Greens reading books...

[LifeStory]

Green reading is a skill.

If you don't possess this skill, shouldn't the answer be to practice more and hone said skill? Is putting really such a formidable task that a crutch is required in the form of a little cheatsheet that gives you the layout of the green down to device-measured detail???
seems silly and almost pathetic when you take a closer look at it.

 

get rid of them.

Edited April 19, 2021 by LifeStory

[MPAndreassi]

9 hours ago, stingerfade said:

Cheating

So are you also against rangefinders and gps devices? 

[stingerfade]

28 minutes ago, MPAndreassi said:

So are you also against rangefinders and gps devices? 

No. At least the ones with no slope. It’s not even close to the same thing. There are markers on the course and on sprinkler heads it’s not a skill to get a yardage. It’s to speed up the game. Green reading is a skill and part of the challenge of feeling/seeing the putt. The books give you the reads, that takes away the advantage of people that have worked on the skill of reading greens. The green reading books seem to slow the game down as well. 

[MPAndreassi]

22 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

No. At least the ones with no slope. It’s not even close to the same thing. There are markers on the course and on sprinkler heads it’s not a skill to get a yardage. It’s to speed up the game. Green reading is a skill and part of the challenge of feeling/seeing the putt. The books give you the reads, that takes away the advantage of people that have worked on the skill of reading greens. The green reading books seem to slow the game down as well. 

I would disagree that getting a yardage is not a skill. Not all courses have sprinklers marked, and pacing off 25 yards +/- with some kind of accuracy is certainly a skill. Shots inside 100 yards aren’t marked, unless sprinkler are, feeling that yardage would be a skill. Just because the books show general slope doesn’t tell you anything about pace or green speed and in turn how that effects the break. In terms of pace of play, that’s player dependent. 

[GatorNate11]

30 minutes ago, MPAndreassi said:

I would disagree that getting a yardage is not a skill. Not all courses have sprinklers marked, and pacing off 25 yards +/- with some kind of accuracy is certainly a skill. Shots inside 100 yards aren’t marked, unless sprinkler are, feeling that yardage would be a skill. Just because the books show general slope doesn’t tell you anything about pace or green speed and in turn how that effects the break. In terms of pace of play, that’s player dependent. 

If some doofus is in front of me pacing off, to the yard, his approach shot he's going to blade over the back of the green I'm sending one right at his spine. If he shoots the pin with the rangefinder and blades it over the back, he's me. 

[stingerfade]

17 hours ago, MPAndreassi said:

I would disagree that getting a yardage is not a skill. Not all courses have sprinklers marked, and pacing off 25 yards +/- with some kind of accuracy is certainly a skill. Shots inside 100 yards aren’t marked, unless sprinkler are, feeling that yardage would be a skill. Just because the books show general slope doesn’t tell you anything about pace or green speed and in turn how that effects the break. In terms of pace of play, that’s player dependent. 

Set up a rope that’s ten yards long. Pace that at a normal walking pace. That’s how many steps 10 yards are for you. Not a skill unless basic math is included. Every course has 100/150/200 marked 

[MPAndreassi]

2 hours ago, stingerfade said:

Set up a rope that’s ten yards long. Pace that at a normal walking pace. That’s how many steps 10 yards are for you. Not a skill unless basic math is included. Every course has 100/150/200 marked 

Knowing the degree of slope on a green is no different than knowing a yardage to the flag if you don’t have the skill to interpret the data into a result. 5 degrees of slope on a green that runs at an 8 is different than a green that runs at 12. The skill involved in any of the measurements is being able to properly apply them and use them to make yourself score better. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by MPAndreassi

[Soloman1]

I know this may be hard to believe, but in ancient days, we could look at a marker beside or on a fairway and estimate the yardage of our ball pretty accurately without pacing anything. Shocking and unbelievable, I know.

 

We also could go somewhere by looking at paper maps. Who knew?

