Playing from the wrong tee question.

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Is this the video?  If so, I played with him last September.

https://www.facebook.com/golf/videos/double-hit-strategy/135588414037493/

 

I should think so. Skillful handling of a club.

[antip]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I should think so. Skillful handling of a club.

There's plenty more, some less successful than others. See the second player here.

https://www.facebook.com/TheEuropeanTour/videos/295106074685345/?__so__=serp_videos_tab

[rogolf]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I should think so. Skillful handling of a club.

Agree.  Skilled player - played in a couple of Senior British Opens; winner on South African Tour, one year on PGA Tour, All-American NCAA player.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

Point is if someone can make a case for a different type of resolution (penalty) then the TB’s would probably change it. The 2 strike rule was just one of really dumb rules in golf.

Have you ever known someone to practice double hitting the golf ball so that it is an advantage to them?

 

If I'm not mistaken there still IS a penalty for double-hitting the ball intentionally.

 

 

[Quasimoto]

And it is as it should be.

[Nels55]

Well, I asked the USGA about this rule and their response seemed reasonable though and was related to protecting the field from careless players.  I am still not completely convinced as the DQ for playing from the wrong tees without correcting seems severe enough but that is simply my thinking and has no bearing on anything lol. 

 

One thing that was mentioned was that if player B intentionally let player A hit from the wrong tees his actions would not be in the spirit of the game and if player B somehow admitted doing this then he could be DQ'd by the committee.  I agree with that 100% and I believe that it is something that all golfers should be aware of!  Sportsmanship is paramount in golf!

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Nels55 said:

1) Well, I asked the USGA about this rule and their response seemed reasonable though and was related to protecting the field from careless players.  I am still not completely convinced as the DQ for playing from the wrong tees without correcting seems severe enough but that is simply my thinking and has no bearing on anything lol. 

 

2) One thing that was mentioned was that if player B intentionally let player A hit from the wrong tees his actions would not be in the spirit of the game and if player B somehow admitted doing this then he could be DQ'd by the committee.  I agree with that 100% and I believe that it is something that all golfers should be aware of!  Sportsmanship is paramount in golf!

 

1) So... what kind of penalty did you have in mind that is more severe than DQ..?

 

2) That would be rather interesting to experience. AFAIK there is nothing whatsoever in the Rules describing that a competitor could be responsible for preventing another player from making a breach. If there is I have missed it completely. It sure is good sportsmanship but making another player responsible for his fellow players sounds unreasonable to me .

[Augster]

I’m with Nels on this and it should be changed. 
 

We are talking about an accidental teeing from the wrong place. An action that gets corrected and the player plays from the correct place. No need for the 2SP. The player hasn’t gone forward yet. The DQ will

protect the field if he finds out later he hit from the wrong tee and didn’t immediately correct his error. The 2SP is harsh and unnecessary. 
 

To “practice” on the course there must be intent. Absentmindedly teeing from the wrong place and hitting a ball isn’t practice. If the player is intentionally playing a ball from the wrong tee for practice then correcting his error later, that’s completely different. That is practice and has it’s own penalty. 
 

So the only reason for the 2SP for teeing from a wrong place is simply so the committee doesn’t have to judge intent. 
 

I have never seen anyone intentionally tee from the wrong spot. And the few times I have done it, it was completely unintentional. Judging “intent” doesn’t factor in. Rules-following golfers simply don’t intentionally play from the wrong tee for “practice”. 
 

Do away with the 2SP.  

[antip]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) So... what kind of penalty did you have in mind that is more severe than DQ..?

 

2) That would be rather interesting to experience. AFAIK there is nothing whatsoever in the Rules describing that a competitor could be responsible for preventing another player from making a breach. If there is I have missed it completely. It sure is good sportsmanship but making another player responsible for his fellow players sounds unreasonable to me .

The rule relevant to 2) is Rule 1.2 and a Committee has considerable discretion to determine how it treats and polices behaviour it considers fail to meet the spirit of the game. And what gets some Committees excited can vary significantly.

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, antip said:

The rule relevant to 2) is Rule 1.2 and a Committee has considerable discretion to determine how it treats and polices behaviour it considers fail to meet the spirit of the game. 

 

First we would have to define the spirit of the game and so far I have never encountered a situation in stroke play in which a player would have been penalized because they did not prevent another player from making a breach. In principle I am not against it but the danger I see there is the responsibility aspect. Also the criteria would be different for each player depending on their level of knowledge of the Rules. Tough decisions, I can envisage.

[antip]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

First we would have to define the spirit of the game and so far I have never encountered a situation in stroke play in which a player would have been penalized because they did not prevent another player from making a breach. In principle I am not against it but the danger I see there is the responsibility aspect. Also the criteria would be different for each player depending on their level of knowledge of the Rules. Tough decisions, I can envisage.

I don't believe any Committee is required to define it, they can just play autocratic dictator if they are so inclined. And they are always right, even when they are wrong. Of course, it makes total sense for a Committee to be clear about anything that gets them very excited, it's just that no Rule forces them to do so.

