"lost ball"

[Jc0]

Was playing today and hit a tee shot a little right near the cart path but lost sight of it about 130ish from the green. Looked for a little bit and couldn't find it. Rules of golf say can't find it, have to go back and re-tee. Once I got to the green I found my ball basically pin high over 100 yards from where I expected it. According to the rules am I allowed to finish out using my original ball or am I screwed over because the ball finished so far from where I was expecting that I was never going to look there?

[Sawgrass]

If three minutes passed since you started searching for the ball, it was lost and may no longer be legally played. So the new ball you put in play was the only option.

[Newby]

21 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

Was playing today and hit a tee shot a little right near the cart path but lost sight of it about 130ish from the green. Looked for a little bit and couldn't find it. Rules of golf say can't find it, have to go back and re-tee. Once I got to the green I found my ball basically pin high over 100 yards from where I expected it. According to the rules am I allowed to finish out using my original ball or am I screwed over because the ball finished so far from where I was expecting that I was never going to look there?

Did you go back and re-tee? If so, once you hit that ball your original was lost according to the rules, whether or not you found it later. The second ball is now your ball in play lying 3.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

And even if you had not put another ball in play your original ball on the green would still have been lost if the 3 minutes search time had elapsed before you spotted that ball. This is because the area where you were looking for the ball was the area where that ball was likely to be and that is not changed afterwards by the fact that the ball is found later in an area not anticipated in the beginning.

 

EDIT: Funny enough, I cannot find that in the Rules anymore but I have not heard that it would have changed. Any comments anybody?

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[dmecca2]

I thought of something that happened kinda like this. During a local USGA qualifier a couple years ago there were some very very wet spots in the rough just off the fairway where balls would CONSTANTLY get lost. So they implemented a local rule allowing a free drop if everyone agreed the ball was plugged in that area. What would happen if your 3 minutes expired, you took the free drop after everyone agreed, and you found the original before hitting? Would the new ball be in play? 

[rogolf]

56 minutes ago, Newby said:

Did you go back and re-tee? If so, once you hit that ball your original was lost according to the rules, whether or not you found it later. The second ball is now your ball in play lying 3.

Technically, the original ball is not "lost" but is no longer in play (Rule 18.1).

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

I thought of something that happened kinda like this. During a local USGA qualifier a couple years ago there were some very very wet spots in the rough just off the fairway where balls would CONSTANTLY get lost. So they implemented a local rule allowing a free drop if everyone agreed the ball was plugged in that area. What would happen if your 3 minutes expired, you took the free drop after everyone agreed, and you found the original before hitting? Would the new ball be in play? 

There are several questions about such a local Rule that you've described, including,

- was the area marked as an abnormal course condition in any way?

- if the ball was not found, was it known or virtually certain that it was in the "marked" abnormal course condition?

- if the ball was not found but it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the "marked" abnormal course condition, where were the players taking their relief?

[Sawgrass]

25 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

I thought of something that happened kinda like this. During a local USGA qualifier a couple years ago there were some very very wet spots in the rough just off the fairway where balls would CONSTANTLY get lost. So they implemented a local rule allowing a free drop if everyone agreed the ball was plugged in that area. What would happen if your 3 minutes expired, you took the free drop after everyone agreed, and you found the original before hitting? Would the new ball be in play? 

I confess I am kinda horrified by the “if everyone agreed” aspect you describe.  I seriously doubt that the USGA would approve that other random competitors would be endorsed as a literal authority on such matters.

That being said, if the area you describe was defined by the committee as being Ground Under Repair, and a player has virtual certainty that his ball is lost within that GUR, he is entitled to free relief.  (Practically speaking, if observing competitors don’t complain, you’re likely to get the same benefit irrespective of any agreement.

 

The last answer is that the subsequent discovery of the original ball may require you to adjust the free relief area, so as long as you didn’t yet hit you might have to do that, but you may no longer play the original ball as it lay.

 

[Mr. Bean]

32 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

I thought of something that happened kinda like this. During a local USGA qualifier a couple years ago there were some very very wet spots in the rough just off the fairway where balls would CONSTANTLY get lost. So they implemented a local rule allowing a free drop if everyone agreed the ball was plugged in that area. What would happen if your 3 minutes expired, you took the free drop after everyone agreed, and you found the original before hitting? Would the new ball be in play? 

 

That kind of a Local Rule is against the Rules and must be approved by R&A or USGA.

 

But to your question, if the 3 min time has expired the ball is lost and that is a wrong ball if played.

[dmecca2]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That kind of a Local Rule is against the Rules and must be approved by R&A or USGA.

 

But to your question, if the 3 min time has expired the ball is lost and that is a wrong ball if played.