[wildcatden]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

I know this may be hard to believe, but in ancient days, we could look at a marker beside or on a fairway and estimate the yardage of our ball pretty accurately without pacing anything. Shocking and unbelievable, I know.

 

We also could go somewhere by looking at paper maps. Who knew?

 

And they just played this little tournament down in Georgia where those detailed topology maps of the green aren't allowed. Low and behold, it was a successful tournament.

[Argonne69]

15 hours ago, stingerfade said:

Set up a rope that’s ten yards long. Pace that at a normal walking pace. That’s how many steps 10 yards are for you. Not a skill unless basic math is included. Every course has 100/150/200 marked 

 

No, not every course has 100/150/200 marked. I've played dozens of courses that don't have 100/150/200 stakes/markers. Sterling Grove in Arizona just opened, and the course doesn't even have yardage marked on the sprinkler heads. 

 

If I recall correctly, Bandon Dunes doesn't have yardages on the sprinkler heads.

 

[stingerfade]

17 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

No, not every course has 100/150/200 marked. I've played dozens of courses that don't have 100/150/200 stakes/markers. Sterling Grove in Arizona just opened, and the course doesn't even have yardage marked on the sprinkler heads. 

 

If I recall correctly, Bandon Dunes doesn't have yardages on the sprinkler heads.

 

The majority do. We all know that I’m sorry but walking off yardages is not a skill 

[stingerfade]

14 hours ago, MPAndreassi said:

Knowing the degree of slope on a green is no different than knowing a yardage to the flag if you don’t have the skill to interpret the data into a result. 5 degrees of slope on a green that runs at an 8 is different than a green that runs at 12. The skill involved in any of the measurements is being able to properly apply them and use them to make yourself score better. 

Not the same at all. It’s crazy that people can’t see the difference between reading a green, interpreting the line and speed and walking and counting. It’s not even close 

Edited April 20, 2021 by stingerfade

[smashdn]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:08 PM, 3whacker said:

Heck one of these days we might even see guys brining launch monitors on the course with them

 

I took one of those National Golf Foundation surveys the other day that was about club fitting during a round using a trackman type device.

 

I'd say it is coming if not already here somewhere.

[smashdn]

On 4/17/2021 at 8:08 AM, cxx said:

Banning the books would favor the older players and slow down play on the greens.

RE your first point - So.

RE your first point - How so?

RE your second point - Why? 

[smashdn]

On 4/18/2021 at 10:55 PM, GatorNate11 said:

If some doofus is in front of me pacing off, to the yard, his approach shot he's going to blade over the back of the green I'm sending one right at his spine. If he shoots the pin with the rangefinder and blades it over the back, he's me. 

 

I saw you at Rolling Hills last year on #13.  I was on #5 tee box.  You rolled through then green then shot the distance with a range finder.  I always wondered what kind of knucklehead needs an exact yardage with less than 35 yards to the hole.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

 

No, not every course has 100/150/200 marked. I've played dozens of courses that don't have 100/150/200 stakes/markers. Sterling Grove in Arizona just opened, and the course doesn't even have yardage marked on the sprinkler heads. 

 

If I recall correctly, Bandon Dunes doesn't have yardages on the sprinkler heads.

 

 

All the little plates have broken off 90% of the sprinkler heads around here.  That is the sprinkler heads that are still working and not sodded over.  Fairways don't get irrigated much when you live in some kind of temperate rain forest the last couple of years.

[Hawkeye77]

13 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

I know this may be hard to believe, but in ancient days, we could look at a marker beside or on a fairway and estimate the yardage of our ball pretty accurately without pacing anything. Shocking and unbelievable, I know.

 

We also could go somewhere by looking at paper maps. Who knew?

Won't travel anywhere significant without some sort of real road atlas or map for our vehicle, even with navigation.  Just studying a map a little bit is pretty darn helpful.  Kids these days . . . . .

