Irons Between a Pitching and Gap - Set iron or wedge?

[AMLemus]

As happy as I am to be the proud new owner of a set of Mavrik irons, their stronger lofts have presented me with a bit of a gapping issue and purchasing problem. I need some advice.

 

The loft of the PW in this set is 41 degrees (per their spec sheet).

The loft on my next highest-lofted club, a Titleist Vokey SM5, is 52 degrees. I use it as my Gap Wedge.

 

My dilemma is this:

 

Should I opt for

1) The Mavrik's A-Wedge option, with a stock loft of 46 degrees (this is the same loft as the PW i previously used)

-or-

2) A wedge specific product (Vokey, Cleveland, etc.) falling in the 46-48 degree range

 

Thanks everyone! 

[Pepperturbo]

That's a big gap.  But it's a matter of choice.  There is NO rule as to matching PW to set or matching PW to wedges.  After looking at the specs of those irons, I'd go with AW, but depends on the specs of AW.

 

I like my 47' PW to match my irons and my Vokey 52' does double-duty as Gap and Sand wedge alongside 58' Vokey LW

[AMLemus]

@Pepperturbo that’s what I was leaning towards as well based on the AW specs. This is kind of the first step in renewing my entire bag, so I wanted to see how some people go about transitioning from their iron sets to their wedges. Past my 52° Vokey, I’ve got  56° and 60° Adam’s Tom Watson (!) SW and LW. So upgrades are likely on the horizon haha. 

[NJPhil]

41* PW is very strong, that is closer to a 9 iron even in other “distance” irons. My PW is 45* so I have the P790 AW at 50* as it was closer to my previous set PW.  It all comes down to personal preference though. After my set AW I play a Vokey 54* SW and 58* LW, it works for me.  If I used the AW around the green things might be different. 

[Good on long fairways]

Can I ask why is it so important, gapping ?

l my opinion that’s a fallacy based on playing a course which presents in the same manner and also weather dependant  every time you play it ? 
 

lnnovation , creative shot play and seeing what initiative etc can be achieved by not going to for eg: I am x metres / yards out = this club ...

what about 3/4 or 1/2 shot and modify grip or ball position relative to course and conditions .....

 

just asking ......

 

 

[anth]

Your PW is really your 9, even taking into account stronger lofts.  Get the 46 AW definitely - it’s still going to be a full swing club for you. I think once you move into 50 degrees and up you need to start to consider specialty wedges for different shots etc.

 

The other thing to consider is the shaft, and whether you want it to match your irons. This can help with maintaining consistent distances between wedges

[jomatty]

1 hour ago, Good on long fairways said:

Can I ask why is it so important, gapping ?

l my opinion that’s a fallacy based on playing a course which presents in the same manner and also weather dependant  every time you play it ? 
 

lnnovation , creative shot play and seeing what initiative etc can be achieved by not going to for eg: I am x metres / yards out = this club ...

what about 3/4 or 1/2 shot and modify grip or ball position relative to course and conditions .....

 

just asking ......

 

 

I’ll answer this in a straightforward manner.  Because it is easier to hit stock full shots.  You can of course take off/add distance using the methods you suggested as well as many others.  If I need a little more or a little less distance I will often try to hit a draw or a fade...but it’s not as easy as making a smooth swing. Im a 6 so I’m ok but far from great and reasonable gapping just makes it a little easier... 
to answer the question another way, why not just play golf with a driver and a seven iron?  Surely you can hit all your distances?

[jomatty]

As to what I would do, I suppose it depends on how the top end of my bag is configured.  For me I would probably look for someth8ng in the 48 degree range and then go 52 (maybe bend to 53) followed by 58.  If you have your bag configured in a way that gives you room for 5 wedges then get the set wedge and go from there.

If you don’t use a lob wedge much you could go set gw, 52 (maybe bent to 53, or 54 bent to 53), and then a 56 (maybe bent to 57).  If you choose a wedge you can open up you should be able to play all the shots you generally need to.  

[AMLemus]

14 hours ago, NJPhil said:

41* PW is very strong, that is closer to a 9 iron even in other “distance” irons. My PW is 45* so I have the P790 AW at 50* as it was closer to my previous set PW.  It all comes down to personal preference though. After my set AW I play a Vokey 54* SW and 58* LW, it works for me.  If I used the AW around the green things might be different. 

 

Oh yeah, I absolutely agree here. the 41* is definitely strong, but that's ok. The PW it's replacing was 46*, so the goal is to replicate that club with either a set AW (46*, if memory serves), or a wedge that can still cover 130yds but still be used for more versatile shots within 100yds. I don't think it would be used around the green though. That's better suited for a 50/54/58 wedge set IMO, while still maintaining full shot gapping.

