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My partner and I are playing in a multi-club fourball tournament.  We were being hosted at another club and had not previously met our opponents.  One of our opponents was a +3.8 so we were all playing off of him. 

 

Stroke situation:

Opponent 1 - 0

Opponent 2 - 5

Partner - 10

Me - 11

 

After 18 the match was tied.  We won the last hole so our opponents asked if we wanted to go off 1 or 10.  He said it was our choice since we had the tee box.  Hole 1 was the #3 hole so everyone popped.  Hole 10 had no strokes.  We obviously chose 1.  While on the tee our opponent said "Since it is getting dark, lets play 1, 8,9 so we stay close to the clubhouse".    Guess what, hole #2 was #7 so both we both got shots and our opponents got none.  No strokes on 8 or 9.  We hit our balls on 1 and then as we were walking my partner and I thought, "Wait, what?  How can they choose?".  We grumbled for a while and told ourselves we would sort it out after the first hole.  Fortunately we won that hole and won the match and did not have to address it.

 

Disclaimer:  Format of the tournament is "host's choice", meaning host picks course, tees, covid rules, etc.

 

Is there a default official rule on how to play extra holes?  Or is it supposed to be figured out before the match?  Does the team that has the tee box get to choose?  Obviously the tour does not go to hole 1 and will usually play 18, 18, 16, 17, 18 or some other rotation. 

 

What is the correct procedure?

 

 

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Here is Rule 3.2a(4) (4) Extending a Tied Match. If a match is tied after the final hole: The match is extended one hole at a time until there is a winner. See Rule 5.1 (an extended match is

If you’re getting, say, 17 strokes, I assure you that you are better off playing any of the holes in which you get a stroke vs. having to play the #18 handicap hole with no strokes against an opponent

It's up to the committee in charge to decide. The Tour is different, it is stroke play.  In the Dell Match Play, they go to hole 1, 2, 3 .... as required.  Also, they are not worried about who ge

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6 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

My partner and I are playing in a multi-club fourball tournament.  We were being hosted at another club and had not previously met our opponents.  One of our opponents was a +3.8 so we were all playing off of him. 

 

Stroke situation:

Opponent 1 - 0

Opponent 2 - 5

Partner - 10

Me - 11

 

After 18 the match was tied.  We won the last hole so our opponents asked if we wanted to go off 1 or 10.  He said it was our choice since we had the tee box.  Hole 1 was the #3 hole so everyone popped.  Hole 10 had no strokes.  We obviously chose 1.  While on the tee our opponent said "Since it is getting dark, lets play 1, 8,9 so we stay close to the clubhouse".    Guess what, hole #2 was #7 so both we both got shots and our opponents got none.  No strokes on 8 or 9.  We hit our balls on 1 and then as we were walking my partner and I thought, "Wait, what?  How can they choose?".  We grumbled for a while and told ourselves we would sort it out after the first hole.  Fortunately we won that hole and won the match and did not have to address it.

 

Disclaimer:  Format of the tournament is "host's choice", meaning host picks course, tees, covid rules, etc.

 

Is there a default official rule on how to play extra holes?  Or is it supposed to be figured out before the match?  Does the team that has the tee box get to choose?  Obviously the tour does not go to hole 1 and will usually play 18, 18, 16, 17, 18 or some other rotation. 

 

What is the correct procedure?

 

 

It's up to the committee in charge to decide.

The Tour is different, it is stroke play.  In the Dell Match Play, they go to hole 1, 2, 3 .... as required.  Also, they are not worried about who gets strokes.

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To my knowledge there is no "universal rule" regarding what hole a playoff has to start on. It's always decided by the tournament committee beforehand. 

 

In your case, you said that the "format of the tournament is host's choice, meaning host picks course, tees, covid rules, etc.". Therefore, it sounds like you got off easy by them (the hosts) letting you pick the hole to start on. They could have easily said let's play #8 repeatedly until we have a winner and you wouldn't have gotten any shots.

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I agree with Rogolf, and will add that it's completely inappropriate to have the players decide which holes, strokes or no strokes, should define the important issue of an extended match. But at least you were correct that strokes during the playoff should be allocated as they had been during the first 18 holes. 

