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Why doesn't everyone putt sidesaddle ?


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15 minutes ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

Good to know.

I think we need someone to use the putters on the PGA and test the ruling though.

You can hold any conforming club at any angle you wish.  If a club head is designed so that it can be held vertically with no loss of performance, it would not be ruled to be conforming by the USGA.  The PGA Tour uses the USGA rules and conforming list for clubs and balls; they don’t make their own.

 

The Bobby Grace F22 is a conforming club, which I also use to putt side saddle.  As BigEx44 says, the F22 can be used in an almost vertical position, which I do NOT do. There is a trade-off when ANY club isn’t soled; BigEx44 likes one side of the trade-off; I like the other. None of which has anything to do with whether or not the club is conforming.

 

Stricker has made a LOT of money putting with the heel of his putter off the ground at address, and Aoki made a LOT of money putting the the toe in the air.  How a club is held and used is up to the golfer.  And FWIW, I play 25 or so senior tournaments at the state level each year, and nobody has ever even asked about my putter, including rules officials.

 

Dechambeau, btw, tried to cheat, at least IMO. He submitted a putter to the USGA when he was preparing to go back to side saddle, and it was ruled to be conforming, but that was NOT the putter he came out on Tour with.  I suspected that something was up the first day, and I knew it was illegal the second day.  Sure enough, the USGA quickly ruled it to be non-conforming, and BCD abandoned side saddle rather than use a conforming club.  Believe me, I’ll have a sour taste for that guy forever; if anybody would know the pertinent rules, it’s him, and he tried to flaunt the rules and the authority of the USGA.

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2 hours ago, bluedot said:

You can hold any conforming club at any angle you wish.  If a club head is designed so that it can be held vertically with no loss of performance, it would not be ruled to be conforming by the USGA.  The PGA Tour uses the USGA rules and conforming list for clubs and balls; they don’t make their own.

 

The Bobby Grace F22 is a conforming club, which I also use to putt side saddle.  As BigEx44 says, the F22 can be used in an almost vertical position, which I do NOT do. There is a trade-off when ANY club isn’t soled; BigEx44 likes one side of the trade-off; I like the other. None of which has anything to do with whether or not the club is conforming.

 

Stricker has made a LOT of money putting with the heel of his putter off the ground at address, and Aoki made a LOT of money putting the the toe in the air.  How a club is held and used is up to the golfer.  And FWIW, I play 25 or so senior tournaments at the state level each year, and nobody has ever even asked about my putter, including rules officials.

 

Dechambeau, btw, tried to cheat, at least IMO. He submitted a putter to the USGA when he was preparing to go back to side saddle, and it was ruled to be conforming, but that was NOT the putter he came out on Tour with.  I suspected that something was up the first day, and I knew it was illegal the second day.  Sure enough, the USGA quickly ruled it to be non-conforming, and BCD abandoned side saddle rather than use a conforming club.  Believe me, I’ll have a sour taste for that guy forever; if anybody would know the pertinent rules, it’s him, and he tried to flaunt the rules and the authority of the USGA.

You make some great points.

 

That was my point from earlier... if the putter is indeed 100% conforming, you would need to make some concessions to use it at 90*, like having the heel up by 10*.  Although I haven't used the F22, I would imagine this makes the effective face way smaller. Maybe the weights in the F22 make it a lot more stable out near the toe-side.  I used the GP putter and found that using it at 90* made it difficult to strike pure.  I also found a weird vibration throughout the shaft.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

I use a Ping B90 and hold it at 90 degrees and it is absolutely legal.  Isao Aoki would putt with the toe of his putter up in the air and many pro golfers putt with either the toe or the heel of their putters off the ground and it is legal.  There is no rule that tells you that your putters sole has to be flat on the surface of the green.

 

Stan

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  • 5 months later...
On 5/1/2021 at 11:26 AM, stingerfade said:

Probably because it looks dumb. 
 

not trying to be smug or whatever but people have a hard time being different 


This is very true. (Why AVERAGE people wouldn’t try.)

 

Thus why guys run around looking like they are Titleist staff members - clubs, ball, bag, umbrella, glove, etc - and don’t and never have played competitively.

Edited by kevinmdowney
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On 5/7/2021 at 11:50 AM, QuigleyDU said:

Why doesn't everyone putt side saddle? The answer is simple, It looks silly and benefits are almost zero.. It may work better for someone and that is great. Lots of ways to skin the cat. But in this. Outside of anecdote and isolated individual evidences, I do not think you are able to find a measurable benefit to this method.

