Is this what golf was like in the 90s?

[Christosterone]

Jack bursted on the pro scene in 1960

Tiger in 1997

37 YEARS1!

 

Sooooooo, the next jack/tiger was born between 2000 and 2009...

 

Nicklaus and Woods were once-in-a-generation players...

The next Tiger/Jack will be along in 2034 AD

until then, this game is still awesome... 

 

-chris

Edited April 20, 2021 by Christosterone

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

Jack would not agree.. he was playing against guys who knew how to win the big ones, and did so regularly..

 

its more

 

1. dont have to be very good to make a nice living. One major, youre set for life

 

2. the 460 has removed all skill from the tee shot. Its a non event. 

 

3. the rest of the game has been dumbed down. Not enough variety of clubs on approach shots, less opportunity for the best to separate themselves 

They didn't know how to win any better, it's simple probability that wins are more concentrated when less people have a real shot of winning.

 

A team winning a title when the NBA had 8 teams doesn't mean the same thing as when it has 30. The teams of 8 didn't know how to win more than the 30, there is simply less competition. 

[dlygrisse]

2 minutes ago, Christosterone said:

 

The next great player will probably be a cyborg, with a microchip implanted in it's brain, giving him/her/they a built in GPS, Laser Rangefinder eyes, sponsored by Bushnell, Chris Cuomo swing science built into it's DNA, and genetic modifications that allow his/her/they's body to before at peak performance not matter the weather conditions and climate.  He/her/they/it will have nano tech driving swing patterns, and will receive constant lessons through the matrix every minute of it's life.  This will all go well until it crashes it's travel pod while overdosing on silicon based stimulants and depressants that alter your neuro pathways.  Many will think the only cure is to stream old videos of Butch Harmon discussing the golf swing and telling stories of Tiger, Jack and Ben Hogan.  

[dlygrisse]

6 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

They didn't know how to win any better, it's simple probability that wins are more concentrated when less people have a real shot of winning.

 

A team winning a title when the NBA had 8 teams doesn't mean the same thing as when it has 30. The teams of 8 didn't know how to win more than the 30, there is simply less competition. 

Are there really more than 6 teams that have a legit shot at winning the NBA title in any given year?  It's usually probably more like 4.  

 

As Jack once said, "winning breeds winning"  if you learn to win at an early age, and win often you will continue to build on that as your career progresses.  Tiger is a perfect example, he won everything as a junior and if his body didn't break down he would still be winning.  

[cleverprimate24]

I firmly disagree with this take. Saying Morikawa in the Top 5 is an indictment of the current talent pool, is laughable.

 

The current crop of young players is incredible. I think the fact that there is no dominant player isn't a knock on the modern stars, but a product of the depth of the tour today. 

 

There are studs all the way to #15th in the OGWR. Even past 15th, you've got Speith, Scheffler, Zalatoris, Berger, Sunjae, Cam Smith are all clawing their way to the upper crust.

 

Plus if Matt Wolff figures it out and gets back to his previous form that's another force to deal with. 

[cleverprimate24]

12 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

It seems we are in a period of golf with no great players.

 

I mean, there’s some really good players. But nobody who’s “the man” or even anything close. We got like cooky Bryson, watered down Rory, nervous JT, Duh DJ.

 

We got Xander at #5 in the world 🤣. In front of him got CW and Rahmbo. Not a lot of meat on that #3-#5 bone. 
 

Let’s face it. There’s nobody. 
 

You had Jack, Watson picked it up for a while then this period of no greats. Then Tiger. Then Rory and Spieth had some really great play. 
 

Now, some good golf to see for sure but seems half the time the “best” players can’t get out of their own way. 
 

Is this what golf was like in the late 80s and 90s? 

 

I firmly disagree with this take. Saying Morikawa in the Top 5 is an indictment of the current talent pool, is laughable.

 

 

 

The current crop of young players is incredible. I think the fact that there is no dominant player isn't a knock on the modern stars, but a product of the depth of the tour today. 

