Driver length debate

[Alan Pllu]

I'm finally settled on driver head and shaft combination that is working as good as anything I have used for about the last 10 years however, you know what it's like in always wanting more!

 

I have bought a spare shaft that I intend to use to experiment with shaft length as its something I have never tested is different length of shaft. I have also ordered a weight kit for it so I can try to keep swingweight feel in the right range for me. 

 

I have extended the shaft to make the club play 48 inches with the intention of seeing how it goes and gradually get shorter till I get to a length that works best and if it ends up shorter than standard then so be it. 

 

My argument with myself is from a possibly oversimplified view of at 48 inches if the head speed is higher, even if strike suffers a little would the reduced efficiency be offset by the higher input? So output would then on average be comparable with a better strike with a lower swing speed with a shorter shaft, but with the potential of more output when struck well? 

 

Then I am wondering from a physics possibly overcomplicated view if I need to make the head lighter on the longer shaft will this be less energy transfer than a heavier head on a shorter shaft at a slower speed? 

 

I have played 2 rounds with the driver at 48 inches but don't have the weight kit yet to lighten the head so it feels really heavy and temperature has been really cold so ball isn't travelling as far so I can't really tell if I have gained or lost any distance. Dispersion hasn't suffered surprisingly and there were a couple of drives I really caught that went miles. 

 

I have read the driver fitting thread Howard wrote up and intended on following that but I am intrigued by the potential of the 48 inch driver. 

 

Anyone offer some insight? 

[EDT501]

I just went through this exact process you are describing. I had been playing my driver at 44.5" for a decade and have a reasonably sound swing that allows me to find the center fo the club face almost all of the time. My misses are primarily due to face angle rather than impact location. 

 

I took the exact setup I was using and bought a raw uncut version of the same shaft and put it into play (just short of 48") with the intent of working my way towards a shorter length to see what I could control. I don't have a physics model to answer some of your questions about head-weight, energy transfer, etc. but I can share my observations gathered both on the course and from practice sessions on a monitor over several months.

• Once you get used to the longer shaft, you will see an increase in club-head speed. I saw a nearly 10mph bump going from 44.5 to 48 with the same smooth tempo. Resist the urge to go hulk with your new boom-stick, let that extra length do the work for you.
• Strike location is more important than club head speed when determining proper launch conditions and carry distance. I didn't start spraying the ball by any means, but my strike pattern was definitively larger than it was at 44.5. So while my club head speed was up pretty significantly, my average distance was only up by a few yards. My best drives were noticeably longer.
• For me at least, launch went up by about 2 degrees and spin was also a touch higher on average. 
• Because of the nature of my misses (face angle) my bad shots were worse simply because they had more speed to go further down range off-line.
• I found my best results at a higher than expected swing weight. You will definitely need to play around with it for awhile to get the feel right. I got lackluster results after removing a ton of head-weight to get back down to normal range. Try anything and everything and give yourself some swings to get used to it.

I ended up settling on 46". While on the range the results of the 48" driver were extremely promising, I couldn't get it to work on the course. The timing of a 48" driver is sooooooo different than even a fairway wood and especially the irons that I just couldn't get a consistent swing going. After a few dozen rounds the stats bore out that I would either drive the ball well or have a good ball striking day, never both. I think this is the reason you don't see many touring pros going to 48" even though many are pushing 46" now. On the range you can get into a groove, on the course you are alternating clubs. At 46" I get a bit of extra speed, didn't see much dispersion loss, and it still feels like I am swinging a golf club that fits with my set.

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-GOLF-PUTTER-COUNTERWEIGHT-COUNTER-WEIGHT-20g-40g-60g-80g-100g-FOR-BUTT-END/281778244024?hash=item419b4ac9b8:g:ukoAAOSwAH1Zhmhu

 

[Myherobobhope]

Honestly, just try stuff and see what happens. 
 

I know Accra is starting to make shafts to play longer... most other stuff is designed to be trimmed...

 

I like the added swing weight from a longer shaft... I’ve been playing a 46 inch driver with most of my problems being my swing and not the club.

