Langford & Moreau

[Phreddy]

There is a thread already started on here about the merits of the Lawsonia Links course which is a Langford & Moreau design.  Langford & Moreau seemed to have worked largely in the midwest with the exception of 3 courses in Florida.  They did something like 17 courses in Illinois.  And it would appear the lion's share of their work was in Illinois.  I have only played three of their courses that I know about.  Lawsonia, Ozaukee Country Club (excellent) and the front 9 of West Bend Country Club with it's grass bunkers (also excellent).  You don't often hear about this tandem the way you hear about the big names of the 1920's:  Seth Raynor, Dr. Mackenzie, CB MacDonald.....

 

They were the opposite of Coore & Crenshaw.  They never saw a steam shovel they didn't l like and enjoyed moving earth.  Have you played their courses and what do you think?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langford_(golf)

 

Phred

[games]

The only bad thing I’ve ever heard about Spring Valley is that it’s too short.  Passed it 100 times when I lived there, and never played it.

Edited April 29, 2021 by games
Meant to reference Spring Valley

[Argonne69]

Kankakee Elks is a gem. Wonderful hilly design with tough greens. It's a bargain, too, given the distance from the city.

 

Winnetka? Ugh. Unfortunately they didn't have much to work with given that the area is a flood plain. A few interesting holes, but otherwise an uninspiring design and poor conditions. 

 

Marquette Park is not bad for a 9 hole muni. It tends to get forgotten given that the Marovitz 9 hole course sits on the lakefront.

 

The original Harrision Hills 9 is pretty sweet. The newer 9 holes don't quite cut it.

 

[TBone0576]

I've played Spring Valley a couple of times, and honestly the last few times have been early in the spring because they are generally the first course to open in far SE Wisconsin.   A lot of rolling hills but not a lot of elevation change overall.  A couple of blind tee shots from what I remember.  If they were to take it private I bet they could do wonders with it but as a public course it is just something to play to mix things up in my opinion.  

[Schley]

Kankakee Elks is a wonderful course with the greens the standout. They need to take a chainsaw to some trees, but the layout is very good. Not many bunkers either so makes for a quick round typically. Price being an hour south of Chicago is a steal.

 

Don't forget about the 9 hole Culver Academy course if you can get on. I don't understand the criticism of Lawsonia Links at all. Should be easy to love for the greens alone, granted Wisconsin golf has been great for new development the last 20 years or so, but don't forget about Lawsonia.

[ode]

Anyone played Maxwelton GC in IN?  

 

Kankakee Elks is on the list to get to this spring or fall.....wondering about continuing the journey to include Maxwelton too!

 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by ode

[ode]

On 4/27/2021 at 6:18 PM, games said:

The only bad thing I’ve ever heard about Spring Valley is that it’s too short.  Passed it 100 times when I lived there, and never played it.

6400+ par 70.....it's no slouch.  Although they don't use the back tee boxes on #6 (I think it's 6, where they have a tee box out into the water a little bit).  Course is not in the best condition but a very fun layout.  Not a huge fan of #9 and #18 green, but do enjoy those holes otherwise.

Edited April 30, 2021 by ode

[LeftyBobby]

On 4/27/2021 at 10:56 AM, Phreddy said:

There is a thread already started on here about the merits of the Lawsonia Links course which is a Langford & Moreau design.  Langford & Moreau seemed to have worked largely in the midwest with the exception of 3 courses in Florida.  They did something like 17 courses in Illinois.  And it would appear the lion's share of their work was in Illinois.  I have only played three of their courses that I know about.  Lawsonia, Ozaukee Country Club (excellent) and the front 9 of West Bend Country Club with it's grass bunkers (also excellent).  You don't often hear about this tandem the way you hear about the big names of the 1920's:  Seth Raynor, Dr. Mackenzie, CB MacDonald.....

 

They were the opposite of Coore & Crenshaw.  They never saw a steam shovel they didn't l like and enjoyed moving earth.  Have you played their courses and what do you think?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langford_(golf)

 

Phred

I had no idea they built as many courses as they did! In my ignorance, I only assumed they were local to WI. I've played all 4 of their WI courses and really enjoyed each of them. Fun fact about Spring Valley, I've probably played there the most (30+ rounds I would guess) but all have been as a junior and most have been when it's less than 40 degrees out since they were the only course open. I remember they did not care about frost lol. They'd let people out with a heavy frost. I'm not sure if they still do that, but even at the time I couldn't believe they let us go out. 

[games]

2 hours ago, ode said:

Anyone played Maxwelton GC in IN?  

