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Anyone Else do an Upright Swing With High Hands? (Jim Hardy's 2-Plane Swing)


k4y
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I recently adopted the "two-plane" swing (as coined by Jim Hardy), which essentially is a more arms-based, upright swing where the swing arc is more vertical and vs around your body.

 

Some of the differences of this upright/2-plane type of swing, according to the Jim Hardy 2-plane swing vs more "standard" golf teachings:

  1. Using more of the arms to generate power, rather than the body
  2. Having less depth at the top of the backswing
  3. Being slightly across-the-line at the top of the backswing
  4. Having a more open club face coming down
  5. Less body and hip openness at impact

 

Of course not every "upright swinger/2-planer" adopts all of the above, but those are the things that Jim Hardy mentioned in his book. Does anyone else adopt a more upright swing? I'm having a tough time finding tips online for this unconventional swing and I'm doing my best to adopt "best practices" by comparing my swing to other 2-planers like David Toms.

 
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If you watch golf from the 90s and back in time most swings by far were two plane. Nicklaus is the all time banner bearer of two plane swing. I don't see instructors these days discussing this so much. Even though two plane is the more natural way to swing.

I love Justin Thomas swing.  Check also Byron Nelson, he defined the modern two plane swing. 

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Hardy’s description of the two plane swing is rediculous. It’s just a marketing ploy to make his version of the so called one plane swing look good. 

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11 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Hardy’s description of the two plane swing is rediculous. It’s just a marketing ploy to make his version of the so called one plane swing look good. 

Have you had a lesson with a Plane Truth instructor?  If you are familiar with Hardy's work, he defines two basic ways to swing the club, and also two basic ways to release the club, each with separate fundamentals.  I'm betting that if you went to a Plane Truth instructor and you had elements of Hardy's 'Marketing Ploy', Two Plane swing, they would not try to sell you the 'One Plane' swing but would rather apply the fundamentals you needed to improve your current motion.  This isn't really any different than George Gankas talking about 'Matchups', or Wright Balance talking about 'Upper , Mid, and Lower Core' swings.  One thing I do know though is that Jim Hardy and his Plane Truth team understand the swing much more than you, and any of them could help you become a better player. 

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19 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Have you had a lesson with a Plane Truth instructor?  If you are familiar with Hardy's work, he defines two basic ways to swing the club, and also two basic ways to release the club, each with separate fundamentals.  I'm betting that if you went to a Plane Truth instructor and you had elements of Hardy's 'Marketing Ploy', Two Plane swing, they would not try to sell you the 'One Plane' swing but would rather apply the fundamentals you needed to improve your current motion.  This isn't really any different than George Gankas talking about 'Matchups', or Wright Balance talking about 'Upper , Mid, and Lower Core' swings.  One thing I do know though is that Jim Hardy and his Plane Truth team understand the swing much more than you, and any of them could help you become a better player. 

No I haven't nor would I pay to do so.  I did read the book years ago, during my obsession with golf instruction books.  I didn't like what I read, I get where he was going with it, but it seemed like an over exaggeration of basic principles, when in reality rarely does anyone go to the extremes he talks about.  

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1 minute ago, dlygrisse said:

No I haven't nor would I pay to do so.  I did read the book years ago, during my obsession with golf instruction books.  I didn't like what I read, I get where he was going with it, but it seemed like an over exaggeration of basic principles, when in reality rarely does anyone go to the extremes he talks about.  

Well....then I would suggest you missed the entire concept of his teachings.  In short....very short....There are separate fundamentals that are applicable to the 'general' way you move the club.  Applying the wrong fundamentals will make you worse.  For instance....getting more open at impact works for some but is counter productive to the upright swinger.  The trick is to understand which of his swing definitions you have the most elements of, then you can disregard 'HALF!', of the instruction you read in magazines, golf forums, hear on the range, etc..  His book 'The Release' is great and expands on his theories very well.  

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15 hours ago, k4y said:

I recently adopted the "two-plane" swing (as coined by Jim Hardy), which essentially is a more arms-based, upright swing where the swing arc is more vertical and vs around your body.

