Rule 4.3 - Penalty Question

[2bGood]

I am going a bit out there on this one, but another person passionate about the ROG and I got chatting today about distance measuring devices with slope and devolved into other areas of 4.3.

 

Under rule 4.3 it is general penalty for the 'first instance'. 

 

He argued that 'first instance' is the first time you are made aware using the device. I said first instance is the first time time you use it, wether you know you broke the rule or not, use it twice and your are DQ'd. He brought up Rule 1.3(c)4 and I was left questioning myself after reading that.

 

We then got into music as it is also covered in 4.3, and is music (providing a distraction) one instance or multiple? IE if You think music helps you focus enough to save 3 strokes, can you turn it on and listen to it during the round and take your 2 stroke penalty knowing you come out ahead?

Edited April 18, 2021 by 2bGood

[rogolf]

Imo, you are correct.  The first instance is when the player the player uses it, regardless of whether he or she knew it was a breach of the Rules.

See below for I consider the relevant sections of the Rules,

1.2 Standards of Player Conduct

a. Conduct Expected of All Players

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

1.3 Playing by the Rules 

b. Applying the Rules

(1) Player Responsibility for Applying the Rules. Players are responsible for applying the Rules to themselves:

• Players are expected to recognize when they have breached a Rule and to be honest in applying their own penalties.
  • If a player knows that he or she has breached a Rule that involves a penalty and deliberately fails to apply the penalty, the player is disqualified.

[Mr. Bean]

To me the penalty clause of 4.3 is very clear: Penalty for first breach from single act or related acts: General penalty.

 

First breach is first breach and counting starts from 1, not 4 or 7. It is player's responsibility to know the Rules.

[Sawgrass]

I fear the above is not correct.  I know for sure, for instance, that taking a bucket of balls out on the course on the day before you play a stroke play competition, and striking one ball, yields a general penalty. The second strike yields DQ.

 

Not exactly the same, I acknowledge, but not knowing you were violating that rule doesn’t save you.

Clarification:

Rule 5.2:

1. First Breach Happens When First Stroke Made:

The penalty for the first breach of Rule 5.2 applies when a player commits a single act (such as making a stroke). The disqualification penalty for the second breach applies when that player commits any subsequent act that is not allowed (such as rolling a ball or making another stroke). These are not treated as related acts under Rule 1.3c(4). (Added 12/2018)

Edit: I meant I feared Rogolf was not correct, I agree with Mr. Bean. 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Sawgrass

[Sawgrass]

11 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Duplicate

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Sawgrass

[2bGood]

So how about the music part?

 

Is music (providing a distraction) one instance or multiple? IE if You think music helps you focus enough to save 3 strokes, can you turn it on and listen to it during the round and take your 2 stroke penalty knowing you come out ahead?

 

How would you measure 'one instance' with using music for distraction or tempo? By Song? By Swing, by Hole? 

 

 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

I fear the above is not correct.  I know for sure, for instance, that taking a bucket of balls out on the course on the day before you play a stroke play competition, and striking one ball, yields a general penalty. The second strike yields DQ.

 

Not exactly the same, I acknowledge, but not knowing you were violating that rule doesn’t save you.

Clarification:

Rule 5.2:

1. First Breach Happens When First Stroke Made:

The penalty for the first breach of Rule 5.2 applies when a player commits a single act (such as making a stroke). The disqualification penalty for the second breach applies when that player commits any subsequent act that is not allowed (such as rolling a ball or making another stroke). These are not treated as related acts under Rule 1.3c(4). (Added 12/2018)

Edit: I meant I feared Rogolf was not correct, I agree with Mr. Bean. 

 

On the day before???

 

I thought Rogolf and Mr Bean were saying the same thing, 🤔

 

What a confusing start to a new day. 🥴  I think I'll go back to sleep and try again later.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Colin L

[antip]

5 hours ago, Colin L said:

On the day before???

 

I thought Rogolf and Mr Bean were saying the same thing, 🤔

 

What a confusing start to a new day. 🥴  I think I'll go back to sleep and try again later.

 

 

 

 

I agree, I think they are saying the same thing too - that is, the first time you do it is general penalty whether you know it is penalty or not.

If you used it twice before a specific stroke - that would be related breach and only one penalty, but if you use it then make a stroke, any subsequent use is DQ per 1.3c(4)/1 first bullet point. The same would apply to the music situation - use it and make a stroke, one breach; use it again any time later in the same round, DQ. 

This is different to the practice on the course issue which was subject to a specific clarification precisely because those arrangements above are not to apply.

[Shilgy]

9 hours ago, 2bGood said:

So how about the music part?