[AMLemus]

8 hours ago, Good on long fairways said:

Can I ask why is it so important, gapping ?

l my opinion that’s a fallacy based on playing a course which presents in the same manner and also weather dependant  every time you play it ? 
 

lnnovation , creative shot play and seeing what initiative etc can be achieved by not going to for eg: I am x metres / yards out = this club ...

what about 3/4 or 1/2 shot and modify grip or ball position relative to course and conditions .....

 

just asking ......

 

 

I would say that gapping is massively important, for all players. Knowing what goes what distance in ideal conditions is the foundation upon which one can innovate and create, as you put it. And to be honest, most players don't want to have to default to fractional shots either b/c they don't want to, don't have the time to practice, etc. I'd much rather shoot a boring 80 with mostly full shots than run unnecessary risk and strokes in the name of "innovation and creation" for its own sake. 

[AMLemus]

8 hours ago, anth said:

Your PW is really your 9, even taking into account stronger lofts.  Get the 46 AW definitely - it’s still going to be a full swing club for you. I think once you move into 50 degrees and up you need to start to consider specialty wedges for different shots etc.

 

The other thing to consider is the shaft, and whether you want it to match your irons. This can help with maintaining consistent distances between wedges

This is likely going to be the choice for me. Shot for shot, it'll replace a previous iron set club so for continuity's sake, its the right call. Just going to get the same lie angle and shaft specs.

[Good on long fairways]

Course conditions/ weather / physical condition and form ( how one strikes the ball etc ) all impacts distance and game  as well as other factors ... if gapping is so important and ideal conditions ( ie ...potentially 

All courses would be identical , all hole distances same simply similar to other sports with defined playing field identical. Or perhaps playing indoors simulation also advantages gapping 

 

By you logic we would never try anything different by what we have as the full shot ?  
 

Maybe it’s also personality or attitude ....as the saying goes

if we always do what we always did we always get what’s wrong always got

 

Hope  you hit them well 🙂🙂

[Pepperturbo]

12 hours ago, jomatty said:

I’ll answer this in a straightforward manner.  Because it is easier to hit stock full shots.  You can of course take off/add distance using the methods you suggested as well as many others.  If I need a little more or a little less distance I will often try to hit a draw or a fade...but it’s not as easy as making a smooth swing. Im a 6 so I’m ok but far from great and reasonable gapping just makes it a little easier... 
to answer the question another way, why not just play golf with a driver and a seven iron?  Surely you can hit all your distances?

Not intending to argue, but share a 4 index view - that line is kind of a fallacy...

 

Easy in theory, but average Joe golfer does NOT hit each of his clubs consistently a measurable distance, and he seldom knows his cover yardages.  I won't get into his swing and SS are not consistent.  He thinks his 6i yardage is X, but he's not really sure, not including run out, so it could be 150 or 170.  That means he's left with all sorts of yardages that are not connected to full shot clubs.  In other words, each of us must have 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 shots with each club.

 

As for the Driver and 7i remark, I've played 6000+ yds with 6i, PW, SW & LW no putter, and scored in the 80s.  That's because I could hit 6i much further or shorter than a stock yardage, same with wedges.

 

 

[jomatty]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Not intending to argue, but share a 4 index view - that line is kind of a fallacy...

 

Easy in theory, but average Joe golfer does NOT hit each of his clubs consistently a measurable distance, and he seldom knows his cover yardages.  I won't get into his swing and SS are not consistent.  He thinks his 6i yardage is X, but he's not really sure, not including run out, so it could be 150 or 170.  That means he's left with all sorts of yardages that are not connected to full shot clubs.  In other words, each of us must have 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 shots with each club.

 

As for the Driver and 7i remark, I've played 6000+ yds with 6i, PW, SW & LW no putter, and scored in the 80s.  That's because I could hit 6i much further or shorter than a stock yardage, same with wedges.

 

 

I suppose we just disagree on that.  While it certainly is true that most golfers do not know the exact yardages they hit full shots, I believe they have even less an idea how far they hit partial shots, and has a much harder time gauging partial shot distances than full shots.

[jomatty]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Not intending to argue, but share a 4 index view - that line is kind of a fallacy...