 

Some of the differences of this upright/2-plane type of swing, according to the Jim Hardy 2-plane swing vs more "standard" golf teachings:

  1. Using more of the arms to generate power, rather than the body
  2. Having less depth at the top of the backswing
  3. Being slightly across-the-line at the top of the backswing
  4. Having a more open club face coming down
  5. Less body and hip openness at impact

 

Of course not every "upright swinger/2-planer" adopts all of the above, but those are the things that Jim Hardy mentioned in his book. Does anyone else adopt a more upright swing? I'm having a tough time finding tips online for this unconventional swing and I'm doing my best to adopt "best practices" by comparing my swing to other 2-planers like David Toms.

 

 

You might want to look at Shawn Clement on YouTube.  He doesn't talk about 2 plane or 1 plane but his swing looks very upright to me and I would call it a 2 plane.

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15 hours ago, k4y said:

I recently adopted the "two-plane" swing (as coined by Jim Hardy), which essentially is a more arms-based, upright swing where the swing arc is more vertical and vs around your body.

 

Some of the differences of this upright/2-plane type of swing, according to the Jim Hardy 2-plane swing vs more "standard" golf teachings:

  1. Using more of the arms to generate power, rather than the body
  2. Having less depth at the top of the backswing
  3. Being slightly across-the-line at the top of the backswing
  4. Having a more open club face coming down
  5. Less body and hip openness at impact

 

Of course not every "upright swinger/2-planer" adopts all of the above, but those are the things that Jim Hardy mentioned in his book. Does anyone else adopt a more upright swing? I'm having a tough time finding tips online for this unconventional swing and I'm doing my best to adopt "best practices" by comparing my swing to other 2-planers like David Toms.

 

Buy 'The Release - Golf's Moment Of Truth', it expands on his theories very well and pay attention to his LOP style if you are upright.  There is also a Facebook Forum - ' Plane Truth Golf- Discussion Forum' that Chris and Jim are both active on that has some good info.  The instruction video for the release is also well done though you have to purchase it.

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2 hours ago, DShepley said:

Well....then I would suggest you missed the entire concept of his teachings.  In short....very short....There are separate fundamentals that are applicable to the 'general' way you move the club.  Applying the wrong fundamentals will make you worse.  For instance....getting more open at impact works for some but is counter productive to the upright swinger.  The trick is to understand which of his swing definitions you have the most elements of, then you can disregard 'HALF!', of the instruction you read in magazines, golf forums, hear on the range, etc..  His book 'The Release' is great and expands on his theories very well.  

No, I didn't miss it, but hey, he got me to buy to book, so I guess that was his goal right?  

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2 hours ago, DShepley said:

Buy 'The Release - Golf's Moment Of Truth', it expands on his theories very well and pay attention to his LOP style if you are upright.  There is also a Facebook Forum - ' Plane Truth Golf- Discussion Forum' that Chris and Jim are both active on that has some good info.  The instruction video for the release is also well done though you have to purchase it.

 

I bought his video on LOP vs RIT and found it quite interesting and well-structured. Granted, what he used to call "Two Plane" is now LOP and "Single Plane" RIT, but his ideas are about the same. LOP is a lot like Malaska and especially Larry Rinker, I'm not sure about RIT except Kuchar was using it at least for a while. 

"The company loves its money. If they could, they'd go to strip clubs and throw naked women at money." -Veronica, Veridian Dynamics.

 

"I have been offered a lot for my work, but never everything". - Chris Adams, hired gun.

 

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Just now, nlk10010 said:

 

I bought his video on LOP vs RIT and found it quite interesting and well-structured. Granted, what he used to call "Two Plane" is now LOP and "Single Plane" RIT, but his ideas are about the same. LOP is a lot like Malaska and especially Larry Rinker, I'm not sure about RIT except Kuchar was using it at least for a while. 

You have it backwards.  RIT is a lot like Malaska and LOP is a lot like Larry Rinker's Upper Core.

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Uh, well, I said LOP is like Larry Rinker, although I didn't specify Upper Core. I think you're wrong about Malaska, his backswing is a more vertical than RIT would suggest, you may be focusing on his "tip the club" move. In fact, Rinker and Malaska talk a lot about how they agree (i.e. how Malaska and Rinker's Upper Core are very similar).

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"I have been offered a lot for my work, but never everything". - Chris Adams, hired gun.