 

So with no measurable advantage and looking goofy. Few will be willing to do it. 


What does “looking goofy” have to do with it? Most people are Lemmings. But you don’t move mountains being a follower.

Edited by kevinmdowney
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On 5/7/2021 at 1:31 PM, me05501 said:

The fact that you can search across ALL the pro tours and can't find anyone who has adopted this method with great success is a pretty reasonable counter-argument. If there was any general magic in it, there'd surely be a few people who are less concerned with how it looks and more concerned with how it works.

 

OTOH maybe it's like shooting free throws granny style, which was suggested to Shaq when he was struggling at the line. He said he'd rather quit than do that in a game. 

 

I think the real question is why the natural, easy-going approach to putting we all use on the practice green is so hard to take to the course. No matter the style of putting, most people can enjoy freely rolling putts of all lengths on the practice surface without a technical thought crossing their minds. Get the same players out on the course and they can become paralyzed with results-oriented thinking. It rarely makes them putt any better. 

 

If sidesaddle putting releases you from those mental games, more power do you! I think for a lot of people it would add a layer of mental dynamics to be doing something so differently and worrying about being judged by the results. 


 

Edited by kevinmdowney

In the bag:

9 Degree BOM w/ Aldila NVS 65

17 Degree BOM 4 Wood w/ Aldila NVS 65

21 Degree Dynacraft Utility Iron

4-PW, 52, 56, 60 Alpha MDC Irons & Wedges w/ Apollo Acculite 95 Shafts

Star Sidewinder Midsize Grips

32” Callaway Divine Line Putter 

 

 

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On 7/7/2021 at 4:17 PM, bluedot said:

As to being "razed", you're half right. 

 

Chops always freak out; good players never say a word unless they want to ask about it and check out the putter.  When I get paired up with strangers at my home course, if they say anything at all, it'll be immediate, and without fail, they suck.

 

But I play a lot of senior tournaments, both individual and four ball, and those guys rarely say a word.  Good players would do ANYTHING to get the ball in the hole one stroke quicker; chops are threatened by the possibility that there might be a better way.  Plus, most good players have seen this before anyway; there are actually a surprising number of guys putting this way, especially since the anchoring ban came in. 

 

But it's all good; I'm at a place in my life where I don't give a damn what anybody thinks anyway.  I find that to be a bigger advantage in golf than any particular putting method, including putting with one hand from an extremely open stance, aka side saddle.


Anybody who is a money player would watch someone who is a good SS putter and think two things:

 

1. What’s their hdcp? Don’t think I want to play against them.

 

2. I have to at least TRY that.

 

 

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In the bag:

9 Degree BOM w/ Aldila NVS 65

17 Degree BOM 4 Wood w/ Aldila NVS 65

21 Degree Dynacraft Utility Iron

4-PW, 52, 56, 60 Alpha MDC Irons & Wedges w/ Apollo Acculite 95 Shafts

Star Sidewinder Midsize Grips

32” Callaway Divine Line Putter 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/5/2021 at 7:38 AM, bluedot said:

 

You are, of course, free to disagree with me.  But I don't think you can name anything else in all of sport in which a player stands parallel to the line of play and uses two hands that isn't about speed thru torque and weight shift.  It is a position meant for motion and power, and it's no surprise that so many struggle with staying still and just rocking the shoulders with conventional putting. 

 

Putting is a precise movement, much less about power than the simple accuracy of rolling the ball down an intended line toward the hole.  If "precision" doesn't work for you, then pick your own word for that.  Hitting a golf ball with a full swing, like hitting a baseball or a tennis ball, is meant to be powerful, and body motions are critical to that power; body motions are death to good putting. 

 

You can split hairs all you want about what "precision" and "power" mean, and of course there is an intended line of play and target for a powerful full swing.  But I think the fundamental point remains the same; parallel to the line of play with two hands in sports is a position adopted for power thru motion, and conventional putting demands exactly the opposite. 

 

Try the other things that have been mentioned with a conventional putting stance and motion, and let me know what you think.  Shoot some free throws with two hands across your body.  Throw some darts that way.  Go bowling and give it a try.  Toss a few paper wads toward a trash can.  Toss a softball to a kid across your body with two hands.  Anything, really, where accuracy is critical and power isn't. 

 

You aren't going to convert to side saddle, and that's fine; it ain't a magic trick, and it isn't for everybody, for several reasons.  But that doesn't change anything about the difficulty of putting conventionally relative to facing the hole and just swinging your arm in the direction that God attached it to your shoulder.

