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I have a question. Have tried to find an answer myself for quite a while. Just curious more than anything…

 

Let’s take Pro V1 vs Pro V1X. All things equal.. launch angle, strike, etc.. let’s say you hit it with the face a little open and that ball is going to fade. Which ball will fly straighter? A “higher spin” like the V1X or a “lower spin” like the V?? Hopefully someone can 100% answer this. I’m very curious. 

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For the sake of argument, say that the spin rate difference between any two golf balls on a center strike off a driver is 200 rpms.  The numbers have been posted before, but let's agree that 200 rpms

However, it’s incorrect (though confusing) that a higher spin ball will necessarily curve more. The reason isn’t particularly obvious as well.  1. A sphere, or ball, can only have one spin axis. The

Less technical answer than those above,  I have played all 3 ProV models and I find that the left dash ProV1x has the least amount of curvature/side spin off the driver in my hands, all other things b

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I believe this would have to do more with the dimple patters vs the cores of the ball. I'm sure the spin characteristics do play a role but the dimples play the biggest role. 

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Hard to say offhand.  The V1x is a 4 piece ball and the V1 is 3 piece. I’m sure there’s a difference in side spin off the driver, but not sure which would be higher.

Someone here knows.  Will be watching this thread to find out.

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The issue is the difference between the V1 and V1x is less than 100rpms. That's just about negligible when you factor in difference in strike quality in amateur golfers.

 

As I understand it, backspin keeps helps keep the ball in the air and it is the spin-axis that produces curvature of flight. So technically, the higher spinning ball will produce more curvature.

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3 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

@rondre3000 is correct that the V1 family is a bad example.

 

BDEB7BE6-54B7-4799-89B3-F534E184A879.png

The robot test above is invalid...the ball was hit perfectly square.  The OP is asking about a strike with an open face and whether one ball will fly straighter than another. Curvature is a function of spin, tilt angle, dimple pattern and probably ball speed off the face.

 

Ultimately the information is not known because neither human testers or robot testers record that type of information. The ball that spins more is likely the ball that curves more but I'm not sure.  

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However, it’s incorrect (though confusing) that a higher spin ball will necessarily curve more. The reason isn’t particularly obvious as well. 
1. A sphere, or ball, can only have one spin axis. Therefore, there is no inherent back-spin component that can “stabilize” its flight.

2. A ball that’s designed to have reduced spin must have a more aggressive (higher lift) dimple pattern to keep the ball in the air, since its aerodynamics are a combination of spin and lift. In the presence of spin that’s not in line with the direction of travel, the aggressive pattern will produce greater side motion.

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2 minutes ago, rwbloom93 said:

The robot test above is invalid...the ball was hit perfectly square.  The OP is asking about a strike with an open face and whether one ball will fly straighter than another. Curvature is a function of spin, tilt angle, dimple pattern and probably ball speed off the face.

 

Ultimately the information is not known because neither human testers or robot testers record that type of information. The ball that spins more is likely the ball that curves more but I'm not sure.  


You are incorrect. Spin is spin. Its axis is irrelevant.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:


You are incorrect. Spin is spin. Its axis is irrelevant.

The angle of tilt (off vertical) after a ball is struck by the club is the reason it curves (along with backspin).

 

For example...If a ball is struck squarely such that it's back spin is purely vertical it will not curve.  However, if the clubface "wipes" across the ball producing backspin with a tilt angle (say 5 degrees off vertical) the ball will curve.

 

The axis created by the strike is key.

 

Regards  

Edited by rwbloom93
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Less technical answer than those above,  I have played all 3 ProV models and I find that the left dash ProV1x has the least amount of curvature/side spin off the driver in my hands, all other things being equal.

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For the sake of argument, say that the spin rate difference between any two golf balls on a center strike off a driver is 200 rpms.  The numbers have been posted before, but let's agree that 200 rpms is NOT enough to significantly change curvature of a golf ball.