[BREWMASTER95060]

https://store.billybobsgolf.com/product/counter-balance-butt-weights/

Edited April 15, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[jomatty]

1 hour ago, EDT501 said:

I just went through this exact process you are describing. I had been playing my driver at 44.5" for a decade and have a reasonably sound swing that allows me to find the center fo the club face almost all of the time. My misses are primarily due to face angle rather than impact location. 

 

I took the exact setup I was using and bought a raw uncut version of the same shaft and put it into play (just short of 48") with the intent of working my way towards a shorter length to see what I could control. I don't have a physics model to answer some of your questions about head-weight, energy transfer, etc. but I can share my observations gathered both on the course and from practice sessions on a monitor over several months.

• Once you get used to the longer shaft, you will see an increase in club-head speed. I saw a nearly 10mph bump going from 44.5 to 48 with the same smooth tempo. Resist the urge to go hulk with your new boom-stick, let that extra length do the work for you.
• Strike location is more important than club head speed when determining proper launch conditions and carry distance. I didn't start spraying the ball by any means, but my strike pattern was definitively larger than it was at 44.5. So while my club head speed was up pretty significantly, my average distance was only up by a few yards. My best drives were noticeably longer.
• For me at least, launch went up by about 2 degrees and spin was also a touch higher on average. 
• Because of the nature of my misses (face angle) my bad shots were worse simply because they had more speed to go further down range off-line.
• I found my best results at a higher than expected swing weight. You will definitely need to play around with it for awhile to get the feel right. I got lackluster results after removing a ton of head-weight to get back down to normal range. Try anything and everything and give yourself some swings to get used to it.

I ended up settling on 46". While on the range the results of the 48" driver were extremely promising, I couldn't get it to work on the course. The timing of a 48" driver is sooooooo different than even a fairway wood and especially the irons that I just couldn't get a consistent swing going. After a few dozen rounds the stats bore out that I would either drive the ball well or have a good ball striking day, never both. I think this is the reason you don't see many touring pros going to 48" even though many are pushing 46" now. On the range you can get into a groove, on the course you are alternating clubs. At 46" I get a bit of extra speed, didn't see much dispersion loss, and it still feels like I am swinging a golf club that fits with my set.

 

Exactly what I found.  I also ended up at 46.  When 8 first started hitting the 48 I was excited, and there is no doubt that the best shots were considerably longer.  But the average shot wasn’t much different and the bad ones were off the course...at 46 I pick up some distance without losing control.

[BREWMASTER95060]

LONG DRIVERS

[Alan Pllu]

9 hours ago, EDT501 said:

I just went through this exact process you are describing. I had been playing my driver at 44.5" for a decade and have a reasonably sound swing that allows me to find the center fo the club face almost all of the time. My misses are primarily due to face angle rather than impact location. 

 

I took the exact setup I was using and bought a raw uncut version of the same shaft and put it into play (just short of 48") with the intent of working my way towards a shorter length to see what I could control. I don't have a physics model to answer some of your questions about head-weight, energy transfer, etc. but I can share my observations gathered both on the course and from practice sessions on a monitor over several months.

• Once you get used to the longer shaft, you will see an increase in club-head speed. I saw a nearly 10mph bump going from 44.5 to 48 with the same smooth tempo. Resist the urge to go hulk with your new boom-stick, let that extra length do the work for you.
• Strike location is more important than club head speed when determining proper launch conditions and carry distance. I didn't start spraying the ball by any means, but my strike pattern was definitively larger than it was at 44.5. So while my club head speed was up pretty significantly, my average distance was only up by a few yards. My best drives were noticeably longer.
• For me at least, launch went up by about 2 degrees and spin was also a touch higher on average. 
• Because of the nature of my misses (face angle) my bad shots were worse simply because they had more speed to go further down range off-line.
• I found my best results at a higher than expected swing weight. You will definitely need to play around with it for awhile to get the feel right. I got lackluster results after removing a ton of head-weight to get back down to normal range. Try anything and everything and give yourself some swings to get used to it.

