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JaNelson38

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1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I think the future is some sort of global tour almost like the premier league. I could see Euro tour and PGA tour and others existing for the journeyman types and big name guys to play in a few tournaments here and there.

 

But golf is really a global game, lot of Asian players coming up the ranks too now. I can't see like 18 of the top 20 tournaments every year being in the US for too much longer

 

Seeing Saudi throw money at it, eventually China will . It just feels like the future is like 7-8 big events in the US, 7-8 somewhere in Europe/Middle East and then like 7-8 somewhere in Asia

 

I wonder if there is even enough money in the US alone for golf. As was pointed out earlier in the thread the PGA tour doesn't make enough to pay these guys what most athletes get paid.

 

I don't think the global tour thing will come about due to players coming from certain places.  There are tours everywhere.  The money is just very different, and players chase the money.

 

I've said before, what I'd be ok with is a tennis like system, where there are anywhere from 2-5 tournaments going on at different places.  The larger prize pools give higher ranking points, etc.

 

Only difference is, not that it's easier to win in tennis, but the better player wins far more often.  You'd have to work what are equitable exemptions I guess.

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3 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

But to get into The Masters, PGA Championship, U.S. Open, and the British Open, you need world ranking points. They're not getting any from this proposed carnival side show.

 

Do we know that?  IF Johnson, Rose, Matsuyama, Thomas, Spieth, McIlroy, etc., all tee it up in an event that isn't played in a weird format, are they really going to be able to sell that there shouldn't be points on the line?

 

Not to mention, nothing is stopping the majors from changing their criteria and getting away from the OWGR as one of them.  It's only been the last 20 years that has been the case.  

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Just now, golfortennis said:

 

Do we know that?  IF Johnson, Rose, Matsuyama, Thomas, Spieth, McIlroy, etc., all tee it up in an event that isn't played in a weird format, are they really going to be able to sell that there shouldn't be points on the line?

 

Not to mention, nothing is stopping the majors from changing their criteria and getting away from the OWGR as one of them.  It's only been the last 20 years that has been the case.  

I'll guarantee that there will be zero OWGR for this as the OWGR is run by the PGA Tour, European Tour, USGA, R&A, The Masters, and the PGA of America. It will get ZERO OWGR status.

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11 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:


 

I look at it this way.

 

It took the UK centuries and the US over a century of golf being woven into the thread of society to produce the physical infrastructure (courses, youth/college programs) and the generational family focus on the game to produce what we see today.

 

The issue with the Saudis or China is that you need all of the above to really enable what they would want to accomplish as far as having a “home grown” talent pool.

 

As far as recruiting. Pulling top players is not going to work once they are established for a few years on the PGA Tour. A guy like JT is focused on his childhood dreams of being a grand slam winner and seeing his name on the Masters menu; )

 

They would really need to recruit players right out of college, take the risk like the NFL teams do in a draft, a throw a ton of guaranteed money at players with promise but no pro track record.

 

This would be more effective on young Euro and Asian players for a number of reasons. 
 

 

 

 

Well said.

 

Also when you look at access to golf for the masses there is a reason the PGA tour is primarily located in the North America.  As for Saudi Arabia and China they are close to DFL in courses per capita where the US has exponentially more courses per capita. MOST IMPORTANTLY they have reprehensible human rights records--- so I don't think the common man or woman has access to golf like we do in the free world.  Perhaps they can lure some guys with big money for the entertainment of the elite few, but cozying up to these people is morally reprehensible.   I could go on a rant but I'll stop for now. 

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44 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

I don't think the global tour thing will come about due to players coming from certain places.  There are tours everywhere.  The money is just very different, and players chase the money.

 

I've said before, what I'd be ok with is a tennis like system, where there are anywhere from 2-5 tournaments going on at different places.  The larger prize pools give higher ranking points, etc.

 

Only difference is, not that it's easier to win in tennis, but the better player wins far more often.  You'd have to work what are equitable exemptions I guess.

 

The only point i was making with players being of various backrounds is that some have argued that people won't want to leave the US because they love it so much there, like there's a national pride in being there. I dont really agree with that, the US is a great place, i will likely live there within the next 10 years myself... And i could see playing pro sports in your native country as a benefit to where you'd take a slight pay cut to live at home, but anything above slight, i don't see it. But with golf >50% isn't from the US originally anyway.

 

I don't think guys who grow up in Japan or Spain or England had a dream to live in the US, it was to make millions of dollars playing golf and the US happens to be the best place to do that. That was the only reason i brought that up.