This was a US open local qualifier. The area was not marked (it would have been too large) but defined as the "right rough on the 6th hole). It wasn't hard to determine if the ball landed in the area, and an official was placed on the hole. Someone in my group hit a ball there and even with the official present, we didn't find the ball. 

 

11 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I confess I am kinda horrified by the “if everyone agreed” aspect you describe.  I seriously doubt that the USGA would approve that other random competitors would be endorsed as a literal authority on such matters.

That being said, if the area you describe was defined by the committee as being Ground Under Repair, and a player has virtual certainty that his ball is lost within that GUR, he is entitled to free relief.  (Practically speaking, if observing competitors don’t complain, you’re likely to get the same benefit irrespective of any agreement.

 

The last answer is that the subsequent discovery of the original ball may require you to adjust the free relief area, so as long as you didn’t yet hit you might have to do that, but you may no longer play the original ball as it lay.

 

So I would then pick up my dropped ball, and take a free relief drop at the nearest point from the plugged ball. What if I hit my ball, and then found the original 15 yards up?

 

14 minutes ago, rogolf said:

There are several questions about such a local Rule that you've described, including,

- was the area marked as an abnormal course condition in any way?

- if the ball was not found, was it known or virtually certain that it was in the "marked" abnormal course condition?

- if the ball was not found but it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the "marked" abnormal course condition, where were the players taking their relief?

No not marked with a line, but defined as I said above. Yes definitely certain the ball was there. And despite the area constantly losing balls, it was largely not wet enough to be casual water so players and rules official agreed upon a spot to drop where the ball was believed to be. 

[Sawgrass]

As to the question you asked me, yes, once having subsequently found the plugged ball you would adjust the relief area based on where the ball rested (rather than where it previously crossed the GUR edge).  If you had already hit, no problem, pick up the plugged ball, clean it, and use it on the next hole after you lose another one in the water!

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

This was a US open local qualifier. The area was not marked (it would have been too large) but defined as the "right rough on the 6th hole). It wasn't hard to determine if the ball landed in the area, and an official was placed on the hole. Someone in my group hit a ball there and even with the official present, we didn't find the ball. 

 

 

I have never heard of such a LR, those areas have always been marked and NEED to be marked. I have refereed in a competition in which balls plugged into the fairway but as there was no temporary water AND that area had not been marked as GUR those ball had to be found. I was standing there for a couple of hours helping the players and luckily no balls were lost. At that time it was very clearly stated that we could not have drafted such a LR as you describe, it is simply against the Rules of Golf.

 

The problem with such 'right rough on the 6th hole' is the defining of the edges. How do you know where this area begins and where it ends? And even large areas can be marked with stakes, that has never been a problem.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Augster]

Why wouldn’t you be able to define it as “right rough on the 6th hole”? That statement does define the area. Also, they put a ref down there to see where they land. 
 

If it wasn’t in the rough, they’d see it in the fairway or the first cut. Without a first cut, it’s very easy to define. It’s rough, or it’s closely mown fairway. 
 

I don’t see a problem with it, especially if there is a ref stationed there. Putting one stake at the tee box, and one stake at the green to define the “right rough” doesn’t seem necessary or nearly as accurate as “right rough on 6”. 
 

[Mr. Bean]

45 minutes ago, Augster said:

Why wouldn’t you be able to define it as “right rough on the 6th hole”? That statement does define the area. Also, they put a ref down there to see where they land. 
 

If it wasn’t in the rough, they’d see it in the fairway or the first cut. Without a first cut, it’s very easy to define. It’s rough, or it’s closely mown fairway. 
 

I don’t see a problem with it, especially if there is a ref stationed there. Putting one stake at the tee box, and one stake at the green to define the “right rough” doesn’t seem necessary or nearly as accurate as “right rough on 6”. 
 

 

How would you define the front edge and the back edge?

 

Committee Procedures describes this issue in the following manner:

 

2F: A Committee can define the edge of ground under repair by describing it, but only if there will be little or no doubt over what constitutes the area or its edges.

 

5B: The Committee should review the entire course to ensure that any areas that should be marked as ground under repair are properly marked.

 

To me that leaves very little doubt how a GUR needs to be marked. Mere saying that 'rough on the right side of hole 6 is GUR' is far from adequate unless there are some accurate edges that can be easily recognized, such as roads or paths or grass of clearly different height on each side of the rough area.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I have never heard of such a LR, those areas have always been marked and NEED to be marked. I have refereed in a competition in which balls plugged into the fairway but as there was no temporary water AND that area had not been marked as GUR those ball had to be found. I was standing there for a couple of hours helping the players and luckily no balls were lost. At that time it was very clearly stated that we could not have drafted such a LR as you describe, it is simply against the Rules of Golf.