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, antip said:

I don't believe any Committee is required to define it, they can just play autocratic dictator if they are so inclined. And they are always right, even when they are wrong. Of course, it makes total sense for a Committee to be clear about anything that gets them very excited, it's just that no Rule forces them to do so.

There is no way to know someone's intent unless they are vocal about it.  I think in this case player B would have to be shooting his mouth off about how he got one over on player A for the committee to take any action and even then I am not sure that most would.

 

I actually had a guy do this to me many years ago in a company league post season match play tournament.  I teed off on a par five hitting a not to solid 3 wood and after I hit he told me I had been in front of the tees and that it was two stroke penalty.  I actually looked the rule up in a rule book that I carried and he had me hit another shot.  If I knew then what I know now I would have told him my ball was not in front of the markers and maybe given him a few choice words about sportsmanship and played on.  There were only the two of us so he could not have proven anything.  LOL it actually worked to my advantage because I accidently hit my second 3 wood shot to within a few yards of the first one which kind of spooked him.

[Mr. Bean]

40 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

There is no way to know someone's intent unless they are vocal about it.  I think in this case player B would have to be shooting his mouth off about how he got one over on player A for the committee to take any action and even then I am not sure that most would.

 

I actually had a guy do this to me many years ago in a company league post season match play tournament.  I teed off on a par five hitting a not to solid 3 wood and after I hit he told me I had been in front of the tees and that it was two stroke penalty.  I actually looked the rule up in a rule book that I carried and he had me hit another shot.  If I knew then what I know now I would have told him my ball was not in front of the markers and maybe given him a few choice words about sportsmanship and played on.  There were only the two of us so he could not have proven anything.  LOL it actually worked to my advantage because I accidently hit my second 3 wood shot to within a few yards of the first one which kind of spooked him.

 

In Match Play there is no penalty for playing outside the Teeing Area. Your opponent may recall the stroke but you would still be hitting your 1st from the tee.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Mr. Bean
Typo

[Chronic Shanker]

Couldn't agree more. The penalty is way out of whack with the offence. I did it today because our course has a two tee system in the same competition. I was playing the back tee and one of my playing partners was playing off the whites about two metres ahead. He had the honour. I followed him and hit from the wrong tee area. The two tee system in the same comp doesn't help, but I grew up playing when they took away all tees that weren't being used... much safer. Anyway, if it does happen, maybe just pay with the stroke you hit and play two (instead of three) off the tee. Nobody is going to deliberately hit a practice shot if it's going to count as a stroke! If you don't reload, you're disqualified as is currently the rule. 

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Chronic Shanker said:

Couldn't agree more. The penalty is way out of whack with the offence. I did it today because our course has a two tee system in the same competition. I was playing the back tee and one of my playing partners was playing off the whites about two metres ahead. He had the honour. I followed him and hit from the wrong tee area. The two tee system in the same comp doesn't help, but I grew up playing when they took away all tees that weren't being used... much safer. Anyway, if it does happen, maybe just pay with the stroke you hit and play two (instead of three) off the tee. Nobody is going to deliberately hit a practice shot if it's going to count as a stroke! If you don't reload, you're disqualified as is currently the rule. 

 

So you were DQ'd ?

 

Basic problem with hitting from the wrong place is, regardless of where your ball ends up and you finish the hole (and presumably add a penalty stroke or 2 when you realize the mistake), you really have no idea what would've happened had you played from the correct place. Thus the requirement to correct before moving on.

 

Your assumption would seem to be you'd have ended up in roughly the same place anyway, so why DQ ? I mean, what's a few metres between friends ?

 

But that assumption is not valid. Consider a situation where there's a tree just off the tee to one side that one must pay attention to. You tee off from a more forward position and it's "Tree ? What tree ?

 

But if you teed off from further back it's more like "Watch that tree !!!). More difficult to avoid the tree and doing so could affect where your shot would've likely ended up. Or not. Who knows ?

 

So you MAY end up with a much better score if you don't correct the mistake. Or not. Either way, it's not the way it was supposed to be.

 

Similar to playing a wrong ball from the general area all the way into the hole. You have to correct and play on.

 

As for why 2 strokes,,,,,,,, not sure exactly. But it seems to be that the general penalty (2 strokes) is used when the player makes some sort of mistake due to playing a shot.

 

1 stroke penalties seem to apply to procedural events (dropping vs. placing & such).

 

Not sure about that but I'm sure somebody will come along and confirm or clarify.

[Newby]

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

As for why 2 strokes,,,,,,,, not sure exactly. But it seems to be that the general penalty (2 strokes) is used when the player makes some sort of mistake due to playing a shot.

 

1 stroke penalties seem to apply to procedural events (dropping vs. placing & such).

 

Not sure about that but I'm sure somebody will come along and confirm or clarify.

My take is that 1 stroke applies to pure accidents and 2 strokes apply when the player has an element of control.