 

 

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So Monahan threatens the players and says, It's either us (PGA Tour) or them. This is why I personally hate the PGA Tour. Love golf. Hate the tour. Tour players are private contractors. When they got their card there was no rule that they couldn't play other tours. I hope one of the big names jumps and plays over there. Hopefully said player will sue the PGA Tour if any action is taken against him.

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In order for this to really take off, they would need not only boatloads of money but also a “fifth major”. I like to think not all pros are money hungry, and some of them want to win majors above all else.

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Putting on my tin foil hat, maybe it's all a rouse by the players to get the PGA Tour to share more of the pot.   

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1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:


 

I look at it this way.

 

It took the UK centuries and the US over a century of golf being woven into the thread of society to produce the physical infrastructure (courses, youth/college programs) and the generational family focus on the game to produce what we see today.

 

The issue with the Saudis or China is that you need all of the above to really enable what they would want to accomplish as far as having a “home grown” talent pool.

 

As far as recruiting. Pulling top players is not going to work once they are established for a few years on the PGA Tour. A guy like JT is focused on his childhood dreams of being a grand slam winner and seeing his name on the Masters menu; )

 

They would really need to recruit players right out of college, take the risk like the NFL teams do in a draft, a throw a ton of guaranteed money at players with promise but no pro track record.

 

This would be more effective on young Euro and Asian players for a number of reasons. 
 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't take that long if you really want to set up an infrastructure and will throw money at it. People do it for the Olympics all the time. Russia created a whole city for them

 

My whole point throughout this was that it's pretty clear the PGA tour is concerned about this and their reaction to it is pretty troubling. I have never seen a well run company that threatens it's employees for leaving. I am familiar with a pretty large company that does threaten employees when they leave (you're ruined in this town, you'll never work here again etc etc) and they are struggling mightily right now with morale and retention (shocking i know!)

 

it's essentially an admission that they aren't taking care of the top guys, the popularity payments is further proof of that

 

So if they don't figure it out, it's clear there are other countries with deep pockets. it doesn't even need to be other countries, maybe some alternate tour in the US even...I got fixated on other countries but it doesn't need to be. A few billionaires get together and decide to start a tour? Why not--If Vince Mcmahon can start a football league...

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14 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

The only point i was making with players being of various backrounds is that some have argued that people won't want to leave the US because they love it so much there, like there's a national pride in being there. I dont really agree with that, the US is a great place, i will likely live there within the next 10 years myself... And i could see playing pro sports in your native country as a benefit to where you'd take a slight pay cut to live at home, but anything above slight, i don't see it. But with golf >50% isn't from the US originally anyway.

 

I don't think guys who grow up in Japan or Spain or England had a dream to live in the US, it was to make millions of dollars playing golf and the US happens to be the best place to do that. That was the only reason i brought that up.

 

 

 

 

OK, yeah that makes sense.  Let me know how you are moving there.  Any place playing golf right now is better than here.

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6 minutes ago, Big GG said:

Tour players are private contractors. 

Except they really aren't. Who pays their insurance? Retirement? Who forces them to work a set number of weeks a year? When working, who forces them to participate in corporate events (pro-ams) and show up at a certain time (tee time) or face not working for the week? If someone pays you for your services, provides your benefits and tells you when you can and cannot work, they are your employer.

 

Now the real question is, has this ever been challenged in court?

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26 minutes ago, Big GG said:

So Monahan threatens the players and says, It's either us (PGA Tour) or them. This is why I personally hate the PGA Tour. Love golf. Hate the tour. Tour players are private contractors. When they got their card there was no rule that they couldn't play other tours. I hope one of the big names jumps and plays over there. Hopefully said player will sue the PGA Tour if any action is taken against him.

 

I understand this type of response by Monahan, but I agree that it is kind of a petty response.  If you qualify for the PGA Tour, you're on the Tour.  Guys who are members of the Tour play in other events all the time that are not sanctioned by the PGA Tour.  Heck, the Saudi Invitiational won by DJ in February was one of the strongest fields in golf so far this calendar year, and contained a number of PGA Tour players....was there threats made then?  Of course not.  THE MASTERS is not a sanctioned PGA Tour event for crying out loud - heck, it wasn't that long ago where the PGA Tour put on an opposite-field event to the Masters.  They have opposite field events for the WGC's.  

 

Competition isn't bad.  Why the PGA Tour is mad at this happening now is that it is going to force them to restructure how players are paid, and its going to cost the Tour a ton of cash.  You're goona see appearance fees now become commonplace.  You're now seeing this separate player fund for player popularity/interaction.  They just announced purse raises on the Korn Ferry Tour starting next year.  The PGA Tour schedule will undoubtedly be condensed in the near future.  