 

 

 

There are studs all the way to #15th in the OGWR. Even past 15th, you've got Speith, Scheffler, Zalatoris, Berger, Sunjae, Cam Smith are all clawing their way to the upper crust.

 

 

 

Plus if Matt Wolff figures it out and gets back to his previous form that's another force to deal with. 

[dlygrisse]

2 minutes ago, cleverprimate24 said:

I firmly disagree with this take. Saying Morikawa in the Top 5 is an indictment of the current talent pool, is laughable.

 

The current crop of young players is incredible. I think the fact that there is no dominant player isn't a knock on the modern stars, but a product of the depth of the tour today. 

 

There are studs all the way to #15th in the OGWR. Even past 15th, you've got Speith, Scheffler, Zalatoris, Berger, Sunjae, Cam Smith are all clawing their way to the upper crust.

 

Plus if Matt Wolff figures it out and gets back to his previous form that's another force to deal with. 

Morikawa is an elite level ball striker in any era, but a inconsistent putter at best, with below average short game skills.  Every era has had players like him, really the only difference between the 90's and now vs. the 70's and the 2000's is a lack of a dominant player.  There is no denying the talent level today, but you need more than talent to win, and being dominant is completely mental at a high level where these guys are.  At some point a very talented player will come along and be mentally stronger than everyone else, be totally focused, be in control of all aspects of his game and dominate again.  

 

Every single one of these modern talented players lacks that mental edge or lacks a certain skill set to dominate.  

[bscinstnct]

5 minutes ago, cleverprimate24 said:

I firmly disagree with this take. Saying Morikawa in the Top 5 is an indictment of the current talent pool, is laughable.

 

The current crop of young players is incredible. I think the fact that there is no dominant player isn't a knock on the modern stars, but a product of the depth of the tour today. 

 

There are studs all the way to #15th in the OGWR. Even past 15th, you've got Speith, Scheffler, Zalatoris, Berger, Sunjae, Cam Smith are all clawing their way to the upper crust.

 

Plus if Matt Wolff figures it out and gets back to his previous form that's another force to deal with. 

 

Morikawa?!

 

43 year old Tiger was #5 in 2019.

 

And he had like no knees, a back screwed together with...screws, and a total shadow of his skills in his prime. 

 

Thats an indictment, trial, and mockery of the “incredible crop of young players” ; )

 

 

[tatertot]

My Dad could beat up your Dad.

[Old Tom Morris]

Golf was great before Tiger Woods, with Tiger Woods, and will be great without Tiger Woods.

[cleverprimate24]

6 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Morikawa?!

 

43 year old Tiger was #5 in 2019.

 

And he had like no knees, a back screwed together with...screws, and a total shadow of his skills in his prime. 

 

Thats an indictment, trial, and mockery of the “incredible crop of young players” ; )

 

 

I just looked back that the rankings list and about half of the guys I'm referencing weren't even pro yet or had just made the tour. 

 

Tiger peaked at #5 after winning the Master's and slowly slid down the list as the summer went along. I don't think the GOAT having one last magical major victory means the current guys aren't special. 

[JaNelson38]

This is a ridiculous premise.  The Tour is as deep now as it has ever been.  

 

Ever.

 

We don't have a "dominant" player in today's game because everyone is that damn good.  Just because we don't seem to have a generational player like Jack or Tiger in amongst the current crop of Tour guys doesn't mean he isnt out there or could develop into one -  Collin Morikawa is only 24 for crying out loud.

23 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Morikawa?!

 

43 year old Tiger was #5 in 2019.

 

And he had like no knees, a back screwed together with...screws, and a total shadow of his skills in his prime. 

 

Thats an indictment, trial, and mockery of the “incredible crop of young players” ; )

 

 

 

Steve Stricker was #2 in the world back around 2011 in his mid-40's.  Yet nobody assumed he was actually the second-best golfer in the world.