 

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33 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

Uh, well, I said LOP is like Larry Rinker, although I didn't specify Upper Core. I think you're wrong about Malaska, his backswing is a more vertical than RIT would suggest, you may be focusing on his "tip the club" move. In fact, Rinker and Malaska talk a lot about how they agree (i.e. how Malaska and Rinker's Upper Core are very similar).

RIT has to do with how the club is moved through the ball.  The lead arm points down inside the ball from a DTL view as the trail arm points at that ball.  The clubface is square to the path at P6 and the body rotates to deliver the club to impact while the triangle formed between the arms disappears left as the body rotates open and the right arm stays bent, the wrists release the club by moving from extension to flexion and the clubface stays square to it's path.   Malaska wants the club to be released through the ball by moving the wrists from extension to flexion, same as RIT.  Rinker with the Upper Core swing wants the club released early and the hands passing the body as the shaft rolls through the ball at the bottom.  The club is swung past the body because the body has stood up and stalled so the club can catch up and pass it.  From a DTL view, (see in the attached video below), the gap between the arms closes by the right elbow moving outward towards the left as the shaft rolls over, (COMPLETE OPPOSITE of a Hardy RIT).  Coming into impact, the LEAD arm is pointing at the ball and the handle is much higher than the RIT release.  Now...watch the Malaska Video at the bottom and tell me if it sounds like an RIT or an LOP....HINT it's RIT.

 

Malaska

 

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46 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

Uh, well, I said LOP is like Larry Rinker, although I didn't specify Upper Core. I think you're wrong about Malaska, his backswing is a more vertical than RIT would suggest, you may be focusing on his "tip the club" move. In fact, Rinker and Malaska talk a lot about how they agree (i.e. how Malaska and Rinker's Upper Core are very similar).

The thing is...Rinker has three sets of differing fundamentals depending on which core type you are.  

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"Sounds like" and "is" are two different things.

 

You're focusing on one aspect of Malaska's swing. The RIT is a one-plane swing, with the plane formed by the arms and club at the top of the backswing parallel to the one formed by the arms and club at address. Malaska's "plane" at the top is not parallel. The RIT requires that the body pivot drive the swing, squaring the clubface at impact (it is square to the path most of the rest of the time). Instead, Malaska drops the butt of the club straight down ("hands in, clubhead out") before rotating through (which I believe is the aspect you're focusing on).

 

Take a look at this video of Hardy explaining the difference between the one-plane "RIT" and two-plane "LOP" swings, or at least that which pertains to practicing with the "Orange Whip": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oheh45b336g  Tell me that his demonstration of the former looks like Malaska. Now I'll grant you that Rinker (UC) and Malaska are different, no issue there. 

 

If you want to disagree with me, fine, just be specific (I've been wrong many times before). Are you saying RIT ISN'T a one-plane swing with the body driving the pivot, or are you saying Malaska's "plane" at the top of his backswing IS parallel to the one at address? Or something else entirely?

 

I don't want to hijack this thread, I will say to the OP that Hardy's two-plane requires requires a lot of work on timing. I think it's also a bit more "body-driven" than Rinker's UC, Hardy isn't (IMO) as much "back to the target" as Rinker.

 

Good Luck.

Edited by nlk10010

"The company loves its money. If they could, they'd go to strip clubs and throw naked women at money." -Veronica, Veridian Dynamics.

 

"I have been offered a lot for my work, but never everything". - Chris Adams, hired gun.

 

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1 hour ago, nlk10010 said:

"Sounds like" and "is" are two different things.

 

You're focusing on one aspect of Malaska's swing. The RIT is a one-plane swing, with the plane formed by the arms and club at the top of the backswing parallel to the one formed by the arms and club at address. Malaska's "plane" at the top is not parallel. The RIT requires that the body pivot drive the swing, squaring the clubface at impact (it is square to the path most of the rest of the time). Instead, Malaska drops the butt of the club straight down ("hands in, clubhead out") before rotating through (which I believe is the aspect you're focusing on).

 

Take a look at this video of Hardy explaining the difference between the one-plane "RIT" and two-plane "LOP" swings, or at least that which pertains to practicing with the "Orange Whip": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oheh45b336g  Tell me that his demonstration of the former looks like Malaska. Now I'll grant you that Rinker (UC) and Malaska are different, no issue there. 