 

Now change the face angle at impact, or change the swing path, or hit each ball off center; whatever.  For the curvature for one ball to now be significantly more than the other, the spin rate differences would have to somehow change disproportionately, so that the difference grows from 200 rpms to something much larger.  And that just makes no sense at all.

 

If testing shows that the difference between a ProV1 and a ProV1x is 100 rpms off the driver, then that ratio is going to be valid regardless of path or face angle or smash factor or anything else.  If you hit a ProV1 with a driver in such a manner as to add spin with a tilted spin axis, it will of course curve more, but if you hit the ProV1x the same way, the ratio between the two balls doesn't change in a "non-linear" amount, and the amount of curvature isn't different by any significant amount.

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From personal experience I hit the ProV1x straighter than the ProV1 assuming it's a clean strike.  Even mis hits tend to go a little straighter.  I'm naturally a high spin player so it may have something to do with that. 

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4 hours ago, Kruegs_4 said:

Golf balls move because of the magnus effect just like a baseball. Higher spin rate will move more

Yes and I also believe the ball designed to maximize spin would also have a greater tilt angle leading to even more offline movement.

 

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Granted, I've only played 2 rounds so far. But these Spalding Pure Speed seem arrow straight. Not crazy distance, but went exactly where I was hoping for. 

 

I am playing in the morning, so I will see if they are straight or I'm crazy. They are also $10 a dozen, so there is that. I know some of y'all can't play anything less than a 3 piece urethane.

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On 5/19/2021 at 9:47 PM, Texas Golfer said:

My understanding of 4 and 5 piece golf ball is that the layering is supposed to minimize spin on long clubs, while maintaining a high spin on short irons.  Is this generally correct?

It's more than generally correct; it's the basis of current golf ball technology. 

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On 5/19/2021 at 6:47 PM, Texas Golfer said:

My understanding of 4 and 5 piece golf ball is that the layering is supposed to minimize spin on long clubs, while maintaining a high spin on short irons.  Is this generally correct?

That's what all these major OEMs are marketing and from what I see I generally observe it to be true. 

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On 5/19/2021 at 6:47 PM, Texas Golfer said:

My understanding of 4 and 5 piece golf ball is that the layering is supposed to minimize spin on long clubs, while maintaining a high spin on short irons.  Is this generally correct?

This is true, but has little to do with straightness. It has to do with distance. More spin means less distance (generally, there is a certain amount of spin you need depending on your ball speed and launch angle), so reducing spin with longer clubs makes them go longer.

 

The reason manufacturers push low spin balls to players is partly a feel thing (people like softer balls and softer balls spin less), but there is also some performance reasons. A softer ball will lose ball speed with a driver, however you can make most of that up by spinning less. So at <100MPH swings a soft ball like the chromesoft will spin enough less than the chromesoft x so that you make up most of the distance form the loss of ball speed with reduced spin. Then on all your other shots, the reduced spin gains you about a half a club of distance. Since most amateurs miss short, giving them extra distance on their iron shots and allowing those iron shots to run up to the green a little better will actually help them. Of course you can also get the well struck flier.

 

All that being said, the spin is about distance and not really about curvature. The amount of curvature caused by the spin differences in a ball is basically zero. If you want to prove this yourself. Use the flightscope trajectory optimizer. If you have two shots with 145MPH ball speed, 15* launch, and 45* spin axis; you will see that changing the spin from 2000 to 5000 RPMs doesn't make a huge difference in curvature. The higher spin ball does curve more, but it also doesn't fly as far meaning the amount off line isn't going to be all that much different. And 2000 vs 5000 RPM is not realistic for the difference between two balls. Make them 2000 and 2500 RPM and you will struggle to see the difference.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/26/2021 at 1:28 PM, arbeck said:

This is true, but has little to do with straightness. It has to do with distance. More spin means less distance (generally, there is a certain amount of spin you need depending on your ball speed and launch angle), so reducing spin with longer clubs makes them go longer.

