I’ve been out of the driver game for a while. Have we converged to a “can’t go wrong. Pick the one that looks best” yet?

[Exactice808]

my useless $0.02

 

drivers are limited to 239 CT units +/-18 units (Max 257ct units)

.830 COR or 1.5 smash factor generically speaking.... 100mph = 150mph ballspeed, is the limit.

 

 

Points

 

1) Drivers have increased their ability to maintain ball speed on less then optimal strikes.  So technology there, is where its increased.  It has NOT exceeded the 239ct units +/-18 period.  But it has allowed the most retained CT units further away from the sweet spot.

 

2) Configured Drivers for each individual swing.  With Shaft adaptors, we are able to tweak many aspects to maximize the chances for the player to strike the ball as efficiently as possible.  Length, Loft, Swing weight, Bias, Lie angles etc.  All these tweaks help the player deliver the head as efficiently as possible. 

 

3) Plethora of shafts, with the adapter we can pull shafts and test out what works best. If you cannot deliver the head to the ball it doesnt matter HOW amazing, expensive or tech filled head the club has, if the shaft dont match the player...you are not getting the head to the ball efficiently.  (My personal opinion)

 

 

SPECing out a Driver to the player.

 

 

Long post sit tight lol.

 

1) Get a base swing speed of the player......example, hit 20 shots, get the max average.  lets say its 100mph swing speed average.  THIS IS the theoretical max speed you can achieve with any regularity.  X(times) that by 1.5 to get the max efficient strike. that equals 150mph. You NOW have a base number to start building your efficiency.

 

2) Once you have this, you then plug it into a Trajectory optimizer, to get the absolute best launch condition possible. - https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/  That should give you a REALISTIC max distance you can hit a ball with an optimal flight for your current physical limitation.

 

3) You then BUILD your driver around your swing and that launch window.

 

BUILD -

 

1) Because of the multitudes of head options and shaft options you then play with it to work around your swing faults. If you are a HIGH spin driver, you then locate a low spin head and shaft.  That should reduce your spin.  the by product though is a lower MOI and less forgiving head.

 

2) You then figure out your LAUNCH angle,  if you hit the ball low, you spec out high launching shafts and high lofted drivers. or the opposite if you hit it too high.

 

3)  Your miss, you create a bias in the driver for that miss, through weight adjustments and swing weights.

 

4) Swing profile build.  Getting the total weight, shaft weight, bend profiles based on how you load the shaft and then Swing weight.  

 

 

Closing....

 

 

LOTS to choose from to optimize, NOTHING is LONGER than the other when perfectly struct and launching at your OPTIMAL launch window.

 

NO driver will make a ball go further than the other when you have a 1.5 smash and 15* launch with 2200rpms of spin.... The ball speed will be the EXACT same and the launch condition will be the EXACT same...

 

Spec it...build it to your profile and swing away!

 

 

GL OP! 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Exactice808

[TRoc9892]

5 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

my useless $0.02

 

drivers are limited to 239 CT units +/-18 units (Max 257ct units)

.830 COR or 1.5 smash factor generically speaking.... 100mph = 150mph ballspeed, is the limit.

 

 

Points

 

1) Drivers have increased their ability to maintain ball speed on less then optimal strikes.  So technology there, is where its increased.  It has NOT exceeded the 239ct units +/-18 period.  But it has allowed the most retained CT units further away from the sweet spot.

 

2) Configured Drivers for each individual swing.  With Shaft adaptors, we are able to tweak many aspects to maximize the chances for the player to strike the ball as efficiently as possible.  Length, Loft, Swing weight, Bias, Lie angles etc.  All these tweaks help the player deliver the head as efficiently as possible. 

 

3) Plethora of shafts, with the adapter we can pull shafts and test out what works best. If you cannot deliver the head to the ball it doesnt matter HOW amazing, expensive or tech filled head the club has, if the shaft dont match the player...you are not getting the head to the ball efficiently.  (My personal opinion)

 

 

SPECing out a Driver to the player.

 

 

Long post sit tight lol.

 

1) Get a base swing speed of the player......example, hit 20 shots, get the max average.  lets say its 100mph swing speed average.  THIS IS the theoretical max speed you can achieve with any regularity.  X(times) that by 1.5 to get the max efficient strike. that equals 150mph. You NOW have a base number to start building your efficiency.