 

The OWGR is in many ways a sham.  Will Zalatoris went from like in the 2000's in the rankings to the top 50 and he hasn't even won a PGA Tour event.

[cleverprimate24]

25 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Morikawa is an elite level ball striker in any era, but a inconsistent putter at best, with below average short game skills.  Every era has had players like him, really the only difference between the 90's and now vs. the 70's and the 2000's is a lack of a dominant player.  There is no denying the talent level today, but you need more than talent to win, and being dominant is completely mental at a high level where these guys are.  At some point a very talented player will come along and be mentally stronger than everyone else, be totally focused, be in control of all aspects of his game and dominate again.  

 

Every single one of these modern talented players lacks that mental edge or lacks a certain skill set to dominate.  

 

Yeah you make great points, I'm not saying Morikawa is Tiger's level or anything.

 

Basically, any time Colin's putter gets hot or is even average he's contending or winning that week. I believe he can become a more consistent putter and solidify himself as the best in the world at some point. I'm not sure it will happen, but he shows flashes of that capability. 

 

I'm less worried about his average short game play, since he's so exceptional tee to green. 

[nvr3putt]

Bring back balata balls.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, tiderider said:

Yep. Every few years someone would win 4 times, plus a major ... but it was a different person all the time, for the most part ... watson in the early 80s, norman in the latter years, to some extent ... not even sure faldo got to #1, tho he won 6 majors and 40 tournaments over a 20 year span ... 

 

and anyone who thinks prime tiger wouldn't be dominating today doesn't know much about golf ... a 68 is a 68, regardless when it occurs ... 

 

 

Nick = 97 weeks!  I had to look it up!

[bscinstnct]

24 minutes ago, cleverprimate24 said:

I just looked back that the rankings list and about half of the guys I'm referencing weren't even pro yet or had just made the tour. 

 

Tiger peaked at #5 after winning the Master's and slowly slid down the list as the summer went along. I don't think the GOAT having one last magical major victory means the current guys aren't special. 

 

So, TW can get to #5 at 43 years old in 2019 against BK, DJ, Rahmbo, JT, and BD

 

But TW 1.0 would not completely eviscerate  Colin Morikawa, Willy Z, and Cam Smith?

[kmay__]

A couple wins and a couple endorsements nowadays and your a super famous millionaire. Gotta be alot harder to maintain that drive to be great when 2 successful years is enough to retire in your 20s and cruise through the rest of your life. Plus it seems as they marry and settle down there grind is gone. My view on it at least. 

 

But it was cool to see when Tiger returned, that he could still compete and beat all these current guys on tour. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by kmay__

[m d g]

One word: Pleats.

[dlygrisse]

30 minutes ago, cleverprimate24 said:

 

Yeah you make great points, I'm not saying Morikawa is Tiger's level or anything.

 

Basically, any time Colin's putter gets hot or is even average he's contending or winning that week. I believe he can become a more consistent putter and solidify himself as the best in the world at some point. I'm not sure it will happen, but he shows flashes of that capability. 

 

I'm less worried about his average short game play, since he's so exceptional tee to green. 

Agreed, there is only one way he wins, his ball striking has to be on, and his putter has to be hot...for him.  Tiger could win multiple ways, that's why he dominated.  Rory is similar to Colin in many regards, except he has more speed, so he can bomb it and have more short irons.  His putter doesn't have to get quite as hot.  

 

Colin will never dominate for a long period of time, he just doesn't have the skill set to do so, if you don't have a really good putter and short game by now on tour you never will, sure it can improve, but history shots that it will never be high level like Tiger was.  

[cleverprimate24]

3 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

So, TW can get to #5 at 43 years old in 2019 against BK, DJ, Rahmbo, JT, and BD

 

But TW 1.0 would not completely eviscerate  Colin Morikawa, Willy Z, and Cam Smith?

 

I never said prime Tiger wouldn't be the best player in the world today. I absolutely think we would be, and would be dominant, but I think the pack would be significantly closer than most of his contemporaries were.