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Thank you for the replies.  The committee consists of one person who has put this together for fun.  While I don't want to diminish the importance of the committee, this is one person running an event for fun.  There is no prize or winnings.  There is no tournament booklet with details of local rules for each course, etc.  Should there be?  Probably, but there is not and that is just the reality. 

 

So it sounds like there is no default rule for an extended match.  I guess I was expecting one.  IMO it should be what @rogolfsaid, start on 1 and keep going.  Mostly for the the logistics.  This is a schedule-your-own match and the easiest place to squeeze back into the rotation is on the first hole, not trying to squeeze back to 10 or 18 or 5 during a busy Saturday afternoon with a packed tee sheet. 

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The strokes/no strokes thing seems to resolve itself, no? Assuming you buy into the way player and course handicaps are determined, then all holes should be basically equivalent after stroke adjustments are applied. 

 

If you're playing a hole where no one gets any strokes, that implies that you all have an equal chance at a par. Sure, the better player probably has a better chance at a birdie, but the handicap system is based around the odds of getting a par (at least as I understand it). 

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10 minutes ago, me05501 said:

The strokes/no strokes thing seems to resolve itself, no? Assuming you buy into the way player and course handicaps are determined, then all holes should be basically equivalent after stroke adjustments are applied. 

 

If you're playing a hole where no one gets any strokes, that implies that you all have an equal chance at a par. Sure, the better player probably has a better chance at a birdie, but the handicap system is based around the odds of getting a par (at least as I understand it). 

 

Interesting.  Very fair point.  Had not really considered that.

 

However, find me a person who, given the choice, who would not take a stroke hole.  My guess is there are very few situations where someone could choose to play the 18th hardest hole vs the hardest hole if they get a stroke.

Edited by david.c.w
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1 minute ago, david.c.w said:

 

Interesting.  Very fair point.  Had not really considered that.

 

However, find me a person who, given the choice, who would not take a stroke hole.  My guess is there are very few situations where someone could choose to play the 18th hardest hole vs the hardest hole

 

If someone wanted to get really picky, they could complain that the selected hole just happened to be the one that falls exactly on the line between them getting a stroke or not.

 

For instance, if a guy is playing off 11 strokes and his opponent just happens to select the 12th hardest hole on the course, the guy with 11 pops might see that as a scheme against him.

My counter-argument would be that if your attitude toward your strokes is that big a part of your player identity, you've forfeited the mental game before you even hit a shot. 

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12 minutes ago, me05501 said:

The strokes/no strokes thing seems to resolve itself, no? Assuming you buy into the way player and course handicaps are determined, then all holes should be basically equivalent after stroke adjustments are applied. 

 

If you're playing a hole where no one gets any strokes, that implies that you all have an equal chance at a par. Sure, the better player probably has a better chance at a birdie, but the handicap system is based around the odds of getting a par (at least as I understand it). 

If you’re getting, say, 17 strokes, I assure you that you are better off playing any of the holes in which you get a stroke vs. having to play the #18 handicap hole with no strokes against an opponent so much better than you.

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1 minute ago, Sawgrass said:

If you’re getting, say, 17 strokes, I assure you that you are better off playing any of the holes in which you get a stroke vs. having to play the #18 handicap hole with no strokes against an opponent so much better than you.

 

I think the GHIN system does it mostly right and fair matches can be played between players with indexes up to maybe 10 strokes apart. It sort of breaks down when you're comparing people with indexes 18 strokes apart.

 

An 18 index is going to have to play the round of his life to beat a scratch golfer, which is, most would say, as it should be. 

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8 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

I think the GHIN system does it mostly right and fair matches can be played between players with indexes up to maybe 10 strokes apart. It sort of breaks down when you're comparing people with indexes 18 strokes apart.

 

An 18 index is going to have to play the round of his life to beat a scratch golfer, which is, most would say, as it should be. 

It’s true that I selected players with a big stroke differential to make my point, though the same principle holds true with fewer strokes. 
 