 

2) Once you have this, you then plug it into a Trajectory optimizer, to get the absolute best launch condition possible. - https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/  That should give you a REALISTIC max distance you can hit a ball with an optimal flight for your current physical limitation.

 

3) You then BUILD your driver around your swing and that launch window.

 

BUILD -

 

1) Because of the multitudes of head options and shaft options you then play with it to work around your swing faults. If you are a HIGH spin driver, you then locate a low spin head and shaft.  That should reduce your spin.  the by product though is a lower MOI and less forgiving head.

 

2) You then figure out your LAUNCH angle,  if you hit the ball low, you spec out high launching shafts and high lofted drivers. or the opposite if you hit it too high.

 

3)  Your miss, you create a bias in the driver for that miss, through weight adjustments and swing weights.

 

4) Swing profile build.  Getting the total weight, shaft weight, bend profiles based on how you load the shaft and then Swing weight.  

 

 

Closing....

 

 

LOTS to choose from to optimize, NOTHING is LONGER than the other when perfectly struct and launching at your OPTIMAL launch window.

 

NO driver will make a ball go further than the other when you have a 1.5 smash and 15* launch with 2200rpms of spin.... The ball speed will be the EXACT same and the launch condition will be the EXACT same...

 

Spec it...build it to your profile and swing away!

 

 

GL OP! 

 

 

Love the write up. Doesn’t this seem so silly? Using your assertions, unless there is a driver head, one paired with one of the multitudes of shafts out there, that is physically incapable of producing a certain launch angle and certain spin rate, then there is only the need for a single driver, as far as pure distance is concerned. And of course there are intangibles from one person to the next that we’re not fitting into our vacuum. 

 

To address your point 1, ball speed maintenance across the face, I think we all agree this is where drivers have seen the most improvement. But do the differences between a ball missed X cm away from the sweet spot on average for driver A compare to driver B the same way that a 1.5 smash and 15* launch with 2200rpms of spin produces the exact same launch conditions and ball speed? If so, there are no differences as far as ball speed maintenance. 

[Exactice808]

14 minutes ago, TRoc9892 said:

Love the write up. Doesn’t this seem so silly? Using your assertions, unless there is a driver head, one paired with one of the multitudes of shafts out there, that is physically incapable of producing a certain launch angle and certain spin rate, then there is only the need for a single driver, as far as pure distance is concerned. And of course there are intangibles from one person to the next that we’re not fitting into our vacuum. 

 

To address your point 1, ball speed maintenance across the face, I think we all agree this is where drivers have seen the most improvement. But do the differences between a ball missed X cm away from the sweet spot on average for driver A compare to driver B the same way that a 1.5 smash and 15* launch with 2200rpms of spin produces the exact same launch conditions and ball speed? If so, there are no differences as far as ball speed maintenance. 

 

yes. there could be a difference, based on a couple more facets

 

MOI - Resistance to twisting.

Gear effect - How much spin is then added due to the location of strike from one head to the other

Bulge and roll design  - "Twist Face" TM,  "CNC face" Cobra, "Jailbreak" - Cally  Unique features may assist in different launch conditions.

 

There are no difference in Ball speed generically speaking.  But the strike location from manufacture could differ based on the effects it applies to the ball.

 

"Spin axis" and Launch.

 

Last would just be Bias and face angles at impact, how the club face is at the point of impact.

 

 

 

 

[AB515]

3 hours ago, TRoc9892 said:

How many times can the CG be moved around and make it a new releases? I am most certainly not considering getting a driver from 2005. But I also wouldn’t take for granted using the word significant when describing these differences. Are they significant? Are they just as significant company to company as they were 3 years ago? They may be, yes. I really just have no idea. 
 

 

Throwing this in as en edit. I understand “significant” may be personal and tough to quantify. But it always has been. Even when drivers were wildly different. That’s not really within the scope of the superficial and surface level question I’m asking. 

I’d say 3 years ago, no you won’t see significant differences in performance, maybe a bit more forgiveness but nothing too crazy. I think what I’m trying to say is there are differences in heads outside of just looks and feel and it varies from brand to brand. You could hit a 10 degree TSi3 with the same shaft and potentially get significantly different launch results from a G425 Max. I think right now most companies are consistently putting good products out there, they just fit different people/swing types better than others. My response was more focused on the response implying that driver performance has been maxed out since the 2000’s. I think year over year, the changes are typically insignificant, however over the course of time, there were enough small improvements that there becomes a performance gap when comparing something 5-10 years apart.