 

The reason manufacturers push low spin balls to players is partly a feel thing (people like softer balls and softer balls spin less), but there is also some performance reasons. A softer ball will lose ball speed with a driver, however you can make most of that up by spinning less. So at <100MPH swings a soft ball like the chromesoft will spin enough less than the chromesoft x so that you make up most of the distance form the loss of ball speed with reduced spin. Then on all your other shots, the reduced spin gains you about a half a club of distance. Since most amateurs miss short, giving them extra distance on their iron shots and allowing those iron shots to run up to the green a little better will actually help them. Of course you can also get the well struck flier.

 

All that being said, the spin is about distance and not really about curvature. The amount of curvature caused by the spin differences in a ball is basically zero. If you want to prove this yourself. Use the flightscope trajectory optimizer. If you have two shots with 145MPH ball speed, 15* launch, and 45* spin axis; you will see that changing the spin from 2000 to 5000 RPMs doesn't make a huge difference in curvature. The higher spin ball does curve more, but it also doesn't fly as far meaning the amount off line isn't going to be all that much different. And 2000 vs 5000 RPM is not realistic for the difference between two balls. Make them 2000 and 2500 RPM and you will struggle to see the difference.

 

Your second paragraph is very well stated, it is in essence what I discovered in 2018 when testing balls in an open field (and on a course) for over a year. I would also add the softer balls are much more forgiving (especially distance wise) on slightly off-center strikes.  I find Tour balls to be inferior, overall, to all lower compression urethane balls and most lower compression ionomer balls for my 85 mph swing speed.

 

Your last paragraph I'm not as sure about. While 500 rpm's may not add much curve I think spin axis can't be assumed to be constant. Whatever design feature of ball "A" that allows it to spin more than ball "B" probably also tilts the axis more when intentionally shaped by a skilled player or inadvertently shaped by your average Joe.  I think it's a few hundred rpm's of spin coupled with few more degrees of tilt that increases the curve for say, a Tour ball over, over a softer ball (especially Ionomer cover).  

 

Just a guess.

 

Regards    

 

Edited by rwbloom93
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After playing the Maxfli Tour for the last year, I recently started playing the Bridgestone e12 Contact.  I find that the e12 is equal to the Maxfli in total distance and does tend to spin a little less, so it is somewhat easier to keep it on my target line.  Do I still miss the fairway?  Sure, when struck with an open or closed face depending on the swing path, but generally, it seems to react less than the Maxfli.

 

FYI - the e12 is a 3 piece ball with an ionomer cover.  I've seen some testing and the spin is comparable to tour balls because of a new dimple design. 

 

I've been pretty pleased with the performance and have been playing it interchangeably with the Maxfli Tour.  The one thing I like about the e12 is that it has a lower compression so it feels softer, yet has good feedback off the driver, irons, and especially the putter.

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On 5/26/2021 at 4:19 PM, rwbloom93 said:

 

Your second paragraph is very well stated, it is in essence what I discovered in 2018 when testing balls in an open field (and on a course) for over year. I would also add the softer balls are much more forgiving (especially distance wise) on slightly off-center strikes.  I find Tour balls to be inferior, overall, to all lower compression urethane balls and most lower compression ionomer balls for my 85 mph swing speed.

 

Your last paragraph I'm not as sure about. While 500 rpm's may not add much curve I think spin axis can't be assumed to be constant. Whatever design feature of ball "A" that allows it to spin more than ball "B" probably also tilts the axis more when intentionally shaped by a skilled player or inadvertently shaped by your average Joe.  I think it's a few hundred rpm's of spin coupled with few more degrees of tilt that increases the curve for say, a Tour ball over, over a softer ball (especially Ionomer cover).  

 

Just a guess.

 

Regards    

 

 

Spin axis is 100% a function of the loft, path and face angle of the club. Any two balls will have the same spin axis if hit with the same delivery numbers. The total amount of spin can change from ball to ball, but the axis will be exactly the same.