 

The PGA Tour is acting like an NBA, NFL or MLB owner would, but the only difference is they truly don't have any leverage over the players, who are by definition independent contractors.  Unless the PGA Tour wants to create an actual 'league' and allow its competitors to become unionized, they have to be very careful how they handle this.  Because if this new golf league does get off the ground and they throw some money at good young players just out of college or high up on the amateur ranks before the PGA Tour/KF Tour gets a hold of them, it could drain the depth and quality of the PGA Tour very quickly.

 

 

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1 minute ago, golfortennis said:

 

 

OK, yeah that makes sense.  Let me know how you are moving there.  Any place playing golf right now is better than here.

 

The past year has definitely made me think harder about it. I work for a US based company, i am actually their first and only Canadian employee. They have offered to help me move there. There's a few cities where if they set up offices i'd likely go. The current east coast ones i am not crazy about

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3 minutes ago, StlEER said:

Except they really aren't. Who pays their insurance? Retirement? Who forces them to work a set number of weeks a year? When working, who forces them to participate in corporate events (pro-ams) and show up at a certain time (tee time) or face not working for the week? If someone pays you for your services, provides your benefits and tells you when you can and cannot work, they are your employer.

 

Now the real question is, has this ever been challenged in court?

 

Tour players are independent contractors.  They aren't forced to play whenever they dont want to.  The requirements to play in a PGA Tour event or be a PGA Tour member doesnt change that.  Neither does contractual obligations signed by the player to any sponsors or equipment manufacturers....that's all done on a player-by-player basis.

 

The potential challenge in court will be if the PGA Tour tries to suspend or revoke membership if they play in this new league...because Tour members play in non-sanctioned PGA Tour events all the time.  It would be a classic discrimination case if it ever got that far.

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17 minutes ago, JaNelson38 said:

The potential challenge in court will be if the PGA Tour tries to suspend or revoke membership if they play in this new league...because Tour members play in non-sanctioned PGA Tour events all the time.  It would be a classic discrimination case if it ever got that far.

 

If I understood TGC correctly, players still have to get approved to play in those events - but as you said, this happens all the time.

 

To me there's a big difference between occasionally approving PGA Tour members to play in non-PGA Tour sanctioned events - and allowing them to take up membership full time on a directly competing tour. While also allowing them back on your tour with open arms?

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4 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

If I understood TGC correctly, players still have to get approved to play in those events - but as you said, this happens all the time.

 

To me there's a big difference between occasionally approving PGA Tour members to play in non-PGA Tour sanctioned events - and allowing them to take up membership full time on a directly competing tour. While also allowing them back on your tour with open arms?

 

The PGA Tour, IMO, would be foolish to stop anyone from playing on the PGA Tour if they played in other worldwide tours.  You then start to blurr the lines between PGA Tour players being independent contractors and actual employees.

 

What happens if the PGL is only an 8-event schedule to start?  You're gonna tell some of the best golfers in the world that they can't play in your sanctioned events for the other 8 months of the year simply out of spite?  It'd be silly.  

 

The Tour has specific membership requirements based on performance, and PGA Tour events are open to non-members to play in if they qualify via Monday qualifying, sponsors exemptions, etc.  Banning membership (or potential membership) or entry into a tournament because they play in a competiting tour starts down a slippery slope that I don't think the PGA Tour wants to venture down.

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21 minutes ago, JaNelson38 said:

 

Tour players are independent contractors.  They aren't forced to play whenever they dont want to.  The requirements to play in a PGA Tour event or be a PGA Tour member doesnt change that.  Neither does contractual obligations signed by the player to any sponsors or equipment manufacturers....that's all done on a player-by-player basis.

 

The potential challenge in court will be if the PGA Tour tries to suspend or revoke membership if they play in this new league...because Tour members play in non-sanctioned PGA Tour events all the time.  It would be a classic discrimination case if it ever got that far.

 

independent contractors != no conditions attached to PGA Tour membership

Kaymer lost membership a few years ago because he failed to meet the minimum event requirement. Guys have been suspended for drug use.

 

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2018/09/09/what-minimum-number-pga-tour-events-golfer-play-season-110741/

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4 minutes ago, cdnglf said:

 

 

independent contractors != no conditions attached to PGA Tour membership

Kaymer lost membership a few years ago because he failed to meet the minimum event requirement. Guys have been suspended for drug use.