[Marty86]

1 hour ago, EDT501 said:

There are definitely a ton of really, really good options out there and very few, if any, bad ones. Yes distance has been maxed out for more than a decade, but the new stuff is unquestionably higher-performance. I've got pretty good mechanics and rarely miss the center of the face, but changing to a TS3 from a 910D3 last year was a significant improvement. I've always been a pretty good driver of the ball, but I definitely can get away with more now that I used to. I find myself swinging much more freely on the tee and able to play a little more aggressively because I know that the misses are less penal. Does that mean I can't still play good golf with my 910? Of course not. But there have definitely been improvements across the board. 

 

I do think that getting fit or at least seeing numbers before buying is still important. I find that heads today spin less and launch higher than they did in 2010 and in some cases are too low spin for a lot of players (looking at you SIM). However, within each category of head I think its fine to let visual and feel preferences guide you. I would also be open to going with a different shaft/shaft weight. I found that I could use something lighter with a little smoother profile than I used to use because the head itself was lower spin. Even though I still like my old 910 setup, my new TS setup is very different but I like it equally.

 

I upgraded this year to a TSi2 coming from a 910 D2, it's night and day how forgiving it is. I'm also not balooning the ball like I use to (I had a low low shaft before and now mid mid). Off center hits aren't as far off like you mentioned where I'm worried about trees and such. Distance wise I'm about 10-20 yards longer carry so yea the tech is slightly better. Big reason I updated is because my friend had a TS2 last year and I couldn't believe how forgiving from the shots I took with it.

[SwingMan]

4 hours ago, TRoc9892 said:

Thank you, SwingMan.

 

Not one above all.

 

But none above any other. 

 

I don't know what to tell you. They are all good drivers. For me, I pick about three to demo because there are too many - I've had success with Ping and Callaway and tend to stay there and find one other to demo.

[lefthack]

There are SO many YouTube videos of 10+ year old drivers vs today's. The difference is negligible. 

[joostin]

7 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

 

yes. there could be a difference, based on a couple more facets

 

MOI - Resistance to twisting.

Gear effect - How much spin is then added due to the location of strike from one head to the other

Bulge and roll design  - "Twist Face" TM,  "CNC face" Cobra, "Jailbreak" - Cally  Unique features may assist in different launch conditions.

 

There are no difference in Ball speed generically speaking.  But the strike location from manufacture could differ based on the effects it applies to the ball.

 

"Spin axis" and Launch.

 

Last would just be Bias and face angles at impact, how the club face is at the point of impact.

 

 

 

 

Adding that flexibility across the face combined with body rigidity affects the size of the sweet spot and speed retention away from center.  Clubhead deformation that is elastic and creates a more efficient collision with the ball (less deformation of the ball) is desired.  That's where speed slots, variable face thickness, and jailbreak kind of things come into play.  Strike is king, but these things that people chalk up to "marketing hype" are there for reasons - maybe little improvements but technically improvements nonetheless (and marketing hype 🙂).

[rkillian]

I don't think we've converged. Now I'm not very good, and I hadn't even taken up golf 10 years ago so I really can't comment on whether or not differences between drivers are bigger or smaller now.

 

As far as current stuff goes it doesn't seem that we've reached "pick a driver out of hat territory." I bet a lot of people could and be fine. But at minimum, it seems some driver heads handle certain misses on the face better. Head A might be better towards the toe for a player while head B is better on low strikes. My Mavrik Max now is better on a heal strike than either the Rogue or TS3 I had before it FWIW.

[Togatown22]

13 hours ago, lefthack said:

There are SO many YouTube videos of 10+ year old drivers vs today's. The difference is negligible. 

There are also tons of videos that show just how substantial the difference is - across the face / outside of the sweet spot.  The center is the center; problem is most of us don't hit it there all the time. 

[mgoblue83]

They are most certainly not the same and it's unlikely that the same shaft will work equally well in different driver heads.

 

Major OEM driver heads can be upwards of 10g different in weight as well as 2-3 degrees different in lie angle and face angle. There are also significant differences in cog. 

 

While they are all "maxed" out if delivered exactly the same there are going to be noticeable differences in performance between heads for most players.

 

The key is matching up the player with the right shaft and head combination for their swing. 