 

Prime Phil, the short window of elite Duval, and Vijay would be near the top today too, but probably somewhere in the upper tier pack, which is much deeper than in the early 2000's. 

 

Just to fact-check your statement, he didn't pass DJ, BK, or Rory(obviously he's struggling now, but could regain form). He did pass JT for a couple weeks, while staying ahead of Rahm and Bryson for a couple months.

 

The Master's is friendly tournament for aging veterans. Tiger is the goat and I'm not taking anything away from that historic win, but it definitely was the main reason for his climb into the top 5 that year. 

 

You're ignoring Hovland, & Scheffler. Plus several of the others were in their first couple of professional years too. Spieth was beginning his trek into the wilderness, but should be a force again going forward. 

 

 

[m d g]

39 minutes ago, nvr3putt said:

Bring back balata balls.

I would LOVE to see a throwback tournament with the same prize money as a normal tournament.

 

The only catch? All equipment (including golf balls) must only be what was on the legal list as of 1990...or pick a date.

 

Small-head drivers, steel shafts, balata, etc.

 

Of course, the tees would be moved up as appropriate.

 

The winner would be awarded the Tin Cup : )

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

Are there really more than 6 teams that have a legit shot at winning the NBA title in any given year?  It's usually probably more like 4.  

 

As Jack once said, "winning breeds winning"  if you learn to win at an early age, and win often you will continue to build on that as your career progresses.  Tiger is a perfect example, he won everything as a junior and if his body didn't break down he would still be winning.  

The point is more teams have a shot now than when there are only 8, discussions about current NBA parity aside. More people who have a shot to win = more competition. There is a reason the celtics and lakers won a million championships in the 40s 50s and 60s when there were 8-9 teams in the NBA and then abrupty fell off in terms of title % as the league expanded. The celtics won like 9/10 titles in the 60s. Do we really think any team in modern NBA will ever do that? It's essentially impossible. Does that mean they don't know how to win as well as that celtics team, or they just face stiffer and more competition? 

 

I don't really know what learning to win means. It's about the least strokes. Does matsuyama know how to win better than zalatoris? No he just took one less shot. 

 

These things are self-fulfilling prophecies used for old dudes to poopoo young guys. "Back in my day" "kids these days". Tiger won because he was the best at golf. 

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

Morikawa is an elite level ball striker in any era, but a inconsistent putter at best, with below average short game skills.  Every era has had players like him, really the only difference between the 90's and now vs. the 70's and the 2000's is a lack of a dominant player.  There is no denying the talent level today, but you need more than talent to win, and being dominant is completely mental at a high level where these guys are.  At some point a very talented player will come along and be mentally stronger than everyone else, be totally focused, be in control of all aspects of his game and dominate again.  

 

Every single one of these modern talented players lacks that mental edge or lacks a certain skill set to dominate.  

I'm not really sure this mental edge thing exists, but if you believe that motivation results in the fields constantly being raised, players mental games would continually improve over time and thus it would be more difficult to separate yourself relative to the pack. 

[StudentGolfer4]

The interesting part of this conversation is when you say dominant player it’s always in comparison to everyone else. If Tiger and Jack were both in their prime from 1965-1980 you wouldn’t have a dominant player. You would have had 2 clearly better than the rest but 1 wouldn’t have dominated. 
 

Switching sports, but take Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed. All 3 won the triple crown in the 70s. If they all decided to go for it in 1975 chances are you wouldn’t have heard of at least 2 or possibly 3 of these horses because there never would have been a triple crown winner. 
 

Dominance is based on the other competitors just as much as the person who is said to be dominant. 

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, cleverprimate24 said:

 

I never said prime Tiger wouldn't be the best player in the world today. I absolutely think we would be, and would be dominant, but I think the pack would be significantly closer than most of his contemporaries were.

 

Prime Phil, the short window of elite Duval, and Vijay would be near the top today too, but probably somewhere in the upper tier pack, which is much deeper than in the early 2000's. 

