Can hips be open at impact, if you have low swing speed

[harry1252]

If you are swinging at low swing speeds (driver < 100mph say), is it possible to see hips open at impact ?

 

All my impact positions show hips square, shoulders square (and I also have early extension) ...  I can post videos but i am looking to get some thoughts on the question above

 

thanks,

[harry1252]

Here is a recent swing .... trying to exaggerate the squat to get the rotation going

Edited May 10, 2021 by harry1252

[Valtiel]

Absolutely, just look at some of the LPGA players around those speeds and how open they can get at impact. It is not a matter of speed, but of sequencing and flexibility. 



The issue with your approach is that you're making the fairly common/normal mistake of trying to apply fixes/changes during the wrong part of your swing.

As an example, my uncle has a classic severe early extension and over the top club path, and the early extending causes him to thin/skull/top the ball a lot. In his mind, he felt he just needed to lower his hands more at address to get closer to the ball so he would stop topping it. This is an example of the right idea but applied to the wrong end of the swing. Lower hands at address made his over the top move even more pronounced which then made him early extend more. The goal is to have your hands lower at impact, not at address, and this ties in to what you're doing. 

Your address position looks alright, but right out of the gate you are squatting down in your takeaway, which is backwards. If you're going to work on exaggerating a squat move, you don't do it in your takeaway, you do it in transition down to the ball. Your early extension is coming from this backwards application of a squat move, because in squatting during your takeaway and maintaining tons of knee flex, you have nothing to do but extend from there, which is exactly the first thing you do in transition. This too is backwards. The basic order of lower body action should be:

Neutral (Address) -> Neutral/slight extension (Takeaway) -> Beginning of squat/downward movement (Transition) -> Full squat w/rotation (Downswing) -> Release and extension (Impact)

Neutral -> slightly up -> slightly down -> more down -> up

And your order in the video above is:

Neutral (Address) -> Down (Takeaway) -> Slight Extension (Transition) -> More extension (Downswing) -> More extension (Impact)

Neutral -> down -> slightly up -> more up-> up

Hopefully that makes sense and illustrates what the problem is and how you should reorder things. I should also stress that all of these moves above will vary in application and severity, but all within the same framework. Some players will extend a decent amount in their backswings, others will stay pretty neutral. Some will squat a lot, some very little. But however those movement occur, the overall framework of neutral/up in the backswing and neutral/down in the downswing is pretty much universal. 

[Righty to Lefty]

4 hours ago, harry1252 said:

If you are swinging at low swing speeds (driver < 100mph say), is it possible to see hips open at impact ?

 

All my impact positions show hips square, shoulders square (and I also have early extension) ...  I can post videos but i am looking to get some thoughts on the question above

 

thanks,

Yes if you use the ground properly.  If you attempt to manufacture a certain position then you will still be inefficient.  You have to find the one trigger that sets off a chain of events in your swing so that it happens naturally.  Are you familiar with ground forces? I don't want get too wordy and try to get to the point but your feet, and your hands for that matter are working in opposition to each other. Your feet actually should be trying to twist the ground away from each other and this sets off the chain of events that setup the backswing and then the opposite happens in the down swing. If you oppose the movement of the club you will remain stable but if you go in the same direction as the club you will move off of your center.  In your downswing your are early extending when you should actually be squatting and rotating which will work in opposition to the club moving down and away from you.  It is super difficult to explain without writing an essay so I will post a couple videos that should dramatically help.  This video talks about the feet driving the down swing but they also drive the backswing. 

 

 

Squat and Rotate

 

[harry1252]

Thanks for the responses so far.

 

I understand the theory of it all, but unable to sequence it properly.

Today at the range I tried a variety of things:

a) Stand tall through backswing (no squatting), and then squat & rotate through downswing

b) Keep your head down, so spine angle doesnt go upright in the downswing

C) Pull hard from the left shoulder and keep the right wrist bent to retain angle (& delay the impact)

etc. etc.

 

No matter what feel I try, the body positions on the video remain the same. In my mind, just the sheer act of impact, changes my spring angle ... so I dont know what to do - very frustrated.

 

Here is another video from today ... and you can see me rehearsing one of the above, but the swing with the ball looks the same

 

 

[Valtiel]

8 hours ago, harry1252 said:

Thanks for the responses so far.

 

I understand the theory of it all, but unable to sequence it properly.

Today at the range I tried a variety of things:

a) Stand tall through backswing (no squatting), and then squat & rotate through downswing

b) Keep your head down, so spine angle doesnt go upright in the downswing

C) Pull hard from the left shoulder and keep the right wrist bent to retain angle (& delay the impact)

etc. etc.

 

No matter what feel I try, the body positions on the video remain the same. In my mind, just the sheer act of impact, changes my spring angle ... so I dont know what to do - very frustrated.

 

Here is another video from today ... and you can see me rehearsing one of the above, but the swing with the ball looks the same

 

 

Normally the issue of making all the same movements despite very different intent and rehearsals is due to focusing on the wrong area. The problem with the golf swing is that we will do things unconsciously and then our brain will compensate unconsciously as well, leaving us in a position where we not only don't know what we're doing, but we don't know how our brain is compensating for what we don't know. 😓

As a result it is good to look at not only your intent but the very first moves you are making as these can be the beginning of the chain of events that leads to fatal swing flaws. 