 

Easy in theory, but average Joe golfer does NOT hit each of his clubs consistently a measurable distance, and he seldom knows his cover yardages.  I won't get into his swing and SS are not consistent.  He thinks his 6i yardage is X, but he's not really sure, not including run out, so it could be 150 or 170.  That means he's left with all sorts of yardages that are not connected to full shot clubs.  In other words, each of us must have 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 shots with each club.

 

As for the Driver and 7i remark, I've played 6000+ yds with 6i, PW, SW & LW no putter, and scored in the 80s.  That's because I could hit 6i much further or shorter than a stock yardage, same with wedges.

 

 

Surely your not arguing that you play as well with a half set as a full set.  There is no doubt that a halfway competent golfer can score without all of their clubs.  It is equally as certain that they will score better with a full bag.

[AMLemus]

6 hours ago, Good on long fairways said:

Course conditions/ weather / physical condition and form ( how one strikes the ball etc ) all impacts distance and game  as well as other factors ... if gapping is so important and ideal conditions ( ie ...potentially 

All courses would be identical , all hole distances same simply similar to other sports with defined playing field identical. Or perhaps playing indoors simulation also advantages gapping 

 

By you logic we would never try anything different by what we have as the full shot ?  
 

Maybe it’s also personality or attitude ....as the saying goes

if we always do what we always did we always get what’s wrong always got

 

Hope  you hit them well 🙂🙂

If you don’t know what your standard shot is, how will you how varying conditions will affect it and how to adapt to them?

[Stuart_G]

15 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Easy in theory, but average Joe golfer does NOT hit each of his clubs consistently a measurable distance, and he seldom knows his cover yardages.  I won't get into his swing and SS are not consistent.  He thinks his 6i yardage is X, but he's not really sure, not including run out, so it could be 150 or 170.  That means he's left with all sorts of yardages that are not connected to full shot clubs.  In other words, each of us must have 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 shots with each club.

 

Sorry but I think your logic is a bit flawed (or maybe I'm missing your point).   If they don't know or understand their yardages or are even just inconsistent with the full swing,  the partial shots aren't going to improve anything or be any more consistent.   The judgement with them will be just as bad and the execution will be no better and more likely even worse than with the full swing.  So adding those partial shots to the "bag" wont really improve anything for those types of golfers.  Especially in the context of such a large gap as the OP is asking about.   Now I agree that some partial shots can be important (although I might argue that learning to control trajectory is more important than learning to control distance with the swing for the mid cappers - but we can save that for another time).   But the full swing is the foundation on which they need to be built.   So if the foundation is weak, that's where the effort should be made for the greatest improvement.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[ChipNRun]

On 4/14/2021 at 1:39 AM, Good on long fairways said:

lnnovation , creative shot play and seeing what initiative etc can be achieved by not going to for eg: I am x metres / yards out = this club ...

what about 3/4 or 1/2 shot and modify grip or ball position relative to course and conditions .....

 

If you are a feel golfer this can work. Played with an assistant pro who said he was "all feel" inside 80 yards. And, he could pull it off.

 

For me, it just doesn't work because my feel varies day-to-day. The exception is greenside. Inside 20 yards, I use a LW cut shot or a 7i chip and run, all on feel. Outside that, I use modified Pelz* matrix: half, 3/4 and full swing.  To adjust yardage I vary the backswing length and club choice for ~ 20 to 100 yards.

 

As per @Stuart_G concern, I usually hit partial wedges at the start of my warm-up for practice or play. At times range is fairly empty, I will hit some SuperHots (ball I play) sideways down hitting tee to check distances. If I have a weak point, it's the distance from 3/4 swing on SW. 

 

Players who try to gauge partial-wedge swing distances with range balls are wasting their time - too much flight variance ball to ball even if you hit solid shot.

________________________________

* (Classic Pelz throws in a 90% swing, but his 90% position is the top of my rather compact backswing swing). 

[Pepperturbo]

Yep, over the top of your head.  I will NOT argue excuses.  Back in the 50s and 60s when a slew of wedges didn't exist in Tour player bags (a relative played on the PGA Tour), they made 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full shots with all the clubs in their bag.  Today, OEM companies have brainwashed people into thinking they need a slew of wedges and strong lofts to play good golf and can't improve without more clubs.  Next up, OEM's will influence the weak to promote going to 20 clubs in the bag, difference being more wedges and hybrids, cause you all need them to improve that index average that hasn't gone down over the years, despite adding up to five wedges, hybrid replacement irons and strong lofted irons to the bag.

 

It's boring listening to people talk about golf as if everything evolves around static yardages and there must be a matching club cause you all can't make 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 shots, only full-shots.  What's static here is the mind.  I will leave you to "you can't do it." 