 

If you want to disagree with me, fine, just be specific (I've been wrong many times before). Are you saying RIT ISN'T a one-plane swing with the body driving the pivot, or are you saying Malaska's "plane" at the top of his backswing IS parallel to the one at address? Or something else entirely?

 

I don't want to hijack this thread, I will say to the OP that Hardy's two-plane requires requires a lot of work on timing. I think it's also a bit more "body-driven" than Rinker's UC, Hardy isn't (IMO) as much "back to the target" as Rinker.

 

Good Luck.

If you think, handle in and clubhead out is an LOP, you need to re-read The Release. Malaska is demonstrating the hands moving on the inner circle while the club head moves to the outer circle with respect to Hardy's theory. It's very much the same.  RIT is a release categorization, not a swing plane at the top.  It's a body driven release because the hands move inside while the clubhead moves outside. Basically, the club face squares to the path at P6 and is driven through impact by rotation and not by a stall and roll.

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I am a two planer as well.  I don't really follow any instructor as most tend to favor the one plane swing lately.  I have seen Larry Rinker's videos, but it seems if you've seen one of his, you've seen them all.  I am always on the look out for successful upright swings.....Peter Uihlein won this past weekend, might want to look at a video of his swing.  Justin Thomas, Ian Poulter, Davis Love, Jason Day, Louis Oostheizen(sp?), Bubba Watson, Retief Goosen, John Senden, Woody Austin there is a cool video of DJ Trahan going thru every club in his bag (on youtube) and it is filmed from 2 angles.  The quality is not that great, but might be worth looking at.

Edited by exgolfpro
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22 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Hardy’s description of the two plane swing is rediculous. It’s just a marketing ploy to make his version of the so called one plane swing look good. 

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

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21 hours ago, exgolfpro said:

I am a two planer as well.  I don't really follow any instructor as most tend to favor the one plane swing lately.  I have seen Larry Rinker's videos, but it seems if you've seen one of his, you've seen them all.  I am always on the look out for successful upright swings.....Peter Uihlein won this past weekend, might want to look at a video of his swing.  Justin Thomas, Ian Poulter, Davis Love, Jason Day, Louis Oostheizen(sp?), Bubba Watson, Retief Goosen, John Senden, Woody Austin there is a cool video of DJ Trahan going thru every club in his bag (on youtube) and it is filmed from 2 angles.  The quality is not that great, but might be worth looking at.

 

Thanks for sending the list of players - it's super helpful to watch these players and have a swing that I can somewhat try to emulate that also fits the 2-plane narrative.

 

The one thing I do notice though is that there is almost no "purist" 2-planer per Hardy's guide. Nearly all of these 2-planer players I watch have their hips fully open at impact when Hardy mentioned that the downswing is really just a "rebound" and hips are almost square or just very slightly open. Also, most of these guys, aside from maybe Tom Watson, David Toms and Bubba have their club shaft at the top of the swing slightly laid off rather than at the target or across-the-line... which I thought was a big no no for the 2-planer?

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10 minutes ago, k4y said:

 

Thanks for sending the list of players - it's super helpful to watch these players and have a swing that I can somewhat try to emulate that also fits the 2-plane narrative.

 

The one thing I do notice though is that there is almost no "purist" 2-planer per Hardy's guide. Nearly all of these 2-planer players I watch have their hips fully open at impact when Hardy mentioned that the downswing is really just a "rebound" and hips are almost square or just very slightly open. Also, most of these guys, aside from maybe Tom Watson, David Toms and Bubba have their club shaft at the top of the swing slightly laid off rather than at the target or across-the-line... which I thought was a big no no for the 2-planer?

Don't worry about where the club points at the top.  Hardy's Two Plane swing just means that the lead arm is on a plane higher than the plane of the shoulders at the top of the swing when looking from DTL.  You'll see varying degrees of openness of hips depending on the player, but in general the hips are more square to the target line for an LOP player vs an RIT player with the shoulders being even more square to the line and less open than the hips.  See some photos below.