 

Is music (providing a distraction) one instance or multiple? IE if You think music helps you focus enough to save 3 strokes, can you turn it on and listen to it during the round and take your 2 stroke penalty knowing you come out ahead?

 

How would you measure 'one instance' with using music for distraction or tempo? By Song? By Swing, by Hole? 

 

 

My personal preference is rule 1.2 and they can shut the music off. Or at least quietly enough that no one else can hear it.

 

Which i realize is different than your question.  Without looking isn’t the music question a prolonged period of time? Of course “prolonged” is not really defined.

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, Colin L said:

On the day before???

 

I thought Rogolf and Mr Bean were saying the same thing, 🤔

 

What a confusing start to a new day. 🥴  I think I'll go back to sleep and try again later.

 

 

 

Thank goodness SOMEONE knows how to use the "Quote" button.

 

Yes, RO and Beanie WERE saying the same thing; 1st instance, NOT 1st time you discover it.

 

Now as for sawbones,,,,,,,,,,

 

"taking a bucket of balls out on the course on the day before you play a stroke play competition"

 

He meant, "on the day you PLAY a competition, hitting balls on the course BEFORE the round, results in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"

 

We often understand exactly what we wrote because WE wrote it. But others ? Not always so easy, is it ? 

[Sawgrass]

9 hours ago, Colin L said:

On the day before???

 

I thought Rogolf and Mr Bean were saying the same thing, 🤔

 

What a confusing start to a new day. 🥴  I think I'll go back to sleep and try again later.

 

 

 

 

Oh, boy, how artless of me.  I now see I agree with both Rogolf and Bean.  And I meant, “On the day of a stroke play tournament, before you play . . . “ but my “taking a bucket of balls out on the course on the day before you play a stroke play competition” was hopelessly ambiguous. 

[Colin L]

8 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Oh, boy, how artless of me.  I now see I agree with both Rogolf and Bean.  And I meant, “On the day of a stroke play tournament, before you play . . . “ but my “taking a bucket of balls out on the course on the day before you play a stroke play competition” was hopelessly ambiguous. 

I feel better now.  😎

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, 2bGood said:

So how about the music part?

 

Is music (providing a distraction) one instance or multiple? IE if You think music helps you focus enough to save 3 strokes, can you turn it on and listen to it during the round and take your 2 stroke penalty knowing you come out ahead?

 

How would you measure 'one instance' with using music for distraction or tempo? By Song? By Swing, by Hole? 

 

 

 

This music stuff is really cray cray. It's like saying "there are great people on both sides" trying not to "offend" anybody.

 

Playing music loudly and distracting others, IIRC, is a violation for which (I believe) there is no defined penalty.

 

But your example is borderline ridiculous. If this mythical someone is knowingly breaking a rule by using the music for tempo he's certainly not going to tell you that's why he's using it.

 

And he's certainly not taking a 2 stroke penalty because he "knows" the music will save him 3.

 

And if admitting to it and being called on it results in the general penalty, IF he's dumb enough to do it again, and you call him on it, he'll simply deny he's using it for anything helpful to his game.

 

PLUS, as I believe someone pointed out on another thread on this music subject, if he's even listening to music to keep himself calm and relaxed, i.e. "eliminating distractions", during the round, can that not be construed as using music to help his game ?

 

IMO the USGA/R&A simply waffled and didn't want to make any enemies. 🤦‍♀️

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

This music stuff is really cray cray. It's like saying "there are great people on both sides" trying not to "offend" anybody.

 

Playing music loudly and distracting others, IIRC, is a violation for which (I believe) there is no defined penalty.

 

But your example is borderline ridiculous. If this mythical someone is knowingly breaking a rule by using the music for tempo he's certainly not going to tell you that's why he's using it.

 

And he's certainly not taking a 2 stroke penalty because he "knows" the music will save him 3.

 

And if admitting to it and being called on it results in the general penalty, IF he's dumb enough to do it again, and you call him on it, he'll simply deny he's using it for anything helpful to his game.

 

PLUS, as I believe someone pointed out on another thread on this music subject, if he's even listening to music to keep himself calm and relaxed, i.e. "eliminating distractions", during the round, can that not be construed as using music to help his game ?

 

IMO the USGA/R&A simply waffled and didn't want to make any enemies. 🤦‍♀️

Hopefully I can redirect this as I did not want to go down the music road specifically more about how to interpret rule 4.3 and it's terms.

 

Let say a person clips an anemometer to their cart and turns it on. They receive information about wind throughout the round. Is the first instance, the first time they look at it? The first time the information assist in a stroke or when they turned it on?

 

Let say they select a club based in part on the advice of the instrument, then the wind picks up, they see a new reading and change clubs - two instances or one?

Edited April 18, 2021 by 2bGood

[TwistedSister]

22 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Hopefully I can redirect this as I did not want to go do the music road specifically more about how to interpret rules 4.3 and it's terms.