I ended up settling on 46". While on the range the results of the 48" driver were extremely promising, I couldn't get it to work on the course. The timing of a 48" driver is sooooooo different than even a fairway wood and especially the irons that I just couldn't get a consistent swing going. After a few dozen rounds the stats bore out that I would either drive the ball well or have a good ball striking day, never both. I think this is the reason you don't see many touring pros going to 48" even though many are pushing 46" now. On the range you can get into a groove, on the course you are alternating clubs. At 46" I get a bit of extra speed, didn't see much dispersion loss, and it still feels like I am swinging a golf club that fits with my set.

 

That's brilliant information, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to post. 

 

The comment about not trying to go hulk on the longer shaft is something I have found over the 2 rounds I have played, I am pretty smooth with everything but after I really connect with it and hit a big one on 6th and 7th last round I fell into the trap of going for it at 9th which I struck low on the face and lost some distance because it spun up so much. 

 

With the swingweight my old driver was a ping g400lst that I had bought heavier weights for and found my best results from it at around D7 which is why I started to think about going longer with my ts3 since I seem to do OK at heavier swingweight. I'm up in E something with it just now which is too heavy and why I have the weights coming to try get me down a little. I have tried putting some lead tape under the grip to counterbalance it to an extent but it just ended up very heavy and feels more like thors hammer than a driver! 

 

Thanks for the input I'll update when I try it with the different weights/lengths. 

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, Alan Pllu said:

My argument with myself is from a possibly oversimplified view of at 48 inches if the head speed is higher, even if strike suffers a little would the reduced efficiency be offset by the higher input? So output would then on average be comparable with a better strike with a lower swing speed with a shorter shaft, but with the potential of more output when struck well? 

 

It may be or it may not be, it's going to be a bit different for everyone.   That's something you'll have to figure out yourself during the testing.  It completely depends on how the swing speed and how the face impact tendencies change as the playing length chages.

 

10 hours ago, Alan Pllu said:

Then I am wondering from a physics possibly overcomplicated view if I need to make the head lighter on the longer shaft will this be less energy transfer than a heavier head on a shorter shaft at a slower speed? 

 

In theory yes, but it's actually only a very small difference - maybe 1-2 mph in ball speed for 10-20 gm change in head weight.

 

[EDT501]

6 hours ago, Alan Pllu said:

I have tried putting some lead tape under the grip to counterbalance it to an extent but it just ended up very heavy and feels more like thors hammer than a driver! 

I’d focus more on the total weight than the swing weight for an over length build. At 48” unless you have a wicked light (or very counter-balanced) shaft and head, the swing weight is going to be high, that’s just part of the territory. But if you can keep the overall weight relatively sane you’ll have an easier time, at least that’s the advice I got from my go to club guy. For reference my driver is clocking in at D9.8 these days whereas my decade-long gamer, a 910D3 with a shorter heavier shaft, came in at D6.5. The overall weight stayed roughly the same though ~335g.

 

Long story short, you’re pushing beyond the boundaries of traditional club making at 46”+, so you’ll have to do a lot of experimenting and be open to not using traditional metrics like swing weight as guide posts. 

[Stuart_G]

24 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

At 48” unless you have a wicked light (or very counter-balanced) shaft and head, the swing weight is going to be high, that’s just part of the territory.

 

But with the proper head selection, it doesn't have to be.   Lots of heads now with larger movable weights that can be removed to fix the swing weight issue.   And it's always going to be much more effective to fix the issue directly than indirectly through the shaft weight.   Reducing total weight can only go so far to help a head weight that's too heavy for the player.

[Drumdog]

I was thinking about going back to a longer shaft myself so I am interested in your findings.

Back in the day I had a Callaway War Bird on a 50" stiff steel shaft and that thing was a bomber.

I was averaging 290 from the tee and with that shallow face, I had no problems hitting it off the turf.