[ChipNRun]

33 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Back in the 50s and 60s when a slew of wedges didn't exist in Tour player bags (a relative played on the PGA Tour), they made 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full shots with all the clubs in their bag. 

 

Blast from the past... Back around 1980, I lived in Enid, OK. Tim Mendenhall was pro at the local Meadowlake public course. For his students that listened, he had us develop a quarter-swing and half-swing for all our clubs, 7i through SW. (Before GW and LW arrived). This served me well for short game.

 

Unfortunately, I moved to a new town and couldn't play much golf for two years. When golf returned I never quite recovered the quarter + half swing solution for the short end of the bag.  

[GLF4EVR]

Guess I am coming to Pepperturbo's defense.  I can see exactly what he was talking about in the 1st post.  When I first was trying to learn the game was in the late 60's & early 70's.  All that existed was a pitching wedge &  sand wedge.  So I was taught the clock face method on yardage with the wedges, then applying it to the other clubs.

 

Good players that are 10-20 years younger than me look at me like I am a lunatic when trying to explain this method to them (they might not be far off.....but I have to care first😁).  The majority of the average golfers that I see basically have a hazy concept of what their yardages are.  Hopefully they are within 20 yards of what reality actually is.  With them trying to make 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 swings, usually results in more damage than if they tried a full swing.   The partial swing usually results in them getting mad & not wanting to try it again.  So they look for a quick solution to the problem instead of trying to work on the actual mechanics involved in the shot.  Unfortunately, if you try to walk them thru the mechanics it is basically like the teach the pig to sign scenario.

 

The rewarding thing is the occasional one that does actually listen & try to work on it.  Right now have an old high school buddy that retired last year & now lives here.  After watching me several times last season, he had me start to work with him on it.  At the end of the season it started to pay.  He got a birdie on a hole that normally was an easy bogey for him.  It was all due to a well placed partial wedge.  Needless to say, I think I was even happier than he was.  Did not even approach the clock method.  Just the mechanics on the 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 swings.  I made a 58 wedge for him earlier in the season. 

[Pepperturbo]

34 minutes ago, GLF4EVR said:

Guess I am coming to Pepperturbo's defense.  I can see exactly what he was talking about in the 1st post.  When I first was trying to learn the game was in the late 60's & early 70's.  All that existed was a pitching wedge &  sand wedge.  So I was taught the clock face method on yardage with the wedges, then applying it to the other clubs.

 

Good players that are 10-20 years younger than me look at me like I am a lunatic when trying to explain this method to them (they might not be far off.....but I have to care first😁).  The majority of the average golfers that I see basically have a hazy concept of what their yardages are.  Hopefully they are within 20 yards of what reality actually is.  With them trying to make 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 swings, usually results in more damage than if they tried a full swing.   The partial swing usually results in them getting mad & not wanting to try it again.  So they look for a quick solution to the problem instead of trying to work on the actual mechanics involved in the shot.  Unfortunately, if you try to walk them thru the mechanics it is basically like the teach the pig to sign scenario.

 

The rewarding thing is the occasional one that does actually listen & try to work on it.  Right now have an old high school buddy that retired last year & now lives here.  After watching me several times last season, he had me start to work with him on it.  At the end of the season it started to pay.  He got a birdie on a hole that normally was an easy bogey for him.  It was all due to a well placed partial wedge.  Needless to say, I think I was even happier than he was.  Did not even approach the clock method.  Just the mechanics on the 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 swings.  I made a 58 wedge for him earlier in the season. 

I am a diehard warrior as well as golfer; but thank you for having my 6 and sharing your thoughts.  I don't care how anyone chooses to play golf, until they talk about static this or that as if that's the only conceivable way to play golf.  I have never used the words "I can't."

 

I, too, have had some younger good golfers look at me kinda weird.  Old guys are not suppose use a 2 iron or play blades.  Not sure where they got that line of thinking from.  Thankfully, their thoughts change when they see me play golf.  The ole man shows them a thing or two. = I love this game.

 

Thankfully my uncle had me shagging balls at the range (ball pickup was done manually back then) when I was a rugrat.  I saw how he focused and practiced, I just had no interest then.  All I wanted to do was play hockey and football which I did.  I didn't take up golf till I was 40yrs old, but having seen how he practiced and listening to his counsel, I not only learned how to structure regimented practice sessions, but practice using each club for more than it's full carry yardage.  I can hit my 2i up to 240yds, but also hit it 110yds; 3i is 190-200yds, but also 100yds, 47' PW 115yds but also 84yds, SW 105yds, but also 82yds and stick.  My point is not about me as much as showing much more is possible, all that is required is vision.