Edited April 20, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[RedWings1]

On 4/13/2021 at 10:24 PM, m d g said:

I would be good with banning them, but would make an exception for those who make their own WITHOUT the use of technology.

 

If a pro and his caddy want to go out and pace things off and 'feel' the slopes, that seems like a 'natural' thing to do.

I agree with this exactly, unfortunately they already have these for every course on the tour so all they'd have to do is copy the ones already made into their own notes.

So, I say get rid of them period or a rule saying no heat maps and contour degress. Limit them to hand drawn arrows only.
 

[disco111]

Ask this question...........Since every player has these infamous greens books, then why do they take sooooooo much time putting?....... 

[m d g]

20 minutes ago, RedWings1 said:

I agree with this exactly, unfortunately they already have these for every course on the tour so all they'd have to do is copy the ones already made into their own notes.

 

Good point...

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, stingerfade said:

... I’m sorry but walking off yardages is not a skill 

 

 

It is now. Walking and counting? Oh my. People don't have the attention span now to count more than six or seven steps.

People who can walk and count are considered savants now.

 

 

 

(That sounded like something my father would have said.)

[Argonne69]

7 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

 

It is now. Walking and counting? Oh my. People don't have the attention span now to count more than six or seven steps.

People who can walk and count are considered savants now.

 

(That sounded like something my father would have said.)

 

What if they can chew gum at the same time? 

 

[Soloman1]

1 minute ago, Argonne69 said:

 

What if they can chew gum at the same time? 

 

 

Nobel prize material?

[stingerfade]

4 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Nobel prize material?

Maybe the Noble 

[Jc0]

15 hours ago, wildcatden said:

 

And they just played this little tournament down in Georgia where those detailed topology maps of the green aren't allowed. Low and behold, it was a successful tournament.

 

They are allowed. Augusta just hasn't allowed their greens to be scanned. Pretty good article on it. Polter's book is pretty detailed. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2021-collin-morikawa-augusta-national-yardage-book

[wildcatden]

16 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

They are allowed. Augusta just hasn't allowed their greens to be scanned. Pretty good article on it. Polter's book is pretty detailed. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2021-collin-morikawa-augusta-national-yardage-book

 You are comparing this:

 

To what Augusta allows (note: player could write more notes than this, but they aren't going to get the detail written down like the pic above unless they sneak on the course overnight with a survey crew):

 

 

 

Get rid of the detailed topography maps.

 

[GatorNate11]

On 4/20/2021 at 9:48 AM, smashdn said:

 

I saw you at Rolling Hills last year on #13.  I was on #5 tee box.  You rolled through then green then shot the distance with a range finder.  I always wondered what kind of knucklehead needs an exact yardage with less than 35 yards to the hole.

Wait wait wait....somebody shot the pin from just off the back of the green? Lmao

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, GatorNate11 said:

Wait wait wait....somebody shot the pin from just off the back of the green? Lmao

 

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.  The hole they were playing is a downhill par 5.  The Tee box for another par 5 on the front 9 is behind that green about 50 yards.  The guys shot landed hard on the green and bounced through.  He shot it with a rangefinder and confidently told his partner it was 35 yards.  

 

I guess he pulled his 35 yard club.  I hope he wasn't in between clubs.

[Scotty1140]

11 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.  The hole they were playing is a downhill par 5.  The Tee box for another par 5 on the front 9 is behind that green about 50 yards.  The guys shot landed hard on the green and bounced through.  He shot it with a rangefinder and confidently told his partner it was 35 yards.  

 

I guess he pulled his 35 yard club.  I hope he wasn't in between clubs.

 

Of course he shot it. Cleary had this gem in the bag. Full cut, yank it back 5yds. Tap it in.

 

 

[Forrest Sanchez]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:57 AM, MPAndreassi said:

Here’s an example from mine. 17th from my home course. 
 

 

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Edited June 25, 2021 by Forrest Sanchez