (and it is), most people who try it will see that quickly.  I think the large social media following Gankas got lightning fast really took off his business and maybe some people didn't feel it was justified for the material.  Who knows.  I do know there is a way to co-exist.  Plenty of struggling golfers for everyone to help!

Edited by Jlopicco23

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5 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

Came across Andy Plummers f/b page the other day. They are still ragging on other instructors as a main focus, was like his every post. He was posting a lot against the Gankas "butt twist and leave hands up". I mean I'm not saying the Gankas method is all right but has to be a better way to promote yourself.

I follow Andy Plummer on FB as well as the ST worldwide page and there isnt anything posted about other instructors on either page. I have read in this thread several occasions of folks accusing ST of ragging on other instructors and yet I havent seen anything of the sort. Do you have any examples? 

 

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34 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

I follow Andy Plummer on FB as well as the ST worldwide page and there isnt anything posted about other instructors on either page. I have read in this thread several occasions of folks accusing ST of ragging on other instructors and yet I havent seen anything of the sort. Do you have any examples? 

 

I cant find it on Andy's FB page. But I did find some reference of Charles Howell III working with Andy? I thought he was with Grant Waite and Dana Dahlquist.

 

Links to a story?

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