 

Louis

image.png.9bbb265022a77a821b3abc6abc52741a.png

Retief

image.png.9a1400aab4a8f2bc2a11143d1d9d15f9.png

 

Senden

image.png.a96e8011d5d27700f111a460cda4e736.png

 

Nicklaus

image.png.f29aa172182e104ebbb349bb23b4af38.png

 

Norman

image.png.a4697adeb4ac4379d906e05e0057acc5.png

Phil

image.png.aa3101907a2dce8e31badef8d9441e3a.png

Tom Watson

image.png.2ce2ae9168d92cbf53772c04ce5db626.png

Price

image.png.6328304f06e28d293c0a009b6e9becb8.png

Ernie Els

image.png.6378bcac6c7f465c929702c853fa411c.png

Stewart Cink

image.png.ffd114a235d306604174db22ceb5ad32.png

 

Steve Elkington

image.png.c1663036b59b78449e34570249f8f852.png

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, k4y said:

 

Thanks for sending the list of players - it's super helpful to watch these players and have a swing that I can somewhat try to emulate that also fits the 2-plane narrative.

 

The one thing I do notice though is that there is almost no "purist" 2-planer per Hardy's guide. Nearly all of these 2-planer players I watch have their hips fully open at impact when Hardy mentioned that the downswing is really just a "rebound" and hips are almost square or just very slightly open. Also, most of these guys, aside from maybe Tom Watson, David Toms and Bubba have their club shaft at the top of the swing slightly laid off rather than at the target or across-the-line... which I thought was a big no no for the 2-planer?

Don't get so caught up the the technical details.  Here is a very quick summary of what Jim Hardy told me several years ago.  A single plane swinger has his left (lead) arm pull in toward the body as he approaches impact (to square the face), while a 2 planer has the right arm move out away from the body to square the face.  If you watch a swing in slow motion from down the line, it is very easy to see the difference.

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2 hours ago, DShepley said:

Don't worry about where the club points at the top.  Hardy's Two Plane swing just means that the lead arm is on a plane higher than the plane of the shoulders at the top of the swing when looking from DTL.  You'll see varying degrees of openness of hips depending on the player, but in general the hips are more square to the target line for an LOP player vs an RIT player with the shoulders being even more square to the line and less open than the hips.  See some photos below.

 

 

This is awesome - thanks for sending me the still photos, it's super helpful.

 

Any idea on which golfer has the most "purist' 2-plane Hardy technique? I was looking at David Toms who had the most "pure" takeaway, hands lifting in front of the chest... but then on the down swing was super open and swung out to the left.

 

I guess as a newb, I'm just trying to find someone as pure as I can to emulate so I can refer to the books + a model swing.

 

image.png.ed7d039a6b10263c73cd25d7338db18a.png

 

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5 hours ago, exgolfpro said:

Don't get so caught up the the technical details.  Here is a very quick summary of what Jim Hardy told me several years ago.  A single plane swinger has his left (lead) arm pull in toward the body as he approaches impact (to square the face), while a 2 planer has the right arm move out away from the body to square the face.  If you watch a swing in slow motion from down the line, it is very easy to see the difference.

 

That's solid advice - I know I'm definitely getting a bit too technical but my only concern is that I don't really have any other reference point for a 2-plane swing.. and from what I understand, any deviation from the teachings can definitely work (most pros I see don't follow a pure hardy 2-plane swing), but might require some other compensation that I just don't know about.

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36 minutes ago, k4y said:

 

This is awesome - thanks for sending me the still photos, it's super helpful.

 

Any idea on which golfer has the most "purist' 2-plane Hardy technique? I was looking at David Toms who had the most "pure" takeaway, hands lifting in front of the chest... but then on the down swing was super open and swung out to the left.

 

I guess as a newb, I'm just trying to find someone as pure as I can to emulate so I can refer to the books + a model swing.

 

image.png.ed7d039a6b10263c73cd25d7338db18a.png

 

Do you have 'The Release, Golf's Moment of Truth'? Or The Release video? If not, pick them up and follow the fundamentals for the LOP release style.  Don't get caught up in chasing the most pure model.  There is no 'most correct' as everyones body and intentions are slightly different.   Find the elements that work for you inside the fundamentals of the Two Plane / LOP teachings and let the ball flight be the answer and not 'how your swing looks, or how you think it should look'.  Jim's teaching has evolved somewhat and the teachings in 'The Release' are a great compliment. 

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