I definitely had to learn to swing it low and slow when I first got it. Hulking on it from the top never worked, but applying the power near the bottom worked well. Unfortunately the low and slow swing speed with that club bled over to the rest of my bag and that became a problem and affected the rest of my game. I gave the club to a friend and I went back to a standard length shaft. Now that I am 63 and reading about the popularity of longer shafts, it has me thinking..... 

[EDT501]

For anyone following this thread, definitely defer to @Stuart_G as he’s one of the masters on this forum. 
 

But my experience was that removing a bunch of weight from the head to get the swing weight back down to where I’ve played it previously resulted in a less stable club. I found my best results by trying to get the total weight of the club roughly the same as what I was used too rather than  trying to chase a swing weight value. Again, this is just my personal anecdote not a universal rule. 
 

I will stick by my statement that if you’re trying something radically different from your norm, like a 48” driver, you should also be open to trying a large range of swing weights, total weights, hosel settings, etc to find what feels best for the new club and not just hold to what value worked for a previous setup built to very different parameters.

[Stuart_G]

37 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

But my experience was that removing a bunch of weight from the head to get the swing weight back down to where I’ve played it previously resulted in a less stable club. I found my best results by trying to get the total weight of the club roughly the same as what I was used too rather than  trying to chase a swing weight value. Again, this is just my personal anecdote not a universal rule.

 

You should never try to chase swing weight values.   What you should do is start from scratch and refit head weight anytime you make a change to any other spec - playing length, shaft weight, shaft balance point, and even (ideally) grip weight.   It's never about the swing weight value unless you want to reproduce everything exactly from a previous club - same shaft model and weight, same playing length, and same grip.   Instead it's always about the feel and the swing weight scale can't help you out in that respect.  That's something you can only figure out swinging the club and hitting balls. 

 

Now, in the context of a playing length change, you should also refit for shaft weight as it certainly can be important as well.  And the ideal shaft weight for an individual will generally change with playing length.   Normally it wont change in a way that the static weight will stay the same (just like they don't stay the same in your irons as they get longer) but there are always exceptions.   But the important point is that when looking at head weight and shaft weight,  you don't really want to change one as a "fix" for a problem with the other unless it's a last resort.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Alan Pllu]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It may be or it may not be, it's going to be a bit different for everyone.   That's something you'll have to figure out yourself during the testing.  It completely depends on how the swing speed and how the face impact tendencies change as the playing length chages.

 

 

In theory yes, but it's actually only a very small difference - maybe 1-2 mph in ball speed for 10-20 gm change in head weight.

 

Thats settled my curiosity with head weight then, I thought it would have more of a speed impact for that amount of weight, I feel a bit happier about trying lighter head weight now. 

 

Would it be detrimental to the club in any way to play a ts3 driver without the weight cartridge in if it came to it? 

[cxx]

You may might want to consider a stiffer shaft than you would for traditional lengths.  The extra shaft length with the same head weight will make the club feel softer so bump up to the next flex. I found a full flex stiffer felt the same as the traditional length.

 

 

[Alan Pllu]

1 hour ago, Drumdog said:

I was thinking about going back to a longer shaft myself so I am interested in your findings.

Back in the day I had a Callaway War Bird on a 50" stiff steel shaft and that thing was a bomber.

I was averaging 290 from the tee and with that shallow face, I had no problems hitting it off the turf.

I definitely had to learn to swing it low and slow when I first got it. Hulking on it from the top never worked, but applying the power near the bottom worked well. Unfortunately the low and slow swing speed with that club bled over to the rest of my bag and that became a problem and affected the rest of my game. I gave the club to a friend and I went back to a standard length shaft. Now that I am 63 and reading about the popularity of longer shafts, it has me thinking..... 

That type of swing sounds like the way I normally swing with low and slow being my takeaway thought. My game goes off badly when I start to get quick in transition so longer might actually help me then. 

[Stuart_G]

1 minute ago, Alan Pllu said:

Would it be detrimental to the club in any way to play a ts3 driver without the weight cartridge in if it came to it? 

 

To the club, very unlikely.  I've not examined one in any amount of detail but I seriously doubt it plays any part in the structural integrity of the head.   It certainly wouldn't be a problem with any model I have examined.