But I’ll add that it’s not just GHIN, but the entire World Handicap System which endorses the idea that we can use the system to have any to players  compete.   From the manual:

 

1.1 Purpose of the World Handicap System

The World Handicap System includes the Rules of Handicapping and the Course Rating System. Its purpose is to enhance the enjoyment of the game of golf and to give as many golfers as possible the opportunity to:

  • Obtain and maintain a Handicap Index,
  • Use their Handicap Index on any golf course around the world, and
  • Compete, or play a casual round, with anyone else on a fair and equal basis.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Sawgrass said:

It’s true that I selected players with a big stroke differential to make my point, though the same principle holds true with fewer strokes. 
 

But I’ll add that it’s not just GHIN, but the entire World Handicap System which endorses the idea that we can use the system to have any to players  compete.   From the manual:

 

1.1 Purpose of the World Handicap System

The World Handicap System includes the Rules of Handicapping and the Course Rating System. Its purpose is to enhance the enjoyment of the game of golf and to give as many golfers as possible the opportunity to:

  • Obtain and maintain a Handicap Index,
  • Use their Handicap Index on any golf course around the world, and
  • Compete, or play a casual round, with anyone else on a fair and equal basis.

 

 

 

Thanks. I understand the concept, but I think everyone agrees that in real world situations the handicap curve isn't exactly linear.

 

Higher handicap players are far less consistent, for example. An 18 index suggests a much wider variability in posted scores compared to a scratch player.

 

And that's just the math...there's also the mental side. A scratch golfer is much more in the habit of performing well on the course and managing his game. 

 

So yes I realize that on paper they should be able to play a "fair" competition, but it would be hard to find anyone to bet on an honest 18 versus an honest 0.0.

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37 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Thanks. I understand the concept, but I think everyone agrees that in real world situations the handicap curve isn't exactly linear.

 

Higher handicap players are far less consistent, for example. An 18 index suggests a much wider variability in posted scores compared to a scratch player.

 

And that's just the math...there's also the mental side. A scratch golfer is much more in the habit of performing well on the course and managing his game. 

 

So yes I realize that on paper they should be able to play a "fair" competition, but it would be hard to find anyone to bet on an honest 18 versus an honest 0.0.

 

Well, I don't know about a MUCH wider variability in scores but we're starting to get into "Can a 4 handicap beat Lydia Ko ?" again.

 

And you do realize that while a higher handicapper MAY have a wider variability in scores he/she ALSO has a FAR better probability of posting a lower NET score (i.e. a better round vs his established ability) than a scratch player, yes ?

 

So it's pretty simple. You either take the word of the WHS for making a fair match,,,,,,, or you don't,,,,,, Dunno1.gif

 

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5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, I don't know about a MUCH wider variability in scores but we're starting to get into "Can a 4 handicap beat Lydia Ko ?" again.

 

And you do realize that while a higher handicapper MAY have a wider variability in scores he/she ALSO has a FAR better probability of posting a lower NET score (i.e. a better round vs his established ability) than a scratch player, yes ?

 

So it's pretty simple. You either take the word of the WHS for making a fair match,,,,,,, or you don't,,,,,, Dunno1.gif

 

 

Well...I guess I don't, then. And that's before considering that handicaps are often inaccurate due to issues like ignorance of the rules, ignorance of how ESC is applied, selective posting of scores, etc. And before considering that handicaps are set using stroke play rules but very often applied to match play situations.

 

Taking all that into consideration I would bet on a scratch player to beat an 18 index 95 times out of 100 in any net situation where the Rules of Golf are faithfully applied. 

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7 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Well...I guess I don't, then. And that's before considering that handicaps are often inaccurate due to issues like ignorance of the rules, ignorance of how ESC is applied, selective posting of scores, etc. And before considering that handicaps are set using stroke play rules but very often applied to match play situations.

 

Taking all that into consideration I would bet on a scratch player to beat an 18 index 95 times out of 100 in any net situation where the Rules of Golf are faithfully applied. 

 

So you don't like the system. No worries.

 

But as for your last paragraph, given honest handicaps, I'd take that bet any day. :classic_cool:

 

 

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1 hour ago, me05501 said:

The strokes/no strokes thing seems to resolve itself, no? Assuming you buy into the way player and course handicaps are determined, then all holes should be basically equivalent after stroke adjustments are applied. 