 

I understand how you felt when your friend made that birdie! 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[dlygrisse]

If it's mostly for full swings go with the set A wedge.  If it will be used for the short game a lot go with a traditional style wedge.  That's my rule of thumb anyway.  

[AMLemus]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Yep, over the top of your head.  I will NOT argue excuses.  Back in the 50s and 60s when a slew of wedges didn't exist in Tour player bags (a relative played on the PGA Tour), they made 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full shots with all the clubs in their bag.  Today, OEM companies have brainwashed people into thinking they need a slew of wedges and strong lofts to play good golf and can't improve without more clubs.  Next up, OEM's will influence the weak to promote going to 20 clubs in the bag, difference being more wedges and hybrids, cause you all need them to improve that index average that hasn't gone down over the years, despite adding up to five wedges, hybrid replacement irons and strong lofted irons to the bag.

 

It's boring listening to people talk about golf as if everything evolves around static yardages and there must be a matching club cause you all can't make 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 shots, only full-shots.  What's static here is the mind.  I will leave you to "you can't do it." 

I definitely agree with you that the partial shots and knowing how/when to hit them are a big part of the game. Wedges are also a great tool to have, but are possibly relied upon too much in lieu of more “feel” shots with other clubs. Personally I’m kicking around the idea of junking my 60° because I’ll have occasion to use it maybe twice a round, and even then I can likely make a better shot with a partial sand wedge. novelty isn’t worth having in the bag if it isn’t actually useful. 
 

This game is about balance in my opinion and is driven by ones goals with the game. If someone wants to enjoy the game and does so with nothing but stock shots and a 10 HC, great! There’s a market for that. If someone wants to entertain the added challenge of partial shots, shaped shots, etc., the game allows for it and a lot of courses reward that, IMO.

 

For my particular issue in my first post, I’d like to have a ball that goes 115-125yd on a full swing, and the AW 46° accomplishes that so I don’t have to throttle back on my PW on approach shots quite as often. 
 

Separate point re: golfers from the 50-60s vs now: they were artists that had to get the most of their equipment and had to know all the tricks to do so. More having to to shape their game to accommodate their equipment. Modern golf is more often than not athletes-turned-golfers that can customize their equipment to suit their strengths. 

 

[AMLemus]

53 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

If it's mostly for full swings go with the set A wedge.  If it will be used for the short game a lot go with a traditional style wedge.  That's my rule of thumb anyway.  

That’s what I ended up going with. While I’m sure the occasion will come that I’ll need to do partial swings with it, it’ll perfectly accommodate the soft spot between my full PW length (150y) and GW length (110y). 

[2bGood]

Do you ever type a long reply all about your game, then stop and realise - "no one cares" and delete it? 

[jomatty]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry but I think your logic is a bit flawed (or maybe I'm missing your point).   If they don't know or understand their yardages or are even just inconsistent with the full swing,  the partial shots aren't going to improve anything or be any more consistent.   The judgement with them will be just as bad and the execution will be no better and more likely even worse than with the full swing.  So adding those partial shots to the "bag" wont really improve anything for those types of golfers.  Especially in the context of such a large gap as the OP is asking about.   Now I agree that some partial shots can be important (although I might argue that learning to control trajectory is more important than learning to control distance with the swing for the mid cappers - but we can save that for another time).   But the full swing is the foundation on which they need to be built.   So if the foundation is weak, that's where the effort should be made for the greatest improvement.

That’s a more succinct and articulate way of saying what I was trying to say...

[AMLemus]

51 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Do you ever type a long reply all about your game, then stop and realise - "no one cares" and delete it? 

All. The. Damn. Time. 

[CROUSE99]

In Rick Reilly’s book “Who’s Your Caddie” he wrote about caddying for a high stakes gambler. In the gambler’s normal game the only rule was you couldn’t touch your ball for any reason. You could carry as many clubs as you wished. He carried a different wedge for every 5 yards under 100 yards. 
 

I do think it is silly to argue about the way someone chooses to play. If you like being able to hit a 7 iron from 80 yards to 180 yards, more power to you. If you like to have reliable gaps between your clubs, more power to you. 
 

The reality is everyone is going to have partial shots to play that are shorter than the highest lofted club in their bag. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by CROUSE99

[Stevens24]

I have a 44 degree PW and went with the 49 degree that matches the set as it will mostly be a full shot club. I then have a 54 & 58 specialty wedge