[Alan Pllu]

1 hour ago, EDT501 said:

For anyone following this thread, definitely defer to @Stuart_G as he’s one of the masters on this forum. 
 

But my experience was that removing a bunch of weight from the head to get the swing weight back down to where I’ve played it previously resulted in a less stable club. I found my best results by trying to get the total weight of the club roughly the same as what I was used too rather than  trying to chase a swing weight value. Again, this is just my personal anecdote not a universal rule. 
 

I will stick by my statement that if you’re trying something radically different from your norm, like a 48” driver, you should also be open to trying a large range of swing weights, total weights, hosel settings, etc to find what feels best for the new club and not just hold to what value worked for a previous setup built to very different parameters.

That makes sense thanks. My weight kit has arrived in the post today so I will be doing some testing with the lighter weight cartridge in it and have already taken the grip and lead tape off in preparation for the weights arriving. Will try keep the weight down and see how it feels on further testing. 

[Alan Pllu]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You should never try to chase swing weight values.   What you should do is start from scratch and refit head weight anytime you make a change to any other spec - playing length, shaft weight, shaft balance point, and even (ideally) grip weight.   It's never about the swing weight value unless you want to reproduce everything exactly from a previous club - same shaft model and weight, same playing length, and same grip.   Instead it's always about the feel and the swing weight scale can't help you out in that respect.  That's something you can only figure out swinging the club and hitting balls. 

 

Now, in the context of a playing length change, you should also refit for shaft weight as it certainly can be important as well.  And the ideal shaft weight for an individual will generally change with playing length.   Normally it wont change in a way that the static weight will stay the same (just like they don't stay the same in your irons as they get longer) but there are always exceptions.   But the important point is that when looking at head weight and shaft weight,  you don't really want to change one as a "fix" for a problem with the other unless it's a last resort.

Thanks again for the input Stuart, makes sense that when doing something as different as the extra length that I should effectively start from scratch again. 

 

 

[EDT501]

I’ve hit my TS3 probably 200 times with no weight cartridge in place and it’s had no ill effect on the head. I’m not fast by some Wrxers standard, but I can get clubhead speed into the low-mid 120s so I’m no slouch either. Sound without the cartridge seemed a bit tinny-er, but wasn’t terrible.

 

This is might not be relevant to you, but at least with my TS3 the screw has a hole clear through it, rendering it illegal for competition per usga rules. A small piece of lead tape covering that hole would theoretically make it legal again I believe if your planning to compete in a major am event.

[Alan Pllu]

13 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

I’ve hit my TS3 probably 200 times with no weight cartridge in place and it’s had no ill effect on the head. I’m not fast by some Wrxers standard, but I can get clubhead speed into the low-mid 120s so I’m no slouch either. Sound without the cartridge seemed a bit tinny-er, but wasn’t terrible.

 

This is might not be relevant to you, but at least with my TS3 the screw has a hole clear through it, rendering it illegal for competition per usga rules. A small piece of lead tape covering that hole would theoretically make it legal again I believe if your planning to compete in a major am event.

Depending on the launch monitor used with standard length I am between 100-113mph so I'm not as fast as you. Don't know what I am with the longer shaft as I can't swing it in my home setup because I'll put a hole in the roof and haven't had a chance to test outside yet on the monitor. 

 

Didn't know that about the hole in the screw that's a new one on me. I will only be playing club comps so no major am comps for me in the near future. 

[Alan Pllu]

5 hours ago, EDT501 said:

I’d focus more on the total weight than the swing weight for an over length build. At 48” unless you have a wicked light (or very counter-balanced) shaft and head, the swing weight is going to be high, that’s just part of the territory. But if you can keep the overall weight relatively sane you’ll have an easier time, at least that’s the advice I got from my go to club guy. For reference my driver is clocking in at D9.8 these days whereas my decade-long gamer, a 910D3 with a shorter heavier shaft, came in at D6.5. The overall weight stayed roughly the same though ~335g.