 

If you're playing a hole where no one gets any strokes, that implies that you all have an equal chance at a par. Sure, the better player probably has a better chance at a birdie, but the handicap system is based around the odds of getting a par (at least as I understand it). 

Your assumptions about stroke allocation are not accurate. Stroke allocation is way more complicated than people realise and it not a hole by hole decision where each hole is ranked by difficulty but entire 9/18 decision where 6 'triads' are used.

 

The guidance actually recommends a low - mid- high stroke hole in  every 3 holes, then your lowest stroke hole should be in the middle triad of each 9 . Then of course odds on the front, evens on the back.

 

For this reason the hole where a stroke is needed most is not always the 1 or 2 stroke hole and may not even be close to it. 

 

 

Some light reading if you want to learn more:https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix E Stroke Index Allocation.htm

 

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2 hours ago, me05501 said:

My counter-argument would be that if your attitude toward your strokes is that big a part of your player identity, you've forfeited the mental game before you even hit a shot

 

Strokes are certainly not part of my player identity.  They are the entire premise of a handicapped fourball match.  My whole point is that in a handicapped match the strokes are very important, and how they are allocated/addressed in extra holes is very important, and I did not want to be gamed out of a stroke just because someone wanted a specific routing so they did not have to give as many as they were supposed to.    At the end of the day there was no committee and seems to be no rule that dictates "play 18 until someone wins", or "start at 1 and play 2,3,4..."

 

The other team certainly would not agree to play handicap holes 6-10 where my partner and I were the only ones stroking.  Nor would we agree to play handicap holes 11-18 where there are no strokes.  I am just surprised that there is not a rule that says where you should start.  But I guess I can understand it as when there are lightning delays where folks go off 1 and 10, or even a shotgun, that hole 1 may not be the obvious next hole to play.

 

If there was a rule I would word it like this:  If a match is tied after the last hole played, extra holes should begin on the next chronological hole and continue until the match has been won.  If the last hole of the match is 18, extra holes begin on hole 1.  If the last hole of the match is 14, extra holes begin on 15.  This would cover 1 and 10 starts, as well as shotgun starts

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Here is Rule 3.2a(4)

(4) Extending a Tied Match. If a match is tied after the final hole:

The match is extended one hole at a time until there is a winner. See Rule 5.1 (an extended match is a continuation of the same round, not a new round).

The holes are played in the same order as in the round, unless the Committee sets a different order.

But the Terms of the Competition may say that the match will end in a tie rather than be extended.

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2 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

Taking all that into consideration I would bet on a scratch player to beat an 18 index 95 times out of 100 in any net situation where the Rules of Golf are faithfully applied. 

 

I assume you mean the scratch wins best net? There is no shortage of real world data that would prove this to be demonstrably wrong. 

 

Edited by 2bGood
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48 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

Strokes are certainly not part of my player identity.  They are the entire premise of a handicapped fourball match.  My whole point is that in a handicapped match the strokes are very important, and how they are allocated/addressed in extra holes is very important, and I did not want to be gamed out of a stroke just because someone wanted a specific routing so they did not have to give as many as they were supposed to.    At the end of the day there was no committee and seems to be no rule that dictates "play 18 until someone wins", or "start at 1 and play 2,3,4..."

 

The other team certainly would not agree to play handicap holes 6-10 where my partner and I were the only ones stroking.  Nor would we agree to play handicap holes 11-18 where there are no strokes.  I am just surprised that there is not a rule that says where you should start.  But I guess I can understand it as when there are lightning delays where folks go off 1 and 10, or even a shotgun, that hole 1 may not be the obvious next hole to play.

 

If there was a rule I would word it like this:  If a match is tied after the last hole played, extra holes should begin on the next chronological hole and continue until the match has been won.  If the last hole of the match is 18, extra holes begin on hole 1.  If the last hole of the match is 14, extra holes begin on 15.  This would cover 1 and 10 starts, as well as shotgun starts

 

Well, in your OP you answered the (actual) question - the host gets to choose.

 

That aside you do realize the ideal(?) match means every hole is halved tied and then, of course, the match is tied as well.