 

Just to fact-check your statement, he didn't pass DJ, BK, or Rory(obviously he's struggling now, but could regain form). He did pass JT for a couple weeks, while staying ahead of Rahm and Bryson for a couple months.

 

The Master's is friendly tournament for aging veterans. Tiger is the goat and I'm not taking anything away from that historic win, but it definitely was the main reason for his climb into the top 5 that year. 

 

You're ignoring Hovland, & Scheffler. Plus several of the others were in their first couple of professional years too. Spieth was beginning his trek into the wilderness, but should be a force again going forward. 

 

 

 

“The Master's is friendly tournament for aging veterans“

 

Yeah, I guess Rory just needs to get older then.

 

🤣

All good, cp, we are on the same page. TW was at #12 before he beat all the young guns at Augusta. He basically came from like #2000 and did that all in a year and a half against the supposed deepest fields ever. 

 

 

[golfer929]

3 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Jack would not agree.. he was playing against guys who knew how to win the big ones, and did so regularly..

 

its more

 

1. dont have to be very good to make a nice living. One major, youre set for life

 

2. the 460 has removed all skill from the tee shot. Its a non event. 

 

3. the rest of the game has been dumbed down. Not enough variety of clubs on approach shots, less opportunity for the best to separate themselves 

1. You don't have to be very good

2. Be good enough to win a major

 

Pick one

[cleverprimate24]

11 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Agreed, there is only one way he wins, his ball striking has to be on, and his putter has to be hot...for him.  Tiger could win multiple ways, that's why he dominated.  Rory is similar to Colin in many regards, except he has more speed, so he can bomb it and have more short irons.  His putter doesn't have to get quite as hot.  

 

Colin will never dominate for a long period of time, he just doesn't have the skill set to do so, if you don't have a really good putter and short game by now on tour you never will, sure it can improve, but history shots that it will never be high level like Tiger was.  

 

Yeah, I wouldn't never put Colin in the same breath as Tiger, he won at a clip unparalleled even by Nicklaus. He won significantly more regular tournaments and won majors at a faster pace at his peak. Tigers off-course issues and injuries obviously derailed the seemingly inevitable overtaking of Nicklaus total major record. 

 

Colin's ballstriking is historically good and "IF" he figures out the flatstick he will probably be a Hall of Fame caliber player. I could definitely see him winning several more Majors. I think it's probably just as likely he wins 4 or more Majors as it is he never gets a second one. 

 

[Bad9]

13 hours ago, BobMorris said:

I personally think the Tour is far too deep these days for someone to be able to clearly separate themselves from the pack for an extended period of time.

That's what they said in the 80's and 90's before Tiger came along.

[ohioglfr]

Adding to the mix regarding players of the '90's era was the fact that it was probably the largest equipment transition since steel shafts replaced hickory.  A few guys were still playing persimmon woods and playing steel shafts in drivers.  Courses played shorter before the technology explosion.  I admire Bryson but guys like him seem to be turning the game into a long drive competition.  I miss that era dearly.  I'd like to have seen Seve live on to compete in the Champions Tour.  

[cleverprimate24]

16 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

“The Master's is friendly tournament for aging veterans“

 

Yeah, I guess Rory just needs to get older then.

 

🤣

All good, cp, we are on the same page. TW was at #12 before he beat all the young guns at Augusta. He basically came from like #2000 and did that all in a year and a half against the supposed deepest fields ever. 

 

 

Tiger is 1 of 7, over 40yr old Master's Champions. All but Mark O'Meara we're all time greats, so it's not unheard of for one to get hot and have a magical weekend at Augusta. There's been plenty more near misses.

 

Tiger's the goat, I don't think one hot year over 40 for him negates the strengths of a whole era. Especially, when most of the best ones haven't even hit their prime yet. 

 

I can't speak for Rory, he's got a long way to go before he is sniffing major victories again. Though, he's still younger than Phil when he won his first Major, and green jacket simultaneously.