To me, the closest analogy is free throw shooting. You would never turn sideways and sweep the ball across your body towards the basket. You also want to use one hand to brace the ball and one hand to actually shoot the ball. Dave Pelz looked at data when he said it was the most repeatable method. My experience has been that the accuracy needs touch are both improved. 3-4 footers were always a challenge for me and very stressful. The side saddle method has made putting fun again.

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11 hours ago, Brian Riley said:

To me, the closest analogy is free throw shooting. You would never turn sideways and sweep the ball across your body towards the basket. You also want to use one hand to brace the ball and one hand to actually shoot the ball. Dave Pelz looked at data when he said it was the most repeatable method. My experience has been that the accuracy needs touch are both improved. 3-4 footers were always a challenge for me and very stressful. The side saddle method has made putting fun again.

As it happens, I was a HS basketball coach for 39 years.  Putting and free throw shooting have a lot of similarities, both mental and physical, no matter how you putt, but putting side saddle FEELS to me like shooting a free throw just flipped on a different plane, right down to making sure your elbow is lined up instead of sticking out.

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I changed to cross handed putting last year as a desperation move (the YIPS suddenly showed up with a vengeance and were uncontrollable otherwise). I had tried cross handed putting back in the mid 1960's (kind of an old guy here) and found it better inside 6 to 8 feet, but not as good for distance control on longer putts. Almost 60 years later that is still true for me. 

 

Side saddle is an interesting alternative here. 

 

dave

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  • 3 months later...

I’m new to this site, but this thread has been especially helpful for me, as I’ve been experimenting with and considering the change to SS putting. My background is similar to “Blue Dot”; low single digit senior player, reasonably good at conventional style putting but looking for a better way. I’m sold on the advantages and just need to commit to the change and buy the SS best putter available. Bobby Grace F-22? Anyway, thanks for the excellent content!

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On 12/31/2022 at 3:16 AM, GoGreen72 said:

I’m new to this site, but this thread has been especially helpful for me, as I’ve been experimenting with and considering the change to SS putting. My background is similar to “Blue Dot”; low single digit senior player, reasonably good at conventional style putting but looking for a better way. I’m sold on the advantages and just need to commit to the change and buy the SS best putter available. Bobby Grace F-22? Anyway, thanks for the excellent content!

 

I have the F-22.  Blue Dot has extensive experience with a cross-section of different SS putters. Hopefully he will weigh in here.  I look at the F-22 like it is the ProV1 of putters. It is the gold standard if you will. The easy "base" decision. You can never go wrong with the F-22 and you don't need to over think it.

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38 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

 

I have the F-22.  Blue Dot has extensive experience with a cross-section of different SS putters. Hopefully he will weigh in here.  I look at the F-22 like it is the ProV1 of putters. It is the gold standard if you will. The easy "base" decision. You can never go wrong with the F-22 and you don't need to over think it.

 

Like Blue Dot I probably own every SS putter out there too.  The F22 is the best of the bunch IMHO.  But....I didn't go out and buy it (it is expensive at around $500) until I knew I was committed to the putting style.  Of course, if money isn't a concern - I'd say go for it.  You can't find a better SS putter!!

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22 hours ago, BigEx44 said:

 

Like Blue Dot I probably own every SS putter out there too.  The F22 is the best of the bunch IMHO.  But....I didn't go out and buy it (it is expensive at around $500) until I knew I was committed to the putting style.  Of course, if money isn't a concern - I'd say go for it.  You can't find a better SS putter!!

BigEx44 said it perfectly.

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Thanks for the feedback on F22, mine is on order, which means I’ll sell the Bomar Blaze I’ve been struggling with (no need to collect putters I suppose). Fully committed now to this style/method, largely because of the information on this site. Quick question on setup for the most experienced side saddlers: how far forward of the front foot to you play the ball? Thanks!

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I noticed a few months ago that Randy Haag has gone back to a conventional stroke (with a long putter):

 

https://twitter.com/ncga1901/status/1593029569904201728?s=20&t=7FJXH9f85kYFOVWlO0WcJA

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7 hours ago, GoGreen72 said:

Thanks for the feedback on F22, mine is on order, which means I’ll sell the Bomar Blaze I’ve been struggling with (no need to collect putters I suppose). Fully committed now to this style/method, largely because of the information on this site. Quick question on setup for the most experienced side saddlers: how far forward of the front foot to you play the ball? Thanks!