 

But the point is (theoretically ?), it shouldn't matter which hole you start on as you should tie that hole anyway. cool.gif

 

BTW, once you calculated the course handicaps of each player did you then apply the 90% adjustment to get the proper playing handicaps ?

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43 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Here is Rule 3.2a(4)

(4) Extending a Tied Match. If a match is tied after the final hole:

The match is extended one hole at a time until there is a winner. See Rule 5.1 (an extended match is a continuation of the same round, not a new round).

The holes are played in the same order as in the round, unless the Committee sets a different order.

But the Terms of the Competition may say that the match will end in a tie rather than be extended.

 

This looks like an official rule.  Thanks @rogolf!

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4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, in your OP you answered the (actual) question - the host gets to choose.

 

That aside you do realize the ideal(?) match means every hole is halved tied and then, of course, the match is tied as well.

 

But the point is (theoretically ?), it shouldn't matter which hole you start on as you should tie that hole anyway. cool.gif

 

BTW, once you calculated the course handicaps of each player did you then apply the 90% adjustment to get the proper playing handicaps ?

 

Host gets to choose some things, but obviously can't choose rules.  Committee left it at 100% handicap, not 90%. 

 

And as @Sawgrassand @2bGood said, getting a stroke is almost always better than no stroke.

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5 hours ago, david.c.w said:

 

Host gets to choose some things, but obviously can't choose rules.  Committee left it at 100% handicap, not 90%. 

 

And as @Sawgrassand @2bGood said, getting a stroke is almost always better than no stroke.

 

Sawgrass was replying to "M.E." and seemed to be talking about a 1-on-1 match.

 

Remember, you were playing 2 vs. 2. It's different. And you may have gotten an extra stroke somewhere, and thereby winning an extra hole, by ignoring the 90% playing handicap. Possibly you shouldn't have even gotten to a playoff. shrug.gif

 

Don't see where 2b chimed in about wanting to play a stroke hole rather than a non-stroke hole. I did see where he suggested holes weren't always being rated properly.

Edited by nsxguy

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sawgrass was replying to "M.E." and seemed to be talking about a 1-on-1 match.

 

Remember, you were playing 2 vs. 2. It's different. And you may have gotten an extra stroke somewhere, and thereby winning an extra hole, by ignoring the 90% playing handicap. Possibly you shouldn't have even gotten to a playoff. shrug.gif

 

Don't see where 2b chimed in about wanting to play a stroke hole rather than a non-stroke hole. I did see where he suggested holes weren't always being rated properly.

 

Are you reading the posts here?  Clear preference for getting a stroke from literally everyone.  I did not set the rules for 100% handicap.

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15 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I assume you mean the scratch wins best net? There is no shortage of real world data that would prove this to be demonstrably wrong. 

 

Some years ago the USGA and Scotland (amongst other national bodies) undertook very extensive surveys of match play results. It was found that in handicap matches off full handicap, that the lower capper won about 55% of the matches

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    • Phil Mickelson Winning WITB from the 2021 PGA Championship
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      Driver: Callaway Epic Speed Triple Diamond (6 degrees @5.5 , green dot cog) Fujikura Ventus Black 6 X (47.9 inches)
      2-wood: TaylorMade “Original One” Mini Driver (11.5 degrees) Fujikura Ventus Black 7 X
      4-wood: (Sunday only): Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero (16.5 degrees) Fujikura Ventus Blue 8 X
      Irons: Callaway X Forged UT (16) (Thursday-Saturday), Callaway X21 UT Proto (19 degrees @20.5, 25), Callaway Apex MB ‘21 (small groove) (6-PW) Shafts- 16* MCA MMT 105 TX, KBS Tour V 125 S+
      Wedges: Callaway PM Grind ’19 “Raw” ([email protected]*, 55-12*, 60-10*) Shafts: KBS Tour V 125 S+
      Putter: Odyssey Milled Blade “Phil Mickelson” SuperStroke Pistol GT Tour
      Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft X (Triple Track)
      Grips: Golf Pride MCC
       
      Link to more pics on the front-page... https://www.golfwrx.com/654804/phil-mickelson-witb-2021-may-pga-championship/
       

       
       
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