 

Long story short, you’re pushing beyond the boundaries of traditional club making at 46”+, so you’ll have to do a lot of experimenting and be open to not using traditional metrics like swing weight as guide posts. 

Just weighed the driver as I had set it up for the last 2 rounds, 402g! Was a bit heavy! 

 

I have taken the weight cartridge out and the lead tape (60g of under the grip to get the swingweight to a decent range) and it is now 330g and just a touch under D6 swingweight. 

 

I will retest this weekend and see how I get on with it. 

 

In other news I bought the full TS driver and fairway weight kit, I had taken my preferred 3 wood shaft hzrdus yellow handcrafted out of it because it felt too light in the head, +6g weight in the head of it and it now feels lovely. Also have the weights to tweak my hybrids as well as the ts2 hybrid weights are the same as the fairways. Good purchase all round. 

[BREWMASTER95060]

4 hours ago, cxx said:

You may might want to consider a stiffer shaft than you would for traditional lengths.  The extra shaft length with the same head weight will make the club feel softer so bump up to the next flex. I found a full flex stiffer felt the same as the traditional length.

 

 

Yes!
XX in a driver 48+ inches it is not as stiff as you would think.
or 
this 
a lower loft head on a weaker shaft.
please note the head weight.

Edited April 15, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[BREWMASTER95060]

[BREWMASTER95060]

my last 3 50" long drive shafts

[dsmil]

Sasho Mackenzie came out with some information recently that is helpful.  The first was that for every inch increase in shaft length, if you adjust head weight to keep swingweight the same (reduce headweight), you'd expect a .8-1.6 increase in club head speed (let's call this 1.2-2.4 mph in balls speeds).  I believe that to keep SW the same by reducing headweight, you'd have to reduce it by about 10 grams for that 1 inch.  Now if you don't have a way of reducing headweight, I'm guessing (not from Sasho) that your swing speed won't really increase because SW gets very heavy.  

 

If you can somehow remove 10 grams from the head, you also have to deal with the slight decrease in ball speeds because of a decrease in clubhead mass.  Sasho also came out with a chart which explains this, and it looks like removing 10 grams from the head, and keeping swing speed the same, would decrease ball speeds by 2.5 mph.  So in summary, if you increase the length by an inch and decrease head weight by 10g, ball speeds go up 1.2-2.4 mph from the increase in clubhead speed, but ball speeds go down 2.5 mph from the decrease in clubhead mass.  Not to mention the average person won't be finding the sweet spot quite as much.

 

I think that the way to go with increased driver length is preserve the head weight, see if swing speed drops, and if so, maybe try out a lighter or counterbalanced shaft.  If you reduce shaft weight by 20g for example, you'll still be at an elevated SW per the scale (increased length outweights shaft weight), but maybe you'd have a better shot at preserving swing speed with that longer shaft.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, dsmil said:

Now if you don't have a way of reducing headweight, I'm guessing (not from Sasho) that your swing speed won't really increase because SW gets very heavy.  

 

It's possible but the weight of the driver head is rarely the factor that dictates the swing speed limit for most individuals, especially for ams.   So it's not really a good assumption.    Head weight certainly can effect the swing speed but it's not usually about strength vs mass - it's much more commonly about how the feel effects the control of the swing - sequencing, release timing, rhythm and tempo, even the awareness of where the club is during different parts of the swing.   

 

But it's not too hard for each individual to test and see what happens for them.   Just change head weight in the context of no change to the playing length.   e.g. get a club head speed for your current driver.   Remove 10 gms and get club head speed for that.  Then add back 20 gm (+10 from the original weight) and see what you can get out of that.   If you can, also look at how the dynamic loft changes for those configurations - since that will also have a big effect on the ball speed.  Obviously it should be done hitting balls with a 'normal' swing - not necessarily trying to hit out of your shoes (unless that is your normal swing).

 

 

 

[JCAG]

My personal experience with drivers is anything over 46in and I lose accuracy. The added distance on a good hit is not worth the loss of accuracy to me.

[BREWMASTER95060]