 

Let say a person puts clips an anemometer to their cart and turns it on. They receive information about wind throughout the round. Is the first instance, the first time they look at it? The first time the information assist in a stroke or when they turned it on?

 

Let say they select a club based on part on the advice of the instrument, then wind pick up they see a new reading and change clubs - two instances or one?

Can't you tell the wind direction by throwing grass in the air?  Who needs a meteorological device?

[Sawgrass]

25 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Hopefully I can redirect this as I did not want to go do the music road specifically more about how to interpret rules 4.3 and it's terms.

 

Let say a person puts clips an anemometer to their cart and turns it on. They receive information about wind throughout the round. Is the first instance, the first time they look at it? The first time the information assist in a stroke or when they turned it on?

 

Let say they select a club based on part on the advice of the instrument, then wind pick up they see a new reading and change clubs - two instances or one?

It’s the USE of illegal equipment that is prohibited, not the availability of such equipment. Accordingly, I would rule against a player each time he/she looks at it.

[2bGood]

4 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

It’s the USE of illegal equipment that is prohibited, not the availability of such equipment. Accordingly, I would rule against a player each time he/she looks at it.

So you would be DQ before you even made a swing if you looked twice?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

I feel better now.  😎

 

Did you get more sleep?

[Mr. Bean]

39 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Hopefully I can redirect this as I did not want to go down the music road specifically more about how to interpret rule 4.3 and it's terms.

 

Let say a person clips an anemometer to their cart and turns it on. They receive information about wind throughout the round. Is the first instance, the first time they look at it? The first time the information assist in a stroke or when they turned it on?

 

Let say they select a club based in part on the advice of the instrument, then the wind picks up, they see a new reading and change clubs - two instances or one?

 

Anybody clipping an anemometer on their cart should be banned for life.

[2bGood]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Anybody clipping an anemometer on their cart should be banned for life.

The rules have somewhat more refined penalty for them. 

[Sawgrass]

23 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

So you would be DQ before you even made a swing if you looked twice?

Yes.  How do you read it?

[Mr. Bean]

31 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yes.  How do you read it?

 

I must disagree with that because there is no intervening act between those two lookings. If you were right mere blinking of the eye would mean more than one breach.

[Shilgy]

31 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yes.  How do you read it?

With something like that they should be DQ’d immediately. Is that rule like the ambiguous rule regarding music use. Could someone clip an anemometer to their cart and NOT GET A PENALTY by claiming they never looked at it?

 

[Sawgrass]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must disagree with that because there is no intervening act between those two lookings. If you were right mere blinking of the eye would mean more than one breach.

I don’t think a blink interrupts a single use, making it two, but I do think looking at a slope function on a DMD, putting it down, then picking it up and looking again does (even though it’s making the same reading).  
 

i have no special information or insight, it’s just the way I read it.  (I have no sympathy for such violations.)

[Sawgrass]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Could someone clip an anemometer to their cart and NOT GET A PENALTY by claiming they never looked at it?

You can’t exactly avoid a penalty by making a claim, but you could by convincing a ref that your claim was true.  The simple truth is you are permitted to carry such illegal equipment, but not use it.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Sawgrass

[Sawgrass]

7 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t think a blink interrupts a single use, making it two, but I do think looking at a slope function on a DMD, putting it down, then picking it up and looking again does (even though it’s making the same reading).  
 

i have no special information or insight, it’s just the way I read it.  (I have no sympathy for such violations.)

After thinking about this more, I think you’ve convinced me, Mr. Bean .

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

You can’t exactly avoid a penalty by making a claim, but you could by convincing a ref that your claim was true.  The simple truth is you are permitted to carry such illegal equipment, but not use it.

As you stated in the post above....”I have no sympathy for such violations.”.....if they are not going to use it why display it on the cart?

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

As you stated in the post above....”I have no sympathy for such violations.”.....if they are not going to use it why display it on the cart?

 

Carrying something may be different from a violation.

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Carrying something may be different from a violation.

I am aware of that. Just saying in the case of an anemometer by fixing it to the cart there is no way for them to avoid “using” it. No matter their proclamations of innocence. 
Don’t want to be penalized? Leave it in the car.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Shilgy

[antip]

4 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

After thinking about this more, I think you’ve convinced me, Mr. Bean .

It's just the same as taking two practice swings in the bunker (hitting the sand) before the stroke. If you are not aware of breach, it is one penalty. You do it once and some says that is a breach and you do it again, that is two breaches. You do it once before a stroke where ball remains in bunker and you practice swing again, that also scores two breaches.

 

2B has raised this same question 3 times in this thread. The answer remains the same each time.