[TRoc9892]

6 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

They are most certainly not the same and it's unlikely that the same shaft will work equally well in different driver heads.

 

Major OEM driver heads can be upwards of 10g different in weight as well as 2-3 degrees different in lie angle and face angle. There are also significant differences in cog. 

 

While they are all "maxed" out if delivered exactly the same there are going to be noticeable differences in performance between heads for most players.

 

The key is matching up the player with the right shaft and head combination for their swing. 

Sure, but aren’t most current drivers equipped with adjustable weights and face angle/lie angle adjustability? 

[Texas Golfer]

4 hours ago, TRoc9892 said:

Sure, but aren’t most current drivers equipped with adjustable weights and face angle/lie angle adjustability? 

yes and no.  The issue with “adjustable” drivers is that you can’t really adjust one parameter without changing another.  For example, you can adjust loft, but in doing so, the face angle may also change.

[TRoc9892]

5 hours ago, Texas Golfer said:

yes and no.  The issue with “adjustable” drivers is that you can’t really adjust one parameter without changing another.  For example, you can adjust loft, but in doing so, the face angle may also change.

Right, but all adjustable woods suffer from this natural effect. They always have and they always will using the current tips. These are more factors drivers have in common. If we’re boiling it down to the big differentiators being half degree differences in lie angle and face angle attributed to how different drivers sit from the factory, cg placement which moves year to year, often to similar areas and further obscured by removable heel/toe weighting, then, in effect, we’ve disregarded any proprietary technology specific to one company. And a single customizable driver or two could theoretically fill every shoe. 

If we’re saying that different companies achieve ball speed maintenance across the face on mishits using independent technologies, but result in similar or identical forgiveness, then this still converges. If there’s a claim that somehow Cobra’s heel-miss correction reacts differently to some golfers than Taylormade’s heel-miss correction, both missed on the same part of the heel, then I’d like to see some studies backing up such a claim. 

[bvanlieu]

Topical in that TXG just put Mikey in a few new heads. He's a 100 MPH swinger which I gather is more relatable to most of us then 120+ MPH DirtyDog 🙂 

 

It was not comprehensive as only 15m long but covers what folks talk about in how are the heads (and their respective tech/cog/moi) managing the misses? Some heads for his swing clearly did a better job of heel misses and managing spin/launch to squeeze out more consistent distance. 

 

Some heads you just eliminate due to personal reasons so its good to have choices. 

 

I liked the parting shots: found a few that worked well now take them to the course and really decide. Range/Sim work gets you close, but having a real test drive makes all the difference. 

[Esox]

Keep trying newer stuff. Keep going back to the Ping G400 my kid put in my bag a while ago. Not the longest, not the most forgiving, but the best compromise between the two. Best driver I ever had.

[LaymanM]

Yes and No. Every company makes outstanding equipment but not every model is going to be a fit for you. Head design, loft, shaft weight/flex are all still very important. 9 degree PING G425 LST isn’t gonna for you if you need 12* higher spin head. 

[Barfolomew]

Bigger/different shaped sweet spots and manipulating spin is main difference in drivers every year.... what other variables could it even be lol.  Head weights maybe....

 

If you're trying to get out of trying them its a no go cause they are different, if you want the best one for you.  If you just want a decent one you can adjust too then yeah you can pick up a couple top drivers and sell the one you dont like.  Each one will fly different for every different swing.... high, low, straight, fade, draw etc

[Bdck]

On 4/29/2021 at 12:00 PM, AB515 said:

This isn’t really accurate. While yes, drivers have been maxed out in terms of COR and size, there are other factors in play leading to better performance since the 2000’s. Material developments have significantly helped with aerodynamics and off center consistency. While yes, a driver from 2005 might be able to hit it as far as a driver from 2021 if perfectly centered, even the pros aren’t centering their driver every hit. 
 

And while yes, looks and feel are two of the main factors, you also need to factor in CG location and general driver weighting when choosing a driver. There are significant differences between driver heads that can cause differing results even when using the same shafts.

 

COR measures the time a ball spends on the club face.  The theory being that more time = more energy transfer.

 

There's a common disconnect in these conversations though - while COR and smash factor are related and trend positively, they aren't the same.

 

We've seen tremendous leaps in ball speed in the last 20 years.  We've also seen tremendous leaps in optimization to launch conditions.  COR and cc'd are both just parts of those equations.

 

BTW, not targeting you.  Just an easy entry point here.