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On 6/3/2021 at 12:56 PM, arbeck said:

 

Spin axis is 100% a function of the loft, path and face angle of the club. Any two balls will have the same spin axis if hit with the same delivery numbers. The total amount of spin can change from ball to ball, but the axis will be exactly the same.

 

Careful with facts, arbeck!  The belief in magical golf balls runs deep here.  Cheap balls that are more forgiving, premium balls that perform worse for bad players, balls that are unaffected by wind, and so on.  We are living in a physics-free zone.

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On 5/26/2021 at 10:28 AM, arbeck said:

This is true, but has little to do with straightness. It has to do with distance. More spin means less distance (generally, there is a certain amount of spin you need depending on your ball speed and launch angle), so reducing spin with longer clubs makes them go longer.

 

The reason manufacturers push low spin balls to players is partly a feel thing (people like softer balls and softer balls spin less), but there is also some performance reasons. A softer ball will lose ball speed with a driver, however you can make most of that up by spinning less. So at <100MPH swings a soft ball like the chromesoft will spin enough less than the chromesoft x so that you make up most of the distance form the loss of ball speed with reduced spin. Then on all your other shots, the reduced spin gains you about a half a club of distance. Since most amateurs miss short, giving them extra distance on their iron shots and allowing those iron shots to run up to the green a little better will actually help them. Of course you can also get the well struck flier.

 

All that being said, the spin is about distance and not really about curvature. The amount of curvature caused by the spin differences in a ball is basically zero. If you want to prove this yourself. Use the flightscope trajectory optimizer. If you have two shots with 145MPH ball speed, 15* launch, and 45* spin axis; you will see that changing the spin from 2000 to 5000 RPMs doesn't make a huge difference in curvature. The higher spin ball does curve more, but it also doesn't fly as far meaning the amount off line isn't going to be all that much different. And 2000 vs 5000 RPM is not realistic for the difference between two balls. Make them 2000 and 2500 RPM and you will struggle to see the difference.

I believe science/physics tells us that the the lower spin ball will be longer PROVIDED that golfers makes enough ss/ball speed.  Obviously, the lower ss golfer will need more back spin than the higher ss golfer so that the ball doesn't abruptly fall out of the sky.  The lower spin ball tends to also be less accurate because the tendency is to curve more side ways on mis hits.  To what degree depends on a lot of factors.  I do believe that face angle and swing path have more to do with that than the ball itself, so I agree with you that the ball isn't going to be the biggest factor in determining curvature.   

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On 6/3/2021 at 12:56 PM, arbeck said:

 

Spin axis is 100% a function of the loft, path and face angle of the club. Any two balls will have the same spin axis if hit with the same delivery numbers. The total amount of spin can change from ball to ball, but the axis will be exactly the same.

I don't think it is possible for the axis to be the same for every ball (provided the same delivery) because of the friction force between face and ball will vary with ball construction.

 

Regards

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3 minutes ago, rwbloom93 said:

Why would a lower spin ball curve more on mishits?

Back spin is what keeps a ball straight.  So lower back spin can lead to more curve on mis hits.  I can see why you would ask this question.  From a certain angle it makes no sense.  Let's see if I can get @Stuart_G and @Valtiel to give you a better answer.  These 2 guys are way more acknowledgeable than I am when it comes to golf science. 

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2 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Back spin is what keeps a ball straight.  So lower back spin can lead to more curve on mis hits.  I can see why you would ask this question.  From a certain angle it makes no sense.  Let's see if I can get @Stuart_G and @Valtiel to give you a better answer.  These 2 guys are way more acknowledgeable than I am when it comes to golf science. 

Thanks.

 

I think backspin (neglecting trajectory) can hold a line better in a cross wind but a mishit (depending on the type) creates tilt which a higher spin ball will curve more (even if only fractionally). 

 

Regards

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