 

Kankakee Elks is on the list to get to this spring or fall.....wondering about continuing the journey to include Maxwelton too!

 

 

If it's the course I'm thinking of, it sits on the river as you pass through Kankakee on the Interstate.  It looks really well maintained, from the highway at least.

[Argonne69]

1 hour ago, games said:

If it's the course I'm thinking of, it sits on the river as you pass through Kankakee on the Interstate.  It looks really well maintained, from the highway at least.

 

No, Kankakee Elks is a mile east of I-57, and can't be seen from the highway. You're thinking of Kankakee Country Club.

 

[ode]

I was asking about Maxwelton in IN...

[eagle2838]

Played Kankakee Elks for the first time in a CDGA event this week, I'd agree it's a very fun course. Greens were in nice shape and the contours to them were so cool. Definitely some tough pin locations and slopes out there! I'd definitely play it again, and it's worth the trip down from the Chicago area. 

[userpick21]

On 4/30/2021 at 1:28 PM, ode said:

I was asking about Maxwelton in IN...

 

I had been a member at Maxwelton for several years before we moved a little too far away.  It's a fairly tight, small-ish golf course (back tees are maybe 6600) that is very tree-lined now.  You can occasionally see the Langord come out in it (several blind tee shots, some small scale elevation changes, interesting green contours), but it's probably more of a curiosity than a pristine example of a Langford, Although the previous owner once told me that the course was mostly intact from when he came there in the 50s or 60s (except for the trees).  It's also built on clay, so it doesn't usually play firm/fast. 

 

I think if you're going in expecting a hidden gem, you'll probably be mostly disappointed.  If you're going in as someone who is interested in Langford, you'll be able to spot some familiar features.

 

Living nearby, there weren't a lot of options, so I didn't join knowing it had a notable architect, but having played a few nice Langford's now definitely added some appreciation to the course.

[blakehall]

The Langford & Moreau 9 on the Heritage course in Marquette are really good holes too. It’s a shame they didn’t get to do the full 18 up there. If they had It probably would’ve been enough to get me to finally commit to a National membership there.

[ldchristopher]

Kankakee Elks is fun. A very short front and a lengthy back with plenty of mature trees and a cheap daily rate. 
Spring Valley is a tough par 70 with some brutal grass bunkers but no sand on the property. Rough edges and they’re not lying when they say it hasn’t been touched up once. 
Harrison Hills’ Langford/Moreau nine is good, as I recall (I’ve only played there once); the Tim Liddy nine tried to blend in but basically he did the best he could with the property. 
Winnetka is a flood plain that needs to do some tree trimming. It has some variety and it’s good during a dry stretch but overpriced solely based on location. 
LaGrange CC has been updated so many times it only feels like a L/M course on a few holes (number 5, for instance; a tight par 5 with a well-guarded roller coaster green). But the latest reno they did removed some trees and deepened the bunkers to make it feel more like the original layout. It’s just so, so, so flat. 
Butterfield CC is very good. Again, it’s been updated a bunch of times but the white sand bunkers are phenomenal. They chew wedges up but, hey, country clubs can just sell members new Vokeys every year. It’s got more elevation change than a lot of western suburban courses in Chicago but that doesn’t say a lot. It was updated in the last 10 years to improve the drainage and they claim they have a 7700 yard set-up that can host a tournament. Given that the longest combo there is a shade over 6700 yards, I want to see that to believe it. But the course is great. 
Lawsonia has its reputation but I’m not wowed by the property. Some excellent holes in there no doubt and the green complexes are obviously unique and well-maintained. Worth the trip if you’ve never played it or like L/M designs. 

[zer0]

this thread makes me sad that we sold our home in Green Lake a couple years ago.  Had to give up my Lawsonia membership. 😭

[Celebros]

I've only played Clovernook Country Club in Cincinnati, OH, but thought it was a solid but aging track with all mid-century tree plantings now obscuring a lot of the terrain/layout and leading to some conditioning issues. 

 

If it received a proper restoration, I think it garner a lot more attention.

[ldchristopher]

On 6/27/2022 at 4:52 PM, Celebros said:

I've only played Clovernook Country Club in Cincinnati, OH, but thought it was a solid but aging track with all mid-century tree plantings now obscuring a lot of the terrain/layout and leading to some conditioning issues. 

 

If it received a proper restoration, I think it garner a lot more attention.

That’s the case with a lot of Langford courses that are open to the public. Spring Valley would be a vastly different course and the turf would be in much better shape with tree removal and more sun exposure. Same with Kankakee Elks. 