Let's start with the first two things you're doing wrong. In Panel #2 we'll first look at the club and how it has immediately worked back very inside and wide open. See the clubface angle vs. your spine angle, normally you want them fairly close and they are not. You need to work on taking the club back much more squarely (will likely feel shut to you) and keep the head much more even with your hands (see the disembodied iron head with the green line). This will likely feel very steep to you given how flat you are right now, so just keep "steep and shut" in your mind for your feel to neutralize that. 

You have also done the squat thing we talked about, so right out of the gate these are both significant foundational problems that require a lot of compensation. You have also begun what is a bad hip rotation which we'll see in the next panel. At the top of your swing we see three major red flags. Number one is the open face which has continued from panel #2 and the cupped wrist that has come along with it. Number two is how deep and disconnected your hands are. The line going down to the ground shows that they are behind your back foot, which would be considered a long way behind you. Combine this with the open clubface and you're not in a good position to get down to the ball squarely without a lot of compensation. Please note the disembodied hands and club with the green line, this is closer to where you hands should be with the clubface more square and the club itself pointing a little more to the left. All of this should happen naturally if your takeaway is steeper and more shut back in panel #2. The third thing is your hips and how you have rotated them incorrectly. Notice the solid line behind your butt in panel #1 and how far you have moved off it in panel #3. This loss of hip depth is a result of you swinging your left hip out in front of you more than you are dropping your right hip back. This pulls your center of gravity towards the ball and adds another flaw that must be compensated for. You want to feel more like your right hip is turning back behind you and staying against the red line on your butt. 

Everything I have laid out up until this point is why you feel stuck and can not change your body movements. Panel #3 handcuffs to only a few options to make contact with the ball. The hardest option is rerouting to get on plane while aggressively closing the clubface early so you don't have to save it at the end while also trying to salvage what little hip depth you have left by turning your left hip hard backwards to make room for your hands. This isn't really practical though, so you're left with two other options; reroute over the top and get really steep so you can swing left to avoid blocking the ball a mile right, or drop your hands back down on the same inside path you came up and try to save the clubface right before impact. You are doing the latter which is what we see in panel #4. The clubface is way inside, and you have already early extended and lost more hip depth. That combined with the open clubface forces you to stall your rotation to give you time to square it up. This results in the dreaded....



....goat hump. Your butt should be back against or at least much closer to that line, and the red dot shows that even though your hands came down inside, you still ended up well above where they were at address. See Adam Scott for an idea of the goal. And don't think you need to be a world class pro to get to a good impact position, you just to understand how to rotate correctly, stay on plane (or know how to find your way back to it), and minimize the number of things you need to compensate for in the downswing by setting them up correctly in the backswing and in transition. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Valtiel

[jetandollie]

I think the thought in your head of turning your hips open is hurting you. Being focused on hitting certain positions that are static is extremely difficult to do - because the golf swing is anything but static. You have so many notes on positions throughout your post, but you are neglecting impact - which is the most important. 

 

Something that helped me (very much in the same position) was to practice impact only. Research what the right impact position is, get into it, then hit small chip/pitch shots from it to get the feel of where I wanted to be. Rather than "turning" my hips, I tried to pull my lead him straight back right at impact.

 

If you stand in a mirror and watch yourself, pulling your lead hip back causes your pelvis to rotate and hips to open. It is much easier to time pulling your lead hip back in a straight line with impact than it is to time rotating your pelvis and body and not get ahead of your arms, forcing a stall and a flip though impact like you have in the video. 

 

Once you establish the right impact position and get the feel of pulling your lead hip back at the same time as impact, you can take it a step further and start pulling your hip back as soon as force shifts into your lead leg/heel. As soon as that hits, you want to feel like you are pushing away. Forcing the squat will promote the opposite. 

 

If you want to try this and get a feel for it, next time you are at home or in the back yard, find a higher chair or bar stool. Put it flush to the back of your hips/butt. Take a backswing and then in transition and right after sit back on the chair and swing through. That will promote the feeling of the squat you are trying to do and instinctively, you will have to push away with your body (lead leg/hip) to allow the club room to pass on the swing and not hit yourself. 

 

You may find it much easier to get what you are looking for by establishing impact position, hitting small shots, then timing your lead hip pulling back in a straight line at impact than squatting and turning. 

[harry1252]

First of all thanks Valtiel, I really, truly appreciate you spending the time to analyze and then send a detailed response with all the visuals. 

And Jetandollie - yes that’s part of my self analysis & reflection -  that chasing positions is so hard, hence my initial question was framed as - can i achieve these positions at low swing speeds.

 

Over the last year or so, I have changed my practice sessions to be with video so I can make sure “feel” = “correct position”. I suspect years of practice with just ball trajectory has led to bad habits that have gotten very cemented.

 

My immediate goal is a) to see the left butt at impact and b) shoulders open at impact and some bend in the right elbow

(I do understand Valtiel’s point on foundational/upstream problems will lead to downstream compensations ... so I will focus on piece by piece from the start)

 

I will do some more taped practice sessions and post another video to check on progress with you guys.