 

Here is my setup:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/63r4wre6hmy88pa/VID_20180614_201330493.mp4?dl=0

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12 hours ago, carrera said:

I noticed a few months ago that Randy Haag has gone back to a conventional stroke (with a long putter):

 

https://twitter.com/ncga1901/status/1593029569904201728?s=20&t=7FJXH9f85kYFOVWlO0WcJA

Interesting. 

He was a big believer in SS. I remember browsing his website before trying it. 

SS would be great if you could use a putter with a 90 degree lie angle. 

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On 1/3/2023 at 10:45 AM, GoGreen72 said:

Thanks for the feedback on F22, mine is on order, which means I’ll sell the Bomar Blaze I’ve been struggling with (no need to collect putters I suppose). Fully committed now to this style/method, largely because of the information on this site. Quick question on setup for the most experienced side saddlers: how far forward of the front foot to you play the ball? Thanks!

11” from the front of my front/right toe to the back of the ball. 

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Hi, I play on a course with large undulating greens.  It is not unusual to have a forty foot putt that goes up a rise and comes down toward the hole.  So approach putting can be a challenge.  I have taken up side saddle putting and I am very happy with putting inside of 10 feet (my former yipping zone).  But I am really struggling with long approach putting.  Beyond getting the speed correct, I find with the longer stroke for long putts, I am too often missing the putter sweet spot that really messes up approach putts.  Can anyone offer up some ideas/suggestions on how they have improved their speed control and contact when making longer side saddle strokes?

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10 hours ago, stevehj said:

Hi, I play on a course with large undulating greens.  It is not unusual to have a forty foot putt that goes up a rise and comes down toward the hole.  So approach putting can be a challenge.  I have taken up side saddle putting and I am very happy with putting inside of 10 feet (my former yipping zone).  But I am really struggling with long approach putting.  Beyond getting the speed correct, I find with the longer stroke for long putts, I am too often missing the putter sweet spot that really messes up approach putts.  Can anyone offer up some ideas/suggestions on how they have improved their speed control and contact when making longer side saddle strokes?

On long putts I use the putter in conventional broomstick manner.Not hard to do with the BG F22. One other option I have seen suggested is to carry a second putter

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11 hours ago, stevehj said:

Hi, I play on a course with large undulating greens.  It is not unusual to have a forty foot putt that goes up a rise and comes down toward the hole.  So approach putting can be a challenge.  I have taken up side saddle putting and I am very happy with putting inside of 10 feet (my former yipping zone).  But I am really struggling with long approach putting.  Beyond getting the speed correct, I find with the longer stroke for long putts, I am too often missing the putter sweet spot that really messes up approach putts.  Can anyone offer up some ideas/suggestions on how they have improved their speed control and contact when making longer side saddle strokes?

 

With really long putts I make a few changes to my SS stroke:

1. I like the putter to be perfectly soled.  Offers more stability when "accuracy" is less important and "distance" is more important.  (note:  I hold my putter a touch more vertical on shorter putts)

2. My ball placement isn't quite as far out in front me.

I found on really long putts when trying to give the ball a little "ooomph" that I'd sometimes top the ball a bit -  getting too much bounce and losing distance.  Moving the ball back a bit solves that problem.

3. Because of #2 above, I don't let the distance get into my head in terms of how I stroke the ball.  I try to keep my stroke as smooth and rhythmic as with my shorter putts.  So I focus more on smoothly lengthening my putter stroke rather than trying to putt the ball harder, if that makes sense.  A subtle change that makes a ton of difference for me.  I wonder if this is what you're doing on the longer putts that has you missing the sweet spot?

4.  And then the obvious answer:  practice a lot of long lag putts and you'll naturally figure out what works best for you.

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  • 1 month later...

I’m using the face on GP putter with great success. I tried it with the putter soled and it was hit or miss for me. But I watched the PR Dionne videos and when I plumb-bobbed it, it started making putts regularly. As long as I make sure to have the ball a bit forward so I hit it with a slight ascending stroke, it works great. 

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5 hours ago, JA17 said:

I’m using the face on GP putter with great success. I tried it with the putter soled and it was hit or miss for me. But I watched the PR Dionne videos and when I plumb-bobbed it, it started making putts regularly. As long as I make sure to have the ball a bit forward so I hit it with a slight ascending stroke, it works great. 

 

It's a nice putter.  It was just too light for my taste.

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