 

The problem with such 'right rough on the 6th hole' is the defining of the edges. How do you know where this area begins and where it ends? And even large areas can be marked with stakes, that has never been a problem.

 

I agree. Very sloppy work by the Tournament Director.

[dmecca2]

On 4/16/2021 at 6:19 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

How would you define the front edge and the back edge?

 

Committee Procedures describes this issue in the following manner:

 

2F: A Committee can define the edge of ground under repair by describing it, but only if there will be little or no doubt over what constitutes the area or its edges.

 

5B: The Committee should review the entire course to ensure that any areas that should be marked as ground under repair are properly marked.

 

To me that leaves very little doubt how a GUR needs to be marked. Mere saying that 'rough on the right side of hole 6 is GUR' is far from adequate unless there are some accurate edges that can be easily recognized, such as roads or paths or grass of clearly different height on each side of the rough area.

 

To us playing, we knew what the area was on the hole that the balls would be lost. There was a cart path on the right that acted as the right boundary and a cart path in front that marks the beginning of the rough. To the left was fairway, and there was no possibility of going long of the rough, but I guess if someone did hit a drive 400 yards, there's a hazard. 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, dmecca2 said:

 

To us playing, we knew what the area was on the hole that the balls would be lost. There was a cart path on the right that acted as the right boundary and a cart path in front that marks the beginning of the rough. To the left was fairway, and there was no possibility of going long of the rough, but I guess if someone did hit a drive 400 yards, there's a hazard. 

Which presumably puts my third shot in peril. 🙂

[2bGood]

A wrinkle to this one. 

 

Hit ball into rough, can't find it. Go back hit a second ball (third stroke). Get back to the fairway and discover another player hit my ball in the rough and that is why I did not find it (he did not identify it in the rough and hit before me and when he went to hit the next shot realised it was not his ball). 3min had expired. 

 

what is the call? 

[MPAndreassi]

8 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

A wrinkle to this one. 

 

Hit ball into rough, can't find it. Go back hit a second ball (third stroke). Get back to the fairway and discover another player hit my ball in the rough and that is why I did not find it (he did not identify it in the rough and hit before me and when he went to hit the next shot realised it was not his ball). 3min had expired. 

 

what is the call? 

We actually had an oddly similar circumstance pop up with past weekend. Our 18th and 11th hole run parallel to one another. There was a match going on the 18th hole and a casual club round playing on the 11th hole. A player from the 11th hole played a ball from the shared rough before the players from the 18th tee got to the landing area. The casual round player had hit the wrong ball from the rough which belonged to the player in the match. Curious to what the ruling would be here as well.

[2bGood]

20 minutes ago, MPAndreassi said:

We actually had an oddly similar circumstance pop up with past weekend. Our 18th and 11th hole run parallel to one another. There was a match going on the 18th hole and a casual club round playing on the 11th hole. A player from the 11th hole played a ball from the shared rough before the players from the 18th tee got to the landing area. The casual round player had hit the wrong ball from the rough which belonged to the player in the match. Curious to what the ruling would be here as well.

Identical situation here. I figure this has come up before, but it is tough search to zero in on and this was the closest I could find.

[antip]

4 hours ago, 2bGood said:

A wrinkle to this one. 

 

Hit ball into rough, can't find it. Go back hit a second ball (third stroke). Get back to the fairway and discover another player hit my ball in the rough and that is why I did not find it (he did not identify it in the rough and hit before me and when he went to hit the next shot realised it was not his ball). 3min had expired. 

 

what is the call? 

Tough luck, second ball is lying three. IF (but didn't happen here) you called the second ball a provisional and then discover still within the original search time that your original ball was played by someone else as a wrong ball, then you must proceed with the original replaced to the position it was played from (estimating spot if necessary) and no penalty.

[antip]

4 hours ago, MPAndreassi said:

We actually had an oddly similar circumstance pop up with past weekend. Our 18th and 11th hole run parallel to one another. There was a match going on the 18th hole and a casual club round playing on the 11th hole. A player from the 11th hole played a ball from the shared rough before the players from the 18th tee got to the landing area. The casual round player had hit the wrong ball from the rough which belonged to the player in the match. Curious to what the ruling would be here as well.

More information needed to rule. If this was discovered before the players on 18 got there, the original or another ball must be replaced in the rough. If a search had started but the facts are discovered before the search time lapses, again original or another ball must be replaced in rough. If facts only emerge after search time lapses, original ball is lost and player on 18 must do stroke and distance.

Golf can be cruel when you are a victim of someone playing your ball and you don't discover this fact within the search time.

Edited May 5, 2021 by antip
minor wording tweak