 

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2018/09/09/what-minimum-number-pga-tour-events-golfer-play-season-110741/

 

Having rules and regulations for an independent contractor is quite common.

 

If you want to hire an independent contractor to do work on your roof, but them showing you proof of insurance before you hire them is mandatory by you, that doesn't make the roofer any less of an independent contractor.  

 

"Contract" is in the term independent contractor.  You're entering a contract to perform services for another entity, and have to abide by their rules in order to receive the compensation stated.  But you can choose not to abide by the rules, which means your employement as an independent contractor can be revoked.

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3 minutes ago, JaNelson38 said:

 

Having rules and regulations for an independent contractor is quite common.

 

If you want to hire an independent contractor to do work on your roof, but them showing you proof of insurance before you hire them is mandatory by you, that doesn't make the roofer any less of an independent contractor.  

 

"Contract" is in the term independent contractor.  You're entering a contract to perform services for another entity, and have to abide by their rules in order to receive the compensation stated.  But you can choose not to abide by the rules, which means your employement as an independent contractor can be revoked.

 

Indeed. Which is why the PGA Tour can (and almost certainly will) choose not to engage the services of those independent contractors who choose to play for the PGL.

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Just now, cdnglf said:

 

Indeed. Which is why the PGA Tour can (and almost certainly will) choose not to engage the services of those independent contractors who choose to play for the PGL.

 

Indeed they might.  And my argument is that it is not smart, and it might not hold up in court should it be challenged.

 

Most top PGA Tour members play at least some worldwide during the fall or winter seasons, whether that be in Asia, Austrailia, or the Middle East.  And get paid handsome appearance fees to do it.  All 4 major championships are not PGA Tour sanctioned events.  Unless the PGA Tour wants to completely bar member players from playing in any non-sanctioned events so every member is treated the same, they're gonna have a hard time justifying it.

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I dont think we can say whether or not they could justify it in court without knowing what the player agreement/member contract says - if there is such a thing that even exists.


Again there is a massive difference between the Tour approving a player to play in a Euro Tour event or a money grab wraparound event - and allowing players to take up membership on a tour that is a *direct* competitor. The Euro Tour is not a direct competitor, they are a partner.

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15 minutes ago, JaNelson38 said:

 

Indeed they might.  And my argument is that it is not smart, and it might not hold up in court should it be challenged.

 

Most top PGA Tour members play at least some worldwide during the fall or winter seasons, whether that be in Asia, Austrailia, or the Middle East.  And get paid handsome appearance fees to do it.  All 4 major championships are not PGA Tour sanctioned events.  Unless the PGA Tour wants to completely bar member players from playing in any non-sanctioned events so every member is treated the same, they're gonna have a hard time justifying it.


The majors aren’t run by the PGA Tour, but they are PGA Tour sanctioned. As I recall, Phil and Tiger had to get sign off on the Match from the PGA Tour.

 

There’s a big difference between giving a guy a waiver to go play 1 or 2 overseas events per year and letting him play full-time for a competing tour.

 

In the extremely unlikely event that the PGL gets off the ground, the PGA Tour will aggressively protect its turf.

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I don't see why people keep saying the majors and WGCs aren't PGA Tour sanctioned events.

 

Here's a quick tip. If an event give out FedEx cup points it's PGA Tour sanctioned/affiliated.

 

It's all speculation without seeing what the actual PGL ends up being, but assuming it gets no OWGR points then that's a big disincentive. And it's hard to see the PGA Tour awarding points for that. 

 

The top guys already have a limited schedule and taking away a bunch of starts that get points is going to end up impacting qualification for majors, etc. 

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Venture Capitalism Gone Awry 101: 

The PGL cannot make money or even get off the ground. So, find some people with money to burn to throw huge cash at the biggest stars. This puts the PGL in a position of strength to negotiate TV contracts and disrupt the PGA Tour TV contract model.   Without its biggest stars, the PGA Tour is in a much weaker position for TV negotiations. The Top 125 closed shop model which rewards mediocrity and no name players finally bears bitter fruit for the PGA Tour.

 

If the PGL gets TV revenue, it might eventually become profitable. The PGL is betting that with the biggest stars, despite its huge initial outlays and losses, it will be "too big to fail". 

 

The PGL is a house of cards but that doesn't mean some players won't defect.  

 

 

 

 "Get dressed Spaulding, you're playing golf today."
" No I'm not Grandpa, I'm playing tennis."
 "No, you're playing golf and you're going to like it."
 