[El Gringo]

I am earning my L&M badge in a week or so...assuming my sticks arrive. As part of big trip, big for me anyway, I am playing Lawsonia and Culver Academies. Both have been very high on my bucket list for some time now. I tried to fit in Kankakee, but it's not gonna work. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by El Gringo

[StudentGolfer4]

16 hours ago, El Gringo said:

I am earning my L&M badge in a week or so...assuming my sticks arrive. As part of big trip, big for me anyway, I am playing Lawsonia and Culver Academies. Both have been very high on my bucket list for some time now. I tried to fit in Kankakee, but it's not gonna work. 

Haven’t played lawsonia but Culver is absolutely phenomenal 

[sleuth]

I've played Lawsonia Links, Wakonda CC (IA), Milburn CC (KC), and Happy Hollow CC (Omaha). They're all good and have their own character, for sure. But do remember these courses will not resemble the original design. They all have been renovated, some multiple times, since the original design 100years ago.

 

They're all good and maintain a lot of the old school golf architecture with modern updates. I've heard stories about Wakonda CC having tiny postage stamp greens that were surrounded by large towering pines. The course now uses modern green complexes, modern bunker designs, widened fairways, but still displays the old school defenses of blind shots into elevated greens. 

 

I'd actually like to play an original Langford & Moreau design. It's a long shot -- anyone know of any?

[Phreddy]

4 hours ago, sleuth said:

I've played Lawsonia Links, Wakonda CC (IA), Milburn CC (KC), and Happy Hollow CC (Omaha). They're all good and have their own character, for sure. But do remember these courses will not resemble the original design. They all have been renovated, some multiple times, since the original design 100years ago.

 

They're all good and maintain a lot of the old school golf architecture with modern updates. I've heard stories about Wakonda CC having tiny postage stamp greens that were surrounded by large towering pines. The course now uses modern green complexes, modern bunker designs, widened fairways, but still displays the old school defenses of blind shots into elevated greens. 

 

I'd actually like to play an original Langford & Moreau design. It's a long shot -- anyone know of any?

If you can get on, Ozaukee Country Club in Mequon, WI just north of Milwaukee it is an outstanding L&M course.  It is a par 70 with some of the finest (hardest) fastest greens you will putt.  I am not a fan of the par 3 9th hole, but the other par 3's are outstanding. It opened in 1922 and hosted the 1929 Western Open won by Tommy Armour.

[geochitown]

On 8/15/2022 at 1:57 PM, sleuth said:

I've played Lawsonia Links, Wakonda CC (IA), Milburn CC (KC), and Happy Hollow CC (Omaha). They're all good and have their own character, for sure. But do remember these courses will not resemble the original design. They all have been renovated, some multiple times, since the original design 100years ago.

 

They're all good and maintain a lot of the old school golf architecture with modern updates. I've heard stories about Wakonda CC having tiny postage stamp greens that were surrounded by large towering pines. The course now uses modern green complexes, modern bunker designs, widened fairways, but still displays the old school defenses of blind shots into elevated greens. 

 

I'd actually like to play an original Langford & Moreau design. It's a long shot -- anyone know of any?

Spring Valley CC in Salem, WI and Kankakee Elks have lots of the original designs in them, but have misguided tree plantings and lost some lmowung lines and greens have shrunk

 

ill be playing Kankakee Elks for the first time this weekend, and it’s supposed to have some amazing L&M greens

 

front 9 of West Bend is supposed to be pretty amazing as is the Marquette GC heritage course 

 

[geochitown]

Man, I had a blast playing Kankakee Elks this past Saturday!!!!!’n

 

The greens are so good. 
 

hopefully tree removal can happen some day but I, for I’ve, plan to make the 100 mile trip from my house down there at least once per year 

[El Gringo]

On 8/15/2022 at 12:43 AM, StudentGolfer4 said:

Haven’t played lawsonia but Culver is absolutely phenomenal 

You aren't wrong. Lawsonia has nothing over Culver. I would go back to both, but especially Culver. 

[Chanceman]

On 2/25/2023 at 7:18 PM, El Gringo said:

You aren't wrong. Lawsonia has nothing over Culver. I would go back to both, but especially Culver. 

Is Culver receptive to play by visitors? Approx cost? Is it set up to play twice with second tee boxes? We could combine with our visit to The Warren course next year.

[El Gringo]

8 hours ago, Chanceman said:

Is Culver receptive to play by visitors? Approx cost? Is it set up to play twice with second tee boxes? We could combine with our visit to The Warren course next year.

Culver is for students, guests and alumni. You would need special permission from someone to play.