 

 

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Greg Norman and Fox Sports were skewered 25 years ago by the PGA Tour and its buddies in the press for the World Golf Tour idea. The FTC was investigating the PGA Tour for restraint of trade as the tour threatened any member playing in any competing tour would be banished from the tour forever. His World Golf Tour was 40 top players and eight high dollar events and he had a TV coverage already set up.

 

Deja vu all over again and the tour is using the same (Tony Soprano-esque) playbook.

 

 

bought out by private equity.

capitalization, grammar and reasoning slashed as a cost reduction.

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1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

It doesn't take that long if you really want to set up an infrastructure and will throw money at it. People do it for the Olympics all the time. Russia created a whole city for them

 

My whole point throughout this was that it's pretty clear the PGA tour is concerned about this and their reaction to it is pretty troubling. I have never seen a well run company that threatens it's employees for leaving. I am familiar with a pretty large company that does threaten employees when they leave (you're ruined in this town, you'll never work here again etc etc) and they are struggling mightily right now with morale and retention (shocking i know!)

 

it's essentially an admission that they aren't taking care of the top guys, the popularity payments is further proof of that

 

So if they don't figure it out, it's clear there are other countries with deep pockets. it doesn't even need to be other countries, maybe some alternate tour in the US even...I got fixated on other countries but it doesn't need to be. A few billionaires get together and decide to start a tour? Why not--If Vince Mcmahon can start a football league...


For all the reasons I stated, to actually grow the talent with the infrastructure, it can take generations if not centuries.

 

Look at Hideki. Japan has been golf crazy for decades and he’s the first men’s major winner. 
 

Or, look at alpine/cross county skiing. There are counties like the US with massive resources and that field great athletes. But it’s dominated by a handful of countries that have it woven in their cultural fabric. 
 

As I said, they will need to take the same risks as NFL teams drafting/throwing money at promising but unproven talent if they want to really build a long term platform. 
 

I agree on your comments of the Tours reaction. But I think they will also have a “carrot” as well as a “stick” approach 

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I dont have pay access to a lot of these newspaper archives, but this was written almost 27 years ago:

 

"For several years, the PGA Tour has been under investigation by the FTC because the Tour says it has the right to prevent its members from competing in rival events. The FTC thinks this smells like restraint of trade. The whole issue has simmered, uneasily. The Tour keeps issuing "waivers" to its players whenever they ask for permission to be in other events, thus defusing the issue and weakening any FTC case. Now, pushed to the wall by the imminent WGT threat, PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem announced defiantly this week that he would not allow PGA Tour players to participate in any World Golf Tour events, all of which would conflict with the American tour."

 

 

And after more than five years of looking, the FTC dismissed the whole thing because they found no proof of anything.

 

25+ years later, the Tour is booming. Sponsor/endorsement dollars are massive, TV contracts are off the charts.  Players are playing all over the world, in events sanctioned or not sanctioned - in season and out of season - including as many silly season money grabs as they can get their hands on. Even players way down the money list are making millions. Best of luck proving restraint of trade.

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1 hour ago, JaNelson38 said:

 

The PGA Tour, IMO, would be foolish to stop anyone from playing on the PGA Tour if they played in other worldwide tours.  You then start to blurr the lines between PGA Tour players being independent contractors and actual employees.

 

What happens if the PGL is only an 8-event schedule to start?  You're gonna tell some of the best golfers in the world that they can't play in your sanctioned events for the other 8 months of the year simply out of spite?  It'd be silly.  

 

The Tour has specific membership requirements based on performance, and PGA Tour events are open to non-members to play in if they qualify via Monday qualifying, sponsors exemptions, etc.  Banning membership (or potential membership) or entry into a tournament because they play in a competiting tour starts down a slippery slope that I don't think the PGA Tour wants to venture down.

Sounds like the players agreed to it.

 

According to several players, Monahan made it clear that joining the PGL would mean an automatic suspension from the PGA Tour and the possibility of a permanent expulsion. According to a PGA Tour official, such an action is part of the tour's regulations and has been approved by the players.

 

https://africa.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/31394037/phil-mickelson-bash-super-league-others-do

Titleist TSi3 driver AV Raw White 65g 

Titleist TSi3 3W AV Raw White 65g

Titleist TSi3 3H  AV Raw HY 75g

PXG Gen 5, 0311T 6-AW, 0311P 4-5

Taylormade MG4 54*

Taylormade MG4 58*

Argolf Putter

Vice Pro-Soft balls

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  • 1t2golf changed the title to PGL offers DJ, Rose $